The Lord’s Abilities

Credo_ut_Intelligam · Jun 2, 2010

I would distinguish between God's decretive will and his prescriptive will. So I don't think that "if we couldn't [override God's will in our lives] we would be perfect." Scripture does teach that God does whatever He wants (thus, God's will is in a sense never thwarted): “Whatever the LORD pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps” (Psalm 135:6). An example of this is the crucifixion of Christ. Scripture says it was God's will to put Jesus to death, don't you agree? But that involves a sinful act, the murder of Jesus, which goes against his prescriptions.

Dmurray · Jun 2, 2010

Well, I don't believe in the Trinity... so...

I forget where it says it, but my Pastor quoted scripture that said God doesn't control our carnal mind. I'll get it for u tomorrow.

Credo_ut_Intelligam · Jun 2, 2010

Dmurray said:

Nothing I said requires belief in the Trinity. Although I do think the Trinity is true.

Here are some more verses that indicate God's will is never thwarted:

Proverbs 16:4 The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.

Isaiah 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

Daniel 4:34–35 At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever, for his dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom endures from generation to generation; all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”

Since the Proverbs verse clearly says that God has made the wicked (and their carnal mind) for his own purposes, I guess this "debate" would turn on how you understand "control".

We would agree, wouldn't we, that God knew prior to creating the wicked persons that they would be wicked and have carnal minds. So there would seem to be some sense in which God wanted to (or willed to) bring about those persons for his own purposes. If they accomplish his purposes, then there is some sense in which they are under his control.

Dmurray · Jun 2, 2010

How do we have free will then?

Credo_ut_Intelligam · Jun 2, 2010

Dmurray said:

Well that's a more complicated issue and I don't really want to drag this thread off topic.

Suffice it to say, the Bible doesn't talk about free will. At least not directly. It talks about choosing and moral responsibility and people *infer* free will from that. That may or may not be a valid inference depending on how you go on to flush out the notion of "free will." It's a philosophical concept.

(Yes, I know the Bible talks about "free-will offerings" but that just means the offering wasn't morally obligatory, it has nothing to do with our philosophical notion of free will.)

Dmurray · Jun 2, 2010

Ok, but we don't all have God's Spirit correct? and God sent lucifer to the earth so he could reign it at this time did he not?(from my understanding)

So if we are walking after the lusts of the flesh, and doing crack and meth and stuff. You are saying that is God's chosing? If so. Then what is the purpose of the Devil. If God controls everything?

Credo_ut_Intelligam · Jun 2, 2010

Dmurray said:

I just sent a message to you, to try and avoid derailing the thread.

charisenexcelcis · Jun 2, 2010

The idea of can and can't seem to merge into the idea of will and won't when dealing with an omnipotent God. God can do anything that He wishes to do. The paradoxical things that we try to challange Him with are not according to His will. He will not be blackmailed by our challenges nor does He have anything to prove.

Consumed · Jun 2, 2010

charisenexcelcis said:

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Peter and Paul both prayed we have the knowledge of Christ, to have the mind of Christ. We need to stop watering down His Word and believe in the fulness of the cross working yesterday today and forever....

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
Isa 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
Isa 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

Same mandate- not i who lives but Christ who lives in me
Jesus asked and still asks - do you believe i can???

pray with all THANKSGIVING,saying please once and then thank you that point onward-

resurrection33 · Jun 3, 2010

Dmurray said:

The “free will” issue comes up when the question is asked, “Why does the Lord allow evil?” To do away with evil, the Lord would have to do away with free will, I think. Nobody would want that to happen, would they?

resurrection33 · Jun 3, 2010

Credo_ut_Intelligam said:

When I began this thread, it wasn’t my intent to begin a passionate discussion about what the Lord can and can’t do. I believe the Lord can do anything that needs to be done to make us happy.

resurrection33 · Jun 3, 2010

charisenexcelcis said:

That is helpful—the Lord can do anything he WISHES to do.

HolyTriX · Jun 3, 2010

God WON'T Lie.

God Can DO ANYTHING, but God created everything INCLUDING DISIPLINE + SELF-CONTROL + PROMISES etc

& EVERYTHING God made he has complete control over.

& THat is the biggest understatement in the world. God Masters Over Everything as Sin Masters Over the World.

Credo_ut_Intelligam · Jun 3, 2010

resurrection33 said:

Actually lots of persons aren't convinced that free will is worth the price of the horrible sins that take place. To lots of people, human "freedom" looks more like freedumb and they'd say it's better to be a slave in heaven than a king in hell.

And it's also not obvious that evil is a necessary component to free will. God supposedly has free will, yet existed for all eternity without evil.

Well I'm not sure what you mean by "passionate" discussion, but you obviously wanted some sort of discussion on the topic, right?

I wouldn't cast the debate in terms of God making us happy. Life isn't all about you or me and it definitely isn't about you being happy and me being happy, at least not without some serious qualification.

But I like the way the Westminster Shorter Catechism puts it: "Man’ s chief end is to glorify God, (1 Cor. 10:31, Rom. 11:36) and to enjoy him for ever (Ps. 73:25–28)." The difference is that this puts the focus on God. Yes, the chief end of man is to have joy, but joy in the Lord and his glorification.

I don't necessarily have a problem with this if it's framed in the way that John Miley framed it in the quote I provided in my first post.

He defines the will as rational personal agency. I would clarify that the will of a thing is determined by the nature of the thing. If one understands that the "will" of God isn't arbitrary or independent of his holy and orderly nature, then we have no problems. Within this we can say that God cannot lie, because that is against his righteous nature and God cannot create a square circle, because that is against his rational nature. So even though it's approached differently, you just end up where I started and with what the other theologians said: God can't do logically contradictory things or those things which are against his nature.

resurrection33 · Jun 3, 2010

Credo_ut_Intelligam said:

Actually lots of persons aren't convinced that free will is worth the price of the horrible sins that take place. To lots of people, human "freedom" looks more like freedumb and they'd say it's better to be a slave in heaven than a king in hell.

And it's also not obvious that evil is a necessary component to free will. God supposedly has free will, yet existed for all eternity without evil.

Well I'm not sure what you mean by "passionate" discussion, but you obviously wanted some sort of discussion on the topic, right?

I wouldn't cast the debate in terms of God making us happy. Life isn't all about you or me and it definitely isn't about you being happy and me being happy, at least not without some serious qualification.

But I like the way the Westminster Shorter Catechism puts it: "Man’ s chief end is to glorify God, (1 Cor. 10:31, Rom. 11:36) and to enjoy him for ever (Ps. 73:25–28)." The difference is that this puts the focus on God. Yes, the chief end of man is to have joy, but joy in the Lord and his glorification.

I don't necessarily have a problem with this if it's framed in the way that John Miley framed it in the quote I provided in my first post.

He defines the will as rational personal agency. I would clarify that the will of a thing is determined by the nature of the thing. If one understands that the "will" of God isn't arbitrary or independent of his holy and orderly nature, then we have no problems. Within this we can say that God cannot lie, because that is against his righteous nature and God cannot create a square circle, because that is against his rational nature. So even though it's approached differently, you just end up where I started and with what the other theologians said: God can't do logically contradictory things or those things which are against his nature.

You want to give up your free will?

resurrection33 · Jun 3, 2010

Credo_ut_Intelligam said:

We have all sinned.

resurrection33 · Jun 3, 2010

Credo_ut_Intelligam said:

I will say it again: I believe the Lord can do anything that needs to be done to make us happy.

Credo_ut_Intelligam · Jun 3, 2010

resurrection33 said:

Let me answer your question this way. Mark 14:21 says that "It would have been better for [Judas] if he had not been born.” There exists for some people such a circumstance that it were better for them never to have been born. Thus (moving from the stronger truth), why wouldn't it be better for some to not have free will at all? If their free will, as you suppose they have it, leads to a situation in which it would be better for them to have never existed, then it certainly would have been better for them to have never had it in the first place and to make such a hell with it.

God hasn't. Do you think he has free will? If he does, then your claim that sin comes about necessarily from free will is obviously false. If he doesn't, then I don't see why we should have it either.

But simply repeating yourself doesn't make your argument any stronger. Your point about the Lord being capable of doing anything that needs to be done to make us happy didn't work out too well for Judas, did it? Nor does it work out too well for millions of people throughout history. That's why putting "my happiness" as the goal or highest good of life is shallow. God's glory is the goal and highest good and our purpose is to enjoy the accomplishment of that.

resurrection33 · Jun 3, 2010

Credo_ut_Intelligam said:

But the rest of us have (sinned).

Are you saying the Lord is incapable of making us happy?

kostik · Jun 3, 2010

God can't control people. Because people are like God, know good and bad. If he would control them they would be robots not people.

The Lord’s Abilities

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