The Logic of Gay Marriage Equality
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OK thats great but whats your point? Its not going to stop people from being gay? do you just suggest we kill them all? im sure most of them in the US have heard about christ and how homosexuality is a sin...they dont care. you arent going to stop their behavior. IF this nation was founded on christian values"it wasnt, they were deists for the most part" then those values flew the coop a long time ago. Unless you advocate murdering peple based on sexuality to purify the nation there arent solutions to this issue. sooner or later they are going to be allowed to marry. Its common sense. all the energy put into fighting it isnt going to change anything.
L
I think there are basically two types of judging (among Christians), righteous judgment and unrighteous judgment. Righteous judgment is where you realize someone is sinning, or doing something incorrectly, so out of the love of Christ you try to correct them. Unrighteous judgment is where you see someone sinning, or doing something incorrectly, and point out there error just because you can. Usually unrighteous judgment is coupled with pride. You have a sense of superiority, and so you correct people to try and make yourself feel better. With righteous judgment, it is only about your desire for everyone to be holy like Jesus, because you know this will make their lives better and please God.
C
That seems like an odd suggestion in light of the fact that virtually everyone has been arguing that their immorality shouldn't be privileged with government approval.
So it seems rather obvious that our suggestion would be to try to prevent them acquiring that privileged position, not that we should kill them all.
In fact, your remark looks like a knee-jerk reaction that I would expect to hear from an atheist.
Actually, we did in some states. Like California with Prop. 8. We've done it in FL too... So there is no point in taking a defeatist attitude about it.
I don't know to what extent that's the case. If it is entirely true, then how did Prop 8 ever get passed to begin with?
Voting against it seems to be one way to prevent them from acquiring gov't sanction... I'm not sure why you think we only have two choices: embrace gay marriage or murder them all.
Well that may be the case. But not many people would be convinced with the defeatist attitude of "If we are going to lose eventually let's just give up now!"
So it seems rather obvious that our suggestion would be to try to prevent them acquiring that privileged position, not that we should kill them all.
In fact, your remark looks like a knee-jerk reaction that I would expect to hear from an atheist.
Actually, we did in some states. Like California with Prop. 8. We've done it in FL too... So there is no point in taking a defeatist attitude about it.
I don't know to what extent that's the case. If it is entirely true, then how did Prop 8 ever get passed to begin with?
Voting against it seems to be one way to prevent them from acquiring gov't sanction... I'm not sure why you think we only have two choices: embrace gay marriage or murder them all.
Well that may be the case. But not many people would be convinced with the defeatist attitude of "If we are going to lose eventually let's just give up now!"
R
I would never condemn anyone personally we are not judges.
Homosexual behavior is condemned in The Bible. Romans 1 verses 23-31 says it all.
There is no such thing as a Homosexual Christian either. Either someone is A Repented Sinner or they are not a Christian.
Many churches welcome Homosexuals and admit them into their Church, this is not even close to being right. We will welcome any sinner to our Church but if they don't have a willing desire to change their sinful lifestyle, they can still attend, like any other person can do as well. My heart goes out to all sinners, no matter what they have done. We are to Love everyone and not play Judge. The Judge sits on his throne...
Satan is a liar, and wants everyone to accept all sin as being Acceptable even for self-proclaimed "Christians'.
Homosexual behavior is condemned in The Bible. Romans 1 verses 23-31 says it all.
There is no such thing as a Homosexual Christian either. Either someone is A Repented Sinner or they are not a Christian.
Many churches welcome Homosexuals and admit them into their Church, this is not even close to being right. We will welcome any sinner to our Church but if they don't have a willing desire to change their sinful lifestyle, they can still attend, like any other person can do as well. My heart goes out to all sinners, no matter what they have done. We are to Love everyone and not play Judge. The Judge sits on his throne...
Satan is a liar, and wants everyone to accept all sin as being Acceptable even for self-proclaimed "Christians'.
Actually everything ive heard at my church is anti-gay marriage. So its not them. And If Jeans, Polos, and Chris Tomlin songs are super-contemporary, you are from a different time period all together.
And the prop 8 argument doesnt really fit credo since it was struck down the other day...for being unconstitutional...you know NOT in agreeance with the original document written by those "christian" founding fathers.
And the prop 8 argument doesnt really fit credo since it was struck down the other day...for being unconstitutional...you know NOT in agreeance with the original document written by those "christian" founding fathers.
A
This only actually works when you bother to read and work to comprehend what I write before responding with two posts that show you don't have the slightest clue.
In fact, go reread everything I wrote in this thread and only when you have properly understood it reply.
That way we will have some semblance of a discussion. Thank you for cooperating in your own intellectual growth. Peace.
In fact, go reread everything I wrote in this thread and only when you have properly understood it reply.
That way we will have some semblance of a discussion. Thank you for cooperating in your own intellectual growth. Peace.
J
I have to agree that there is something in this. I firmly believe that the gay movement couldn't have pulled any of this off unless straight folk in the west hadn't already made a joke of marriage. That's where our agreement ends, though. I think it a backward solution to put marriage out of its misery.
Shard, would you be insulted if I said you sound rather utilitarian?
Shard, would you be insulted if I said you sound rather utilitarian?
C
I have no idea what this means. I'm indifferent about jeans, I like polos, and I've never heard of Chris Tomlin.
i. The Proposition 8 argument demonstrates that--in California of all places!--the majority of people disapproved of gay marriage.
The fact that it was struck down by one gay activist judge (yes, he is gay, see here: Breaking Barriers: Edward DuMont, praised by colleagues as ''brilliant,'' would be the first openly gay federal appellate judge in the country: News section: Metro Weekly magazine, Washington, DC newspaper) doesn't discredit my point. Of course a gay activist judge is going to try to push for the legitimization of gay marriage and say that, unless we privilege it, we are being unconstitutional.
Let's say that by some fluke we get a sexist judge elected in New York. And with a bang of his gavel he strikes down women's suffrage.
Are you going to take that as an indication that we can never have women's suffrage again and the day for that has passed? Are you going to take a defeatist attitude towards women's suffrage?
I'm sure you would just think the judge is an idiot and chalk his decision up to him being sexist, even if he does try to rationalize it as being unconstitutional for women to vote. So I'm not why you think the fact that a gay judge overturned Prop 8 has any significance. Isn't that exactly what we would expect a gay judge to do, no matter what the will of the majority of the people is?
ii. So what was the rationale of the California judge? He said he struck down Prop 8 because it was based on irrational things like “a desire to advance the belief that opposite-sex couples are morally superior to same-sex couples.”
So do you agree with that or not? Isn't it true that heterosexual relationships are morally superior to homosexual relationships.
If you disagree with the rationale of the judge in striking down Prop 8, then you would have to say the judge struck down Prop 8 for irrational and misguided reasons. So I really don't see how appealing to his irrational and misguided decision will help bolster your own position.
i. The Proposition 8 argument demonstrates that--in California of all places!--the majority of people disapproved of gay marriage.
The fact that it was struck down by one gay activist judge (yes, he is gay, see here: Breaking Barriers: Edward DuMont, praised by colleagues as ''brilliant,'' would be the first openly gay federal appellate judge in the country: News section: Metro Weekly magazine, Washington, DC newspaper) doesn't discredit my point. Of course a gay activist judge is going to try to push for the legitimization of gay marriage and say that, unless we privilege it, we are being unconstitutional.
Let's say that by some fluke we get a sexist judge elected in New York. And with a bang of his gavel he strikes down women's suffrage.
Are you going to take that as an indication that we can never have women's suffrage again and the day for that has passed? Are you going to take a defeatist attitude towards women's suffrage?
I'm sure you would just think the judge is an idiot and chalk his decision up to him being sexist, even if he does try to rationalize it as being unconstitutional for women to vote. So I'm not why you think the fact that a gay judge overturned Prop 8 has any significance. Isn't that exactly what we would expect a gay judge to do, no matter what the will of the majority of the people is?
ii. So what was the rationale of the California judge? He said he struck down Prop 8 because it was based on irrational things like “a desire to advance the belief that opposite-sex couples are morally superior to same-sex couples.”
So do you agree with that or not? Isn't it true that heterosexual relationships are morally superior to homosexual relationships.
If you disagree with the rationale of the judge in striking down Prop 8, then you would have to say the judge struck down Prop 8 for irrational and misguided reasons. So I really don't see how appealing to his irrational and misguided decision will help bolster your own position.
M
I find it difficult to understand why this has become a recurring issue in the USA, I see the news reports about how it's allowed and then disallowed etc...
Putting aside all the arguments about right or wrong the reality is the gay community isn't going away and as someone else pointed out the laws of our countries do not run parrallel to christian beliefs and so believing in love and tolerance we need to work a way to co-exist without compromising oursleves.....that's the tough part.
Not to widen the discussion to laws in other countries but in the UK we have civil unions, gay couples get the legal rights of a married couple and the acknowledgement of their relationship that they rather bizzarely seem to almost obsessively crave....and as a result the christian community does not compromise in it's vews and avoids getting into the argument of violating people's rights by refusing to marry gay couples etc...
It isn't perfect and there are problems with it but for the most part this issue doesn't make the radar over here....to be honest I don't see it's a diffcult problem to solve and it seems to be a case where the USA is making a problem for itself by trying reconile an issue to the constitution that wasn't prevelant in society when the document was written.
Whenever I see this in the news I fail to see the logic in it, no logic on either side.
Putting aside all the arguments about right or wrong the reality is the gay community isn't going away and as someone else pointed out the laws of our countries do not run parrallel to christian beliefs and so believing in love and tolerance we need to work a way to co-exist without compromising oursleves.....that's the tough part.
Not to widen the discussion to laws in other countries but in the UK we have civil unions, gay couples get the legal rights of a married couple and the acknowledgement of their relationship that they rather bizzarely seem to almost obsessively crave....and as a result the christian community does not compromise in it's vews and avoids getting into the argument of violating people's rights by refusing to marry gay couples etc...
It isn't perfect and there are problems with it but for the most part this issue doesn't make the radar over here....to be honest I don't see it's a diffcult problem to solve and it seems to be a case where the USA is making a problem for itself by trying reconile an issue to the constitution that wasn't prevelant in society when the document was written.
Whenever I see this in the news I fail to see the logic in it, no logic on either side.
The first quote was directed at santo subiti(sp?)
Well I didnt know the judge was gay which adds a little but I still agree with the reasoning. I mean its two consensually aged adults wanting to live together in a legally recognized pairing...the majority of them arent christians, so while the rule still applies to them they are under no constraints that force them to follow it.
Well I didnt know the judge was gay which adds a little but I still agree with the reasoning. I mean its two consensually aged adults wanting to live together in a legally recognized pairing...the majority of them arent christians, so while the rule still applies to them they are under no constraints that force them to follow it.
R
The problem in Europe is much different then the USA.
In Europe you have mainly Religions with traditions, and church made doctrines, dead dry services full of pomp and ceremonies, and people are generally bored no real preaching The Word of God. No wonder Atheism is the lifestyle choice much more then here In The U.S.
Here we have Bible -Teaching Churches that feed a person.'s soul, and stir a person's heart....
In Europe you have mainly Religions with traditions, and church made doctrines, dead dry services full of pomp and ceremonies, and people are generally bored no real preaching The Word of God. No wonder Atheism is the lifestyle choice much more then here In The U.S.
Here we have Bible -Teaching Churches that feed a person.'s soul, and stir a person's heart....
M
I'm not sure who you are addressing but I'll respond as simply as I can.....you are wrong.
There are the type of churches you speak about....in unnecesarilly derogatory terms.....that's the form of worship that stirs the hearts of some people, not everyone is all about the boistrous praise.
But in my area of England there are many churches of that type.....I know because I've attended more than one.
But that aside the issue of gay amrriage and the christian repsonse too it is the same everywhere.
There are the type of churches you speak about....in unnecesarilly derogatory terms.....that's the form of worship that stirs the hearts of some people, not everyone is all about the boistrous praise.
But in my area of England there are many churches of that type.....I know because I've attended more than one.
But that aside the issue of gay amrriage and the christian repsonse too it is the same everywhere.
Then what say you of the revival of the Russian Orthodox Church? I am Greek Orthodox and attend the Divine Liturgy, something you would probably classify as dead dry and full of pomp and ceremonies. In my opinion, I probably hear more of the Word of God than you do in your church. The Epistle Reading and the Gospel Reading, not just a verse here and a verse here and the rest of the time a preacher beating into you an interpretation of that verse or set of verses. Now, this is not fact. This is only my opinion.
The Greek Orthodox Church not only feeds my soul, but fills it to the brim. The Church stirs my heart as well as the beauty of the Liturgy.
For example,
And...
are today's readings. Compared to some Protestant churches I have visited, this is probably more of the bible, in terms of scripture, they are exposed to in any given week.
R
What I was attempting to say in America , most especially where I live(The Bible Belt) for every main line Christian Religion Church (I.E. Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian etc) there are least 40 Churches of Bible teaching faiths. This is fact not something I dreamed up, it is fact. Now I never stated there were no other Churches but Mainline Religions in England etc.
I know that The RCC and Anglican Church Dominate England. I know because I was on Bible blog site in London, and The British People talked about it everyday, and the falling away over there. The Muslims are now flooding into Great Britain at an alarming rate.
I am not riduculing any certain Mainline Church, what I am saying The Young people especially want to go to a church with a lot of young people their age, and most of your Bible Based Churches appeal to the young which is the Future of any Church. Sorry if I offended anyone, but I came out of One of Those "Dead and Dry" churches I know what I am saying....
I know that The RCC and Anglican Church Dominate England. I know because I was on Bible blog site in London, and The British People talked about it everyday, and the falling away over there. The Muslims are now flooding into Great Britain at an alarming rate.
I am not riduculing any certain Mainline Church, what I am saying The Young people especially want to go to a church with a lot of young people their age, and most of your Bible Based Churches appeal to the young which is the Future of any Church. Sorry if I offended anyone, but I came out of One of Those "Dead and Dry" churches I know what I am saying....
A
into a UPCI legalistic one that teaches misinformation about who god is and excommunicates those who fail their abra cadabra baptismal and speaking in tongue test right?
http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-modalism.htm
http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-modalism.htm