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This is really more for zone than for me I guess, but she's not at CC anymore, so I'll make an input. I read Bonhoeffer's book "The cost of Discipleship" about 15 yrs ago, and liked it then. But there are some doctrinal/theological questionmarks about him, especially seen in his prison letters, which has some scary stuff in them (see link below). As far as I know though, Bonhoeffer never suggested that the lutheran doctrine of forensic justification should be abandoned, nor did he suggest an alternative to the lutheran view on the sacraments etc (if someone has other infos, with sources, I'll stand corrected).
Whatever Bonhoeffer's belief outlook was his critique in "Discipleship" still basically makes sense, although his wording "cheap grace" is way off base. What he reacted against was the stress of having people "churched", with little or no visible fruit. This in a time and circumstance that must have been extremely straining. Since the 1800s there has been trouble in many major lutheran churches with liberalism, bible criticism, humanism, modernism, ecumenism et al, resulting in what we not seldom see among them today. To be fair we must also mention that the commited confessional and traditional parts of lutheranism has passed over and through this.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer - General Teachings/Activities <-link on Bonhoeffer Again, the dividing line between reformation protestantism (lutherans/reformed) and the remonstrants/arminians/wesleyans/anabaptists etc is the view of sin and righteousness and ultimately justification. It is in this light that we must perceive any and all differences between them in concepts such as of grace and sanctification etc.
Whatever Bonhoeffer's belief outlook was his critique in "Discipleship" still basically makes sense, although his wording "cheap grace" is way off base. What he reacted against was the stress of having people "churched", with little or no visible fruit. This in a time and circumstance that must have been extremely straining. Since the 1800s there has been trouble in many major lutheran churches with liberalism, bible criticism, humanism, modernism, ecumenism et al, resulting in what we not seldom see among them today. To be fair we must also mention that the commited confessional and traditional parts of lutheranism has passed over and through this.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer - General Teachings/Activities <-link on Bonhoeffer Again, the dividing line between reformation protestantism (lutherans/reformed) and the remonstrants/arminians/wesleyans/anabaptists etc is the view of sin and righteousness and ultimately justification. It is in this light that we must perceive any and all differences between them in concepts such as of grace and sanctification etc.
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Rom 10:1-3
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Forest, you can't rationalize or twist this passage of scripture, even if you compare it with other passages. This salvation here is the same in the folllowing passages: Rom 1:16, 10:10, 11:11, 2Cor 7:10, Eph 1:13, 1Thes 5:9, 2Thes 2:13,14, 2Tim 2:10, Heb 1:14, 2:3, 5:9, 6:9, 1Pt 1:5,9,10, Jude 3.
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Forest, you can't rationalize or twist this passage of scripture, even if you compare it with other passages. This salvation here is the same in the folllowing passages: Rom 1:16, 10:10, 11:11, 2Cor 7:10, Eph 1:13, 1Thes 5:9, 2Thes 2:13,14, 2Tim 2:10, Heb 1:14, 2:3, 5:9, 6:9, 1Pt 1:5,9,10, Jude 3.
F
In both of these accounts, Paul along with those in Rom 10 were already born again. All men are but one of two things. They are natural beings void of the Spirit, or they are born again of the Spirit. In both of these accounts the descriptions are contrary to the description of the natural man, 1 Cor 2:14, and 2 Eph 2-3, which would make them already born again of the Spirit.
F
Red33, Salvation is a deliverance. Eternal salvation is a deliverance from this present evil world. Most of the salvation scriptures are refering to deliverances we receive here in this world. If you are of the understanding that all scriptures that talk about a salvation is talking about eternal salvation, you will never be able to harmonise all of the scriptures of the bible. The inspired scriptures were written to God's elect that they might understand how they should walk in this world.1 Thes 5:9, It is important to understand who the writers are addressing, and in this chapter Paul is talking to (in verse 4- 5) the children of light, so the salvation in verse 9 is not talking about eternal but timely. The natural man described in 1 Cor 2:14 does not fit the description of the people in any of these scriptures that you have quoted to me. Rightly divide the salvation scriptures.
Forest, salvation includes every aspect that is imputed and imparted to the believer through grace from the time that he is saved and cleansed from all sin through and until he inherits the kingdom of God, puts on his new glorified body and reigns with Christ throughout eternity. Their is only one salvation with many aspects attributed to the believer in this life and the next one to come, but all of it is encompassed within God's eternal salvation that came through Jesus Christ and Him crucified as the Lamb of God.
F
Do these two scriptures contradict each other--- 1. Eph 2:8-9, For by grace are ye saved through (Christ's) faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. 2. Acts 2:40, save yourselves from this untoward generation. ????
In one it tells us that we can't save ourselves and in the other it tells us to save ourselves. The only way that these scriptures can harmonise with each other is that they are talking about two intirely different salvations. Eph is an eternal salvation and Acts is a timely salvation.
In one it tells us that we can't save ourselves and in the other it tells us to save ourselves. The only way that these scriptures can harmonise with each other is that they are talking about two intirely different salvations. Eph is an eternal salvation and Acts is a timely salvation.