THE NATURAL MAN

[Crossfire]

Personally, while I have no problem with the predestination of the elect, I do not believe that Christ's atonement was limited in any way. Just as sin was introduced into the entire world through one man (Adam), sin was also overcome by one man (Christ). To say that Christ died for a select few is to to place limitations / minimize the importance of what Christ did for humanity.

However, by no means what so ever am I a Universalist. Just because Christ died so that all mankind could be saved does not mean that all mankind will be saved. Taking this perspective into consideration, it's also a given that I do not believe in 'Irresistable Grace' as defined by Calvinism either. I do believe that grace is indeed irresistable however, I believe it is irresistable to them inwhich grace has been bestowed thus conforming those who have received such grace into the very nature of of that grace.

 

[lil_christian]

Personally, while I have no problem with the predestination of the elect, I do not believe that Christ's atonement was limited in any way. Just as sin was introduced into the entire world through one man (Adam), sin was also overcome by one man (Christ). To say that Christ died for a select few is to to place limitations / minimize the importance of what Christ did for humanity.

However, by no means what so ever am I a Universalist. Just because Christ died so that all mankind could be saved does not mean that all mankind will be saved. Taking this perspective into consideration, it's also a given that I do not believe in 'Irresistable Grace' as defined by Calvinism either. I do believe that grace is indeed irresistable however, I believe it is irresistable to them inwhich grace has been bestowed thus conforming those who have received such grace into the very nature of of that grace.

For the mostpart I agree with that...but if God Himself has already condemned someone or saved someone before they were born, then does that mean little children are in hell?

See, I don't think that hell is a place that God SENDS people. It's a place for people who willingly reject God.

 

[Forest]

Christ offered himself for the sins of every man. Every single one.

Christ did not offer to pay for the sins of God's elect, He did pay for all of the sins of his elect and none of them will be lost, no, not one, John 6:37-41.

 

[Forest]

Its true that we can do nothing to effect our eternal salvation and that only GOD decides one way or another. however this new phrase you term as "timely salvation" what does it actually mean?

What would you consider "timely salvation"?

Like when Jesus had pity upon the people and gave them bread and fish. How He delivered many from demons and sickness

but I wonder why was there only 120 who endured?

however your statement does not ring completely true. especially this statement "There are no instructions as to how man can be saved eternally. "

for example do these verses speak of "timely salvation" or "eternal salvation"?

Romans 10:8-10
New King James Version (NKJV)
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”[a](that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

"Christ accomplished that on the cross without the loss of one, John 6:37-41 "that refers to His disciples who walked with Him, whom ever God chooses to save can not be lost but why God creates or chooses anyone is not told. Eternal salvation is accomplished when people are born again of Spirit. When this happens we do not agree with one another.

you know you are only a few steps away from the Universalist position.

I gave you an example of both eternal and timely salvations, but there are many more timely (deliverances we receive while we sojourn here in this world.) Shroom has a very dificult time with Romans 10 saying it tells us how to be saved eternally, but the salvation taught in this chapter is a tlmely salvation. In verse 2-3 Paul is talking to people who are already children of God, having a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. He says they are ignorant of God's righteousness (which is salvtion by grace and that not of works). They are according to verse 3 believing that their righteousness (good works) will eternally save them. Paul is telling them if they would repent of their dependance on their own good works and confess that their eternal salvation is by the righteousness of God (his grace) they will be saved (timely) being delivered from their dependance upon their works of righteousness to save them eternally. This salvation, they receive as soon as they understand the righteousness of God. Most salvation scriptures are refering to timely deliverances.

 

[Forest]

Its true that we can do nothing to effect our eternal salvation and that only GOD decides one way or another. however this new phrase you term as "timely salvation" what does it actually mean?

What would you consider "timely salvation"?

Like when Jesus had pity upon the people and gave them bread and fish. How He delivered many from demons and sickness

but I wonder why was there only 120 who endured?

however your statement does not ring completely true. especially this statement "There are no instructions as to how man can be saved eternally. "

for example do these verses speak of "timely salvation" or "eternal salvation"?

Romans 10:8-10
New King James Version (NKJV)
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”[a](that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

"Christ accomplished that on the cross without the loss of one, John 6:37-41 "that refers to His disciples who walked with Him, whom ever God chooses to save can not be lost but why God creates or chooses anyone is not told. Eternal salvation is accomplished when people are born again of Spirit. When this happens we do not agree with one another.

you know you are only a few steps away from the Universalist position.

I do not believe that all mankind will be saved eternally, only those that Christ died for, which was only for his elect.

 

[Forest]

Saying that Jesus died only for the elect is false. You seem to like the Gospel of John. But I think you forgot "For God so loved the WORLD!!, He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him should NOT perish, BUT have everlasting life."

You can add or replace "World" with whatever you want. You could add "For God so loved the 'elect'" or "For God so loved the descendants of Abraham" and even "For God so loved Barney the purple dinosaur" but it does NOT change what the Bible has given us.

EVERYONE is a whosoever.

The word "world" in John 3:16 according to the Greek interpretation means "used of believers only". That meaning harmonises with all other scriptures.

 

[shroom2]

The word "world" in John 3:16 according to the Greek interpretation means "used of believers only". That meaning harmonises with all other scriptures.

No, it forces it to "harmonise" with your incorrect understanding of scripture.

 

[shroom2]

I gave you an example of both eternal and timely salvations, but there are many more timely (deliverances we receive while we sojourn here in this world.) Shroom has a very dificult time with Romans 10 saying it tells us how to be saved eternally, but the salvation taught in this chapter is a tlmely salvation. In verse 2-3 Paul is talking to people who are already children of God, having a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. He says they are ignorant of God's righteousness (which is salvtion by grace and that not of works). They are according to verse 3 believing that their righteousness (good works) will eternally save them. Paul is telling them if they would repent of their dependance on their own good works and confess that their eternal salvation is by the righteousness of God (his grace) they will be saved (timely) being delivered from their dependance upon their works of righteousness to save them eternally. This salvation, they receive as soon as they understand the righteousness of God. Most salvation scriptures are refering to timely deliverances.

I don't have a difficult time with it at all, Forest. I read it for what it says. You are the one who has to twist it into something other than what it plainly says.

And FWIW, there are plenty of people out there who have a zeal for God but are not saved.

Merry Christmas, Forest, and God bless you.

 

[lil_christian]

Shroom, I think you and I can both agree he contradicts Scripture and himself...

 

[Forest]

Ezekiel 18:21-23

New American Standard Bible (NASB)



21 “But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. 23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?


Ezekiel 33:10-11

New American Standard Bible (NASB)



10 “Now as for you, son of man, say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus you have spoken, saying, “Surely our transgressions and our sins are upon us, and we are rotting away in them; how then can we survive?”’ 11 Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’

If you are believing that those that are refered to as "the wicked" are not the elect, you are interpreting it wrong. As I have said all scripture has to harmonise without contradictions. Ps 10:4 says "the wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God, God is not in all of his thoughts. These two scriptures will contradict each other unless the wicked in Ezekiel 33 is interpreted as being disobedient children of God. Sometimes God's elect are wicked in his actions when he is not walking in the Spirit. All scripture must harmonise.

 

[Forest]

You have it right with the right conviction of love in your heart and don't ever change. That is the kind of grace and knowledge of our Lord that we grow up into Him. Any man that is contrary to sound doctrine concerning Christ and Him crucified has not grown in the grace received that saves sinners. Forest has rationalized the love and redemption of God right out of the cross and has limited the blood of atonement that was spilt for all men. May we never give place to such a false conception of the sacrifice of Christ and continue to preach the gospel to every creature...

Who would have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth (1Tim 2:4).

There is a salvtion (deliverance) in coming unto a knowledge of the truth, but it is not eternal, but timely. Same thing in Romans 10, and 2 Pet 3:9.

 

[Forest]

Forest, if you can't remember when you were not saved, is that a memory problem or are you referring to being saved before the foundation of the world? In others words was there no appointed time for your salvation because you were assimulted into God's salvation through grace before you even believed?

Do you use these verses to justify what you believe...

Jn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jn 15:16a Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you...

Eph 1:4a According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,

We are all born into this world as natural beings without any righteousness of our own. God's elect, after they are born a natural birth remain a natural man(as discribed in 1 Cor 2:14), until God quickens them from that dead (spiritually dead) unto life by putting his Spirit within us. The new birth, according to John 3:8, comes unnoticed, but conversion is a very noticiable thing, such as Paul's conversion on the road to Damaskas.

 

[Forest]

No, it forces it to "harmonise" with your incorrect understanding of scripture.

You have many scriptures that will not harmonise with your belief, whether you try to force them or not. All scripture must harmonise or you do not understand the truth.

 

[Forest]

Shroom, I think you and I can both agree he contradicts Scripture and himself...

Both you and Shroom have to leave many scriptures unexplained with your belief. 1 Cor 2:14, Ps 10:4, Dan 4:35, and many others. Do you want to try to explain them where they will harmonise with the scriptures you are misinterpreting?

 

[tribesman]

We are all born into this world as natural beings without any righteousness of our own. God's elect, after they are born a natural birth remain a natural man(as discribed in 1 Cor 2:14), until God quickens them from that dead (spiritually dead) unto life by putting his Spirit within us....

So, no eternal justification then?

 

[tribesman]

Personally, while I have no problem with the predestination of the elect,...

As an arminian, your view on predestination would mean God's foreknowledge (foreseeing) of who would "respond positively" to His "universal offer", right? This view of predestination and election would imply a condition as contrasted to the unconditional election in lutheran/calvinist thought.

I do not believe that Christ's atonement was limited in any way. Just as sin was introduced into the entire world through one man (Adam), sin was also overcome by one man (Christ). To say that Christ died for a select few is to to place limitations / minimize the importance of what Christ did for humanity.

I personally believe in single predestination, but I also find scriptural evidence for limited atonement, as I believe that there's a difference as to how God deals with His covenant people vs those who are outside of this covenant. Just as there's a difference between the love shared by a wed couple and the love they have towards others. While what God does for His people would potentially be sufficient for all of mankind it will only efficaciously do what it is aimed for to the elect. I admit I struggle with this one. As this one is not really for our reason/understanding. I believe no man can fully grasp all the depths of all that deals with predestination here and now, since it deals with eternity. That said, I believe one can see a pattern in the scriptures that makes enough sense.

I do not believe in 'Irresistable Grace' as defined by Calvinism either. I do believe that grace is indeed irresistable however, I believe it is irresistable to them inwhich grace has been bestowed thus conforming those who have received such grace into the very nature of of that grace.

This "irresistable grace" you speak of, what would it be conditioned upon?

 

[Crossfire]

As an arminian, your view on predestination would mean God's foreknowledge (foreseeing) of who would "respond positively" to His "universal offer", right? This view of predestination and election would imply a condition as contrasted to the unconditional election in lutheran/calvinist thought.



I personally believe in single predestination, but I also find scriptural evidence for limited atonement, as I believe that there's a difference as to how God deals with His covenant people vs those who are outside of this covenant. Just as there's a difference between the love shared by a wed couple and the love they have towards others. While what God does for His people would potentially be sufficient for all of mankind it will only efficaciously do what it is aimed for to the elect. I admit I struggle with this one. As this one is not really for our reason/understanding. I believe no man can fully grasp all the depths of all that deals with predestination here and now, since it deals with eternity. That said, I believe one can see a pattern in the scriptures that makes enough sense.



This "irresistable grace" you speak of, what would it be conditioned upon?

While I will admit that traditional 'Arminianism' seems to make much more sense to me than traditional 'Calvinism', I don't consider myself to be either. However, I have recently purchased the complete works of John Calvin in order to better understanding what Calvin himself teaches rather than basing my opinions of Calvinism on traditional Calvinism represented by many who might profess to be Calvinists yet contradict one another in some way.

As for modern Lutheranism, I must admit that I'm not a fan. From the number of Lutherans that I have met personally, I feel that Dietrict Boenhoffer's assessment of modern Lutheranism is probably right; that modern Lutheranism appears to lean toward Antinomianism. This may or may not be a fair assessment however, I feel it is better to approach with caution rather than to jump in foolishly.

You see, I believe that the Grace of God is bestowed upon men so that believers might be transformed by that Grace so that we might love and live Gracefully just as Christ did. By no means whatsoever do I consider Grace to be a license to sin.

 

[lil_christian]

If you are believing that those that are refered to as "the wicked" are not the elect, you are interpreting it wrong. As I have said all scripture has to harmonise without contradictions. Ps 10:4 says "the wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God, God is not in all of his thoughts. These two scriptures will contradict each other unless the wicked in Ezekiel 33 is interpreted as being disobedient children of God. Sometimes God's elect are wicked in his actions when he is not walking in the Spirit. All scripture must harmonise.

No they wouldn't...they don't. The wicked may not seek after God, but would God take pleasure in their death? No...

 

[lil_christian]

Both you and Shroom have to leave many scriptures unexplained with your belief. 1 Cor 2:14, Ps 10:4, Dan 4:35, and many others. Do you want to try to explain them where they will harmonise with the scriptures you are misinterpreting?

Where I can't explain it, I let God explain it to me. And He does. There are no Scriptures that make me doubt what I believe.

 

[Forest]

So, no eternal justification then?

We were eternally justified by Christ upon the cross, Gal 2:16.