The Natural Man

[fredoheaven]

The Natural man

1 Corinthians 2:14
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


The natural man is without spiritual enlightenment, acting in his own old self. Paul said, he cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God. Concerning those spiritual things that the Spirit of God is teaching are but foolishness unto him (natural man), neither, he can understand them. Whereas, we can understand fully what these spiritual things by which the Holy Ghost teaches by comparing spiritual things with spiritual, they are discerned spiritually without the use of man’s wisdom (worldly wisdom) which fell short and cannot know them.

Is the natural man in 1 Corinthians saved or unsaved?

While the word “natural” in the other passages is in the state of nature possibly the sinful nature is true to the unsaved yet they can be also true to the believers as well. The context as per Paul is talking about is to the brethren (2:1), hence the believers in many instances are still subject to the old self. Paul address the inner conflict of the two nature being in conflict with each other. (Gal. 5:16-17; Romans 7:17-20 etc.). So, the natural man being referred to here are those carnal Corinth Christians who were fond of using worldly wisdom which Paul had in the first place noted that his gospel preaching is the demonstration of the Spirit and power of God not with the wisdom on men. (1 Corinthian 2:1-5) and to which Paul noted the Corinth believers that in order to properly understand God’s word concerning the deep things of God (v. 10) is not to appeal on their own wisdom but rather God’s wisdom.

Yet on 1 Cor. 3:1-3 stated perhaps the main reason that these Corinth believers were either acting carnally or still a babe in Christ and we know by the number of reason they were called carnal.

God bless

 

[fredoheaven]

What part of; "NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM" BECAUSE THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED. do you not understand?

Who are these "THEY"? People or the things of the Spirit of God?

 

[throughfaith]

What part of; "NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM" BECAUSE THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED. do you not understand?

Keep reading principal.
15BUT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! he that is spiritual ( MATURE ) judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

 

[DiscipleA]

This attitude shown by you and by,
throughfaith said:
its probably because we're all natural men lol 😆

is nothing more than disgusting. To treat the Word of God with such foolish and disrespectful comments, is nearly unbelievable.

To say things like, "its probably because we're all natural men lol 😆" and still consider yourselves as followers of Christ, is truly laughable. No genuine believer, would ever be so disrespectful in the handling of God's Word are towards His people. You are scoffers to those who are trying to learn and are placing stumbling blocks in the path of those who try to walk worthily.

If you disagree as to doctrine, then be thoughtful and respectful to others with another position. Make no comments that try to lay a trap for others, unless you know not Christ. The subject matter that we are engaging in, is the most important subject ever put before man. It should be treated in that light.

Unless:

Rom_3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

So quick to take offense and throw all kinds of insults and accusations at me!

Ecclesiastes 7:9 Do not be quickly provoked in your spirit, for anger resides in the lap of fools.

And you really know how to sell it the way to overreact with your slanderous comment! Hypocrite, you call me a scoffer while you arrogantly laugh at my comment as if yours is so much more holier than mine!

If you disagree as to doctrine, then be thoughtful and respectful to others with another position.

Hypocrite, in what way was your comment at all thoughtful and respectful to me when you called me "disgusting" and "foolish" and "laughable?" You treat my position with total disrespect!

Make no comments that try to lay a trap for others, unless you know not Christ.

Hypocrite, your entire comment was nothing but an attack on me with your slander making me out to look like someone who has total disrespect for God's Word and a lot of other things you came up with in your own imagination!

You're totally ignorant to what you yourself preach, that people have different opinions here. This a discussion to try to come to some kind of agreement. Not a discussion of why your opinions are holier than everyone else's. Instead of telling me I'm wrong where I might be wrong, you call me a liar and accuse me of intentionally trying to stumble others. So many Bible teaching ignored in your comment! So much lies, and hypocrisy, and slander in your comment!!!!! And with such subtle craftiness! It had Satan written all over it. If you can't see that in your comment, if you can't understand that about your comment, if you're gonna be ignorant to that about your comment, then you're totally missing the very basics of everything! I would hope you can see this about yourself and learn what's most important, but if that's the way you truly feel, that's on you.

 

[throughfaith]

That would be the natural man, he is not in Christ, and therefore not born spiritually, and cannot understand spiritual things, not even the spiritual milk of the word.

Yes of course you need it to mean that. But that is not what it says . The spiritual man is the mature. Not " oh that man over there hes spiritual ( says every new ager or agnostic. " i don't believe in God ,but i am spiritual " ,
oh your a Christian ? "
No I'm just spiritual . Yes I consider myself a spiritual person . I don't believe in all that bible nonsense im more of a spiritual person "
" oh , its just that I'm a calvinist s and every time I hear the word ' spiritual ' i can only understand that word to mean ' a person who has the Holy Spirit ' .

 

[throughfaith]

I do not find in the Greek translation any mention to "mature".

Gal 6
1¶Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
So that word spiritual ( one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God) Unless your reading that as :
1¶Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which have the Holy Spirit , restore such an one in the spirit of meekness. ?
Which would be odd to say that . Or is it . Ye which are mature ,restore such a person ( less mature )

 

[awelight]

So quick to take offense and throw all kinds of insults and accusations at me!

And you really know how to sell it the way to overreact with your slanderous comment! Hypocrite, you call me a scoffer while you arrogantly laugh at my comment as if yours is so much more holier than mine!

Hypocrite, in what way was your comment at all thoughtful and respectful to me when you called me "disgusting" and "foolish" and "laughable?" You treat my position with total disrespect!

Hypocrite, your entire comment was nothing but an attack on me with your slander making me out to look like someone who has total disrespect for God's Word and a lot of other things you came up with in your own imagination!

You're totally ignorant to what you yourself preach, that people have different opinions here. This a discussion to try to come to some kind of agreement. Not a discussion of why your opinions are holier than everyone else's. Instead of telling me I'm wrong where I might be wrong, you call me a liar and accuse me of intentionally trying to stumble others. So many Bible teaching ignored in your comment! So much lies, and hypocrisy, and slander in your comment!!!!! And with such subtle craftiness! It had Satan written all over it. If you can't see that in your comment, if you can't understand that about your comment, if you're gonna be ignorant to that about your comment, then you're totally missing the very basics of everything! I would hope you can see this about yourself and learn what's most important, but if that's the way you truly feel, that's on you.

I sir, was not referring to you in a personal attack for the sake of attacking you. If you look to what I said, "is nothing more than disgusting. To treat the Word of God with such foolish and disrespectful comments, is nearly unbelievable." Was pointing out the way the two of you were laughing at the replies of others. Like children sitting in the corner, going ...he,he,he.... The primary target of my comments was ThroughFaith, you just happened to agree with him at that moment rather than rebuking him. Depending on ones doctrine, this was not at all funny, when he said: its probably because we're all natural men lol 😆

Your comments towards me though were definitely over the top.

And oh how nice it would be if this statement was true: "This a discussion to try to come to some kind of agreement." I have looked down through this entire thread and it has nothing to do with coming to an agreement. It has been used for the sole purpose of proving others wrong and that's okay if you are also listening. The "Natural Man thread was started by ThroughFaith because he did not like what I was saying on another thread.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Who are these "THEY"? People or the things of the Spirit of God?

The natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit. The "they" are the things of the Spirit.

 

[DiscipleA]

And oh how nice it would be if this statement was true: "This a discussion to try to come to some kind of agreement."

I agree

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Yes of course you need it to mean that. But that is not what it says . The spiritual man is the mature. Not " oh that man over there hes spiritual ( says every new ager or agnostic. " i don't believe in God ,but i am spiritual " ,
oh your a Christian ? "
No I'm just spiritual . Yes I consider myself a spiritual person . I don't believe in all that bible nonsense im more of a spiritual person "
" oh , its just that I'm a calvinist s and every time I hear the word ' spiritual ' i can only understand that word to mean ' a person who has the Holy Spirit ' .

Your babblings degrade your character, and make no sense of the post you are replying to.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Keep reading principal.
15BUT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! he that is spiritual ( MATURE ) judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

This has nothing to do with the natural man that cannot discern the things of the Spirit.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Who are these "THEY"? People or the things of the Spirit of God?

The things of the Spirit.

 

[throughfaith]

I sir, was not referring to you in a personal attack for the sake of attacking you. If you look to what I said, "is nothing more than disgusting. To treat the Word of God with such foolish and disrespectful comments, is nearly unbelievable." Was pointing out the way the two of you were laughing at the replies of others. Like children sitting in the corner, going ...he,he,he.... The primary target of my comments was ThroughFaith, you just happened to agree with him at that moment rather than rebuking him. Depending on ones doctrine, this was not at all funny, when he said: its probably because we're all natural men lol 😆

Your comments towards me though were definitely over the top.

And oh how nice it would be if this statement was true: "This a discussion to try to come to some kind of agreement." I have looked down through this entire thread and it has nothing to do with coming to an agreement. It has been used for the sole purpose of proving others wrong and that's okay if you are also listening. The "Natural Man thread was started by ThroughFaith because he did not like what I was saying on another thread.

I created this thread to discuss ' the natural man ' because in more than one conversation on different threads this kept coming up . So to be fair to those threads it seemed good to create this one .

 

[throughfaith]

The natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit. The "they" are the things of the Spirit.

Which things? The things Paul mentions in verse 6 . Not every single thing ever , forever, ever

 

[throughfaith]

Your babblings degrade your character, and make no sense of the post you are replying to.

I'm sticking to attacking the ridiculous philosophy called ' Calvinism ' . I.ll leave it to you to attack peoples character .

 

[throughfaith]

This has nothing to do with the natural man that cannot discern the things of the Spirit.

What things ? Anything? Somethings ?

 

[soggykitten]

What the bible says .
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. KJV

what scripture is presumed to teach.

" But the unsaved man cannot
receive Jesus nor the Gospel of God:for it is foolishness unto him : neither can he know it ,because it is spiritually discerned. NSV ( Non scriptural version. )

Here we see this verse used to teach the Calvinstic idea of ' regeneration precedes faith ' And the T in TULIP . But let's look at what the verses actually say .

We know that Paul is responding to a letter from the household of Chloe .
1 cor 1.11
11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
we see these issue are to do with the Church behaviour amongst those behaving ' carnally ' ( fleshy behaviour) Paul flat out calls theses believers ' Carnal ' . 1 cor 3.3 .
Now we get a description of God's wisdom v man's wisdom leading up to chapter 2 .
In chapter 2 Paul is talking about wisdom still ,the deeper wisdom that He speaks amongst those who are the mature ( spiritual ) Chapter 2 verse 6
6¶Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect( Mature ) : yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
So just like in Hebrews 5 where Paul wants to impart the deeper things ( the meat ) the new babes are unable to leave the milk .

12¶For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Paul is explaining the same idea in Chapter 2 of 1cor . That the immature ' natural / carnal / fleshy new babe is unable to hear and unable to discern yet because they are behaving ' fleshy ' .

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13¶Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Now as believers we have recieved the Spirit of God to be ' able ' to recieve these things . But not if we do not follow the principal in Hebrews 5 and Romans 12 .2 " be transformed with a renewal of our minds . " .
14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Back to the verse at hand :
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned ( Maturely discerned )
15But he that is spiritual ( mature judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
Notice it does not say " and he who is saved " . It says he who is spiritual ( mature ) judgeth all things .
which makes sense as these fleshy belivers are clearly not judging all things .
There are no chapter divisions in the Greek manuscripts ,this is later added . So paul is still making the point in chapter 3 .
1¶And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
Notice these immature believers are UNABLE to recieve these things of God because of their behavior.
Paul never breaks from this with a non sequitor about a lost man unable to believe the Gospel this is forced into the text because some system needed a proof text to support the T in Tulip so this was close enough for some . Even non Calvinists who may have never picked up a book from any reformed theologian unfortunately still absorbs calvinstic thinking because of the years it has permeated into so many denominations and traditions ,that now the term ' the natural man ' is used by so many as if it refers to a lost man .

Just to throw this in, natural man, is a phrase exclusive to the Pauline doctrine or teachings. Just to provide context here and insure we don't confuse this term with Christ's personal Gospel teachings.

 

[awelight]

I created this thread to discuss ' the natural man ' because in more than one conversation on different threads this kept coming up . So to be fair to those threads it seemed good to create this one .

Fair enough

 

[14meatcc]

Regeneration can't precede faith. Everything has an appointed time, and nothing can be of salvation before the imputing of the Holy Spirit. Nothing precedes that except the appointed time in God's will.
Am I making any sense?

 

[awelight]

It is highly important that ThroughFaith, can steer the understanding of 1 Cor. 2:14 away from this:

"what scripture is presumed to teach. " But the unsaved man cannot receive Jesus nor the Gospel of God:for it is foolishness unto him : neither can he know it ,because it is spiritually discerned. NSV ( Non scriptural version. )
Here we see this verse used to teach the Calvinstic idea of ' regeneration precedes faith ' And the T in TULIP . But let's look at what the verses actually say . "

Because if they teach what they clearly seem to say, then those in opposition to salvation being all of God, are once again in trouble. This is why we are having this circular discussion about this one area of Scripture, A discussion that on one side needs to prove, "natural man" means something other than what it does.

Whether you want to call it Calvinism or Free Grace, etc... there are too many Scriptures to ignore, or try to explain away. Why not just let Scripture speak and then do your best to harmonize these two great points of Salvation.

On one side:
1) Does Scripture teach being Chosen? YES
2) Does Scripture teach Election? YES
3) Does Scripture teach that there is God given Faith? YES
4) Does Scripture teach Predestination? YES
5) Does God know the exact number of Believers in the end? YES

On the other side:
1) Does Scripture teach that God demands everyone to Repent? YES
2) Does Scripture teach that the Gospel is offered to everyone without exception? YES

Finally, Does Scripture teach that God takes no pleasure in pouring out His Wrath? YES

NOW, Harmonize these facts, without doing damage to either.