The offer of Salvation is universal, but the application is only : "by Faith".

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ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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#42
Anything else you want to add to Scripture, or take from it, while you're on a roll? (cf. Rev. 22:18-19).
Maybe that is your mistake, in misunderstanding the scriptures, if you do not reference a concordance.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,301
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#44
I don't need to reference a concordance; I referenced plain Scripture.
Lik I said! That is why you interpret all of the salvation scriptures as "eternal salvation" because without consulting a concordance, you would not know that "salvation" means "a deliverance". A child of God is delivered (saved) only one time eternally, but he receives many deliverances (salvations) as he lives here on earth.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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#46
God doesn’t need to work to believe in Jesus so your logic is flawed there. They asked what they can do to do the work of God in John 6 and Jesus told them to believe in Him. That’s a fact so get over it.
lol

Are you serious? I am asking this with all sincerity. where do you come up with this stuff?

Jesus said

IT IS THE WORK OF GOD (what is the work of God) THAT WE BELIEVE!!!

They asked jesus what work can they do

His response is NOTHING.

it is the work of God. Not your work

you need to show some humility man. You in serious danger here if you do not stop looking at yourself as able to give God anything that will cause him to save you
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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#48
unbelievers are a whole world of unbelievers. Believers are a whole world of believers.
the world in the greek is cosmos

90% of the time it is used, it referes to satans kingdom. or the world system.

the other 10 % would be all of mankind or the whole earth.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,683
13,372
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#49
God disagrees with you. He said believing in Him is a work. Read John 6.
John 6 does not say that faith is "a work", and with respect to you and everyone else who has misread it, it's not primarily about the nature of faith at all. Let's look at it closely:

(After the feeding of the 5,000)
28 Then said they [the people] unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The people asked how they too could do the works of God (in context, getting food miraculously).

Jesus' answer was not "how they too could do the works of God", but what the work of God was.

In other words, Jesus was making clear that feeding people miraculously was not His primary intention. Rather, having people come to believe on Him was the "miracle" He desired.

This passage is NOT about faith being a work (or not a work); it is about the goal of Jesus' ministry.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,683
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#50
Lik I said! That is why you interpret all of the salvation scriptures as "eternal salvation" because without consulting a concordance, you would not know that "salvation" means "a deliverance". A child of God is delivered (saved) only one time eternally, but he receives many deliverances (salvations) as he lives here on earth.
And? What does that add to your argument?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,830
26,003
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#51
unbelievers are a whole world of unbelievers. Believers are a whole world of believers.
That sentence is about both: believers and non-believers.

Ours (as in, not only ours) = believers.

The whole world includes everybody. That means non-believers also.

So elementary.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,683
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#52
That sentence is about both: believers and non-believers.

Ours (as in, not only ours) = believers.

The whole world equals everybody else. That includes non-believers.

So elementary.
C'mon Magenta, you're so mean, pointing out that his position is untenable! ;)
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,830
26,003
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#53
C'mon Magenta, you're so mean, pointing out that his position is untenable! ;)
It's so obvious that both believers and non-believers are referred to in that one sentence, it is kind of mind blowing that anyone could come to any other conclusion about it. I guess that is what happens when the Calvinistic lens is super glued and soldered in place.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,683
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#54
Rom 5:15 -If you have the KJV version, it says; The gift of grace has abounded to "many", not to "all".

The un-regenerant man as described in 1 Cor 2:14, Can not believe in the things of the Spirit, until he has been born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Spiritual faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:22).

The only faith that the un-regenerant man has is faith in mankind and his accomplishments. He does not have spiritual faith until he has been born again.

All of those that God gave to Jesus, are justified by Jesus faithfulness (Gal 2:16) in going to the cross, and dying only for the sins of those that God gave him (John 6:37-40).

Only those who have been born can believe in the things of the Spirit.
Since you didn't answer this in the other thread, I'll ask it again here:

Given that faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit...

In whom does the Holy Spirit produce faith?

If in Jesus, then your position is valid.

If in the believer then my position is valid, and you have been arguing against the truth.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
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#55
John 6 does not say that faith is "a work", and with respect to you and everyone else who has misread it, it's not primarily about the nature of faith at all. Let's look at it closely:

(After the feeding of the 5,000)
28 Then said they [the people] unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The people asked how they too could do the works of God (in context, getting food miraculously).

Jesus' answer was not "how they too could do the works of God", but what the work of God was.

In other words, Jesus was making clear that feeding people miraculously was not His primary intention. Rather, having people come to believe on Him was the "miracle" He desired.

This passage is NOT about faith being a work (or not a work); it is about the goal of Jesus' ministry.
I appreciate your perspective, but I see it differently.

In John 6 Jesus said that He is the bread from Heaven, comparing Himself to the manna given to Israel while they were in the desert. Israel had to gather the manna, refine it, cook it, then eat it or they would have starved. So while the manna was given to them freely, but they had to work.

I agree with you on the point that they were wanting more food from Jesus and they were working to get it, but Jesus told them not to work for food that perishes but rather work to believe in Him. Jesus told them,

John 6:27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but the food that remains to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For God the Father has set his seal on this one."

The reason Jesus was telling them to believe in Him was because they weren’t believing in Him. They needed to believe in Him to access the “bread from heaven” and work for it just like Israel worked for their bread.

John 6:36 But I said to you that you have seen me and do not believe.

So what I believe Jesus meant was that if they wanted to work the works of God, like how Israel worked for their bread, they, too, needed to consume the bread from heaven by working to believe in Jesus.

For the comparison Jesus made between Israel working for their bread and Himself to be accurate, then work is also required to believe in Jesus. That’s why I take John 6:28,29 literally at face value.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
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#56
lol

Are you serious? I am asking this with all sincerity. where do you come up with this stuff?

Jesus said

IT IS THE WORK OF GOD (what is the work of God) THAT WE BELIEVE!!!

They asked jesus what work can they do

His response is NOTHING.

it is the work of God. Not your work

you need to show some humility man. You in serious danger here if you do not stop looking at yourself as able to give God anything that will cause him to save you
Paul said this about faith:

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word about Christ.

That means exposure to Bible verses basically. If people aren’t exposed to the gospel, maybe hear it a time or two, willingly by their own choice, then they can’t believe it.

How about verse 14:

Romans 10:14
How then will they call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how will they believe in him about whom they have not heard? And how will they hear about him without one who preaches to them?

As you can see, hearing about Jesus is required in order to believe. The reality is it can take time and exposure to the gospel for it to really make sense. That’s work.

Do you ever recall a time where someone heard the gospel, they wanted to believe it, but couldn’t genuinely believe because it was too difficult to accept? I have. Then they kept at it, studying, praying, etc. Eventually they become believers. That’s work.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
3,806
1,515
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#57
Paul said this about faith:

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word about Christ.

That means exposure to Bible verses basically. If people aren’t exposed to the gospel, maybe hear it a time or two, willingly by their own choice, then they can’t believe it.

How about verse 14:

Romans 10:14
How then will they call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how will they believe in him about whom they have not heard? And how will they hear about him without one who preaches to them?

As you can see, hearing about Jesus is required in order to believe. The reality is it can take time and exposure to the gospel for it to really make sense. That’s work.

Do you ever recall a time where someone heard the gospel, they wanted to believe it, but couldn’t genuinely believe because it was too difficult to accept? I have. Then they kept at it, studying, praying, etc. Eventually they become believers. That’s work.
I agree, perhaps a bit more nuanced

This "work" is not meritorious it is conditional, in that it is the condition that must be met in order to receive the free gift of salvation.

The analogy that was once explained to me is that this "work" is analogous to signing a contract that offers an inheritance. The inheritance/goods was not earned your "works" but there was an act that was a condition to receive the inheritance such as signing the documents with the lawyer.

I also agree, sometimes coming to a place where we believe may take work, did not the Bereans search the scriptures to see if those things were so, was that not a labor they undertook?

I might also add that some people are persuaded of the truth of Gospel in that moment when they first heard, others may struggle and labor over a long period of time.

It is really important to not make our experience "one size fits all" which becomes more of a "Calvinist" view of saving faith being a gift which it is not.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
4,910
1,501
113
#58
Paul said this about faith:

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word about Christ.

That means exposure to Bible verses basically. If people aren’t exposed to the gospel, maybe hear it a time or two, willingly by their own choice, then they can’t believe it.

How about verse 14:

Romans 10:14
How then will they call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how will they believe in him about whom they have not heard? And how will they hear about him without one who preaches to them?

As you can see, hearing about Jesus is required in order to believe. The reality is it can take time and exposure to the gospel for it to really make sense. That’s work.

Do you ever recall a time where someone heard the gospel, they wanted to believe it, but couldn’t genuinely believe because it was too difficult to accept? I have. Then they kept at it, studying, praying, etc. Eventually they become believers. That’s work.
How do they heart and understand?

Its the WORK OF GOD that we have faith.

Sorry my friend, You should be ashamed of yourself trying to take credit away from God
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
4,910
1,501
113
#59
I agree, perhaps a bit more nuanced

This "work" is not meritorious it is conditional, in that it is the condition that must be met in order to receive the free gift of salvation.

The analogy that was once explained to me is that this "work" is analogous to signing a contract that offers an inheritance. The inheritance/goods was not earned your "works" but there was an act that was a condition to receive the inheritance such as signing the documents with the lawyer.

I also agree, sometimes coming to a place where we believe may take work, did not the Bereans search the scriptures to see if those things were so, was that not a labor they undertook?

I might also add that some people are persuaded of the truth of Gospel in that moment when they first heard, others may struggle and labor over a long period of time.

It is really important to not make our experience "one size fits all" which becomes more of a "Calvinist" view of saving faith being a gift which it is not.
yet faith is a gift.

even for the person that takes years to understand and repent. It is still a gift.

Your not going to come to faith on your own with no help from God..

thats not a calvinist issue. that's reality

it is the trustworthiness of God and his words and his promise who causes us to receive him..

he is the one who proves his trustworthiness to us by his work.
 
J

joecoten

Guest
#60
I was once nagged into going to church. I agreed, on condition that the guy stopped bugging me. Why would anyone want to go to church?
I sat through my first church service. Afterwards, a guy in a pin-striped suit and white shoes read John 3:16 to me. In front of my eyes, I saw a little video of a hand-held sword thrust through a set of curtains and plunge into my belly. I instantly knew it was true.
Before that instant, I'd never heard of the gospel and I was not looking for God. I'm glad this happened, otherwise I might think the way to heaven was through arguing!