The Paranormal

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Aug 25, 2013
2,260
10
0
Kerry, you quoted all of my post (#183), but it doesn't look as though you addressed any of my points.

GoD has shown Himself to you yet you deny it, The Heavens and the stars and the fact that you are here.
Our existence does not demonstrate how we came to exist. This is a very weak argument. Our existence on earth is not proof that God created us. First of all, if you simply make the claim that our existence is proof we were created by a deity, your next job is to successfully rule out the competing claims of all the other faiths that their gods created us. Your claim is not proof that God created us, it is simply an assertion from faith and as I have constantly been reminded the hallmark of faith is that we believe without evidence, because in the Christian view requiring evidence somehow cheapens the experience.

Note: astrophysicists and astronomers have very plausible explanations for where stars and planets come from. We don't need to believe any longer that they were somehow created by gods. Note also that none of the supernatural accounts of creation truly explain anything. They leave us as much in the dark as we were before.

Call me a liar, you know in your heart I tell the truth. If I am a liar then why are you here?
You are no liar Kerry. You actually believe the things you are telling me, but you believe from the standpoint of faith and faith comes with a price. I know in my heart that individuals like Neil de Grasse Tyson are right (so, who’s Neil de Grasse Tyson?). :)
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,716
3,655
113
<Crossnote> still wondering how we went from 'the paranormal' to 'convert an atheist'. Wait...wait..maybe there's a conn...oh, nevermind.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
Indeed. Many astrophysicists and astronomers assert the very plausible explanation that God created the universe with its stars and planets which are necessary for the existence of advanced life on earth and both their per capita percentage and aggregate number has been dramatically increasing over the past two decades and doing so despite the very real threat of career persecution up to and including denial of tenure and loss of promotion by atheists in government and academia.

The simplest, cleanest, and least controversial tool for evaluating different creation/evolution models is a list of predictions specific to each model of what researchers will discover as they gather more data and achieve greater understanding of the natural realm.

If future research contradicts all or nearly all the predictions arising from a particular model, then that model can be fairly discarded as a failure. However, if the model's predictions prove wholly or largely correct, then that model can be aptly determined as worth refining.

I certainly do not find current standard atheist explanations more plausible or even ultimately able to skirt around God; however, and would be happy to show you why that is if you care to share your favorites here in this thread.


Note: astrophysicists and astronomers have very plausible explanations for where stars and planets come from.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,840
13,195
113
Note: astrophysicists and astronomers have very plausible explanations for where stars and planets come from. We don't need to believe any longer that they were somehow created by gods. Note also that none of the supernatural accounts of creation truly explain anything. They leave us as much in the dark as we were before.

yes, and those plausible explanations arise from theory that suggests the entire universe originates from a single point in space and time, appearing as though from nothing, as if created by a single word, and the machinations of which being wholly and completely predetermined from the beginning, if only complete knowledge of every particle and vector energy were known and our power of understanding and computing were limitless.

the very philosophical basis of all science is that the universe is wholly orderly, governed by natural law and predictable given sufficiently complete knowledge.
this is not at odds with theism, but in total agreement.

it is disingenuous to say 'we don't have to believe the stars were created by God' simply because we have gained an understanding of stellar mechanics.
we know how stone can be carved, but that doesn't imply that Michelangelo did not himself put his hand to the hammer and chisel and rasp and leave us with sculptures to behold.

am sure you've heard it 1,000 times by now, but understanding "how" doesn't mean knowing "why" or "who" -- just like we understand that it's entirely possible, though implausible, that erosion of wind and water could carve the pieta, having a knowledge of the artist's tools that formed this great universe doesn't necessitate that there is no Sculptor.
 
Aug 25, 2013
2,260
10
0
In some social settings, terminology for "worldview" has been used where formerly "religion" might have been used. A worldview is like a map or framework or paradigm by which a person understands the world with a set of related values and perspectives. I think that everyone has a worldview.
Not for the first time you have caused me to think more carefully about a response.

I looked up world view on Wikipedia to learn what it thought a world view encompassed. I found the following:

“A comprehensive world view (or worldview) is the fundamental cognitive orientation of an individual or society encompassing the entirety of the individual or society's knowledge and point of view.”

Sound reasonable? I think so. We started on this enquiry with your claim that absence of belief in life after death constituted a religion. I argued that religion encompassed far more than a single notion and suggested that calling this absence of belief in an afterlife, a religion, trivialized the meaning of religion. I think also that calling it a world view is pushing things. Perhaps you're a minimalist? If so you might appreciate Bertrand Russell's definition of Christianity:

“... you must believe in God and immortality... [and] I think you must have at the very lowest the belief that Christ was, if not divine, at least the best and wisest of men. If you are not going to believe that much about Christ, I do not think you have any right to call yourself a Christian” (Russell, Why I am Not a Christian, pp 12-13, first published 1957).

That probably doesn’t work for you. :)

In accepting Wikipedia’ definition of world view I would accept that the absence of belief in life after death is a very tiny part of the totality of my world view, but in and of itself it is neither a world view nor a religion.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
As Michael D. Palmer, Dean of the School of Divinity at Regent University stated, "A worldview is a set of beliefs and practices that shape a person's approach to the most important issues in life."

In the simplest terms, a worldview may be defined as how one sees life and the world at large. A worldview functions in much the same way as a pair of glasses through which a person sees the world. The interpretive lens helps people make sense of life and comprehend the world around them. Worldviews also shape people's understanding of their unique place on Earth. Sometimes worldviews bring clarity such as in my case and other times they can distort reality such as in your case.

Derived from the German term Weltanschauung, the word worldview refers to the cluster of beliefs a person holds about the most significant issues of life-such as God, the cosmos, knowledge, values, humanity, and history.

These beliefs (which may in reality be right or wrong or a combination thereof-not unlike the visual clarity or distortion given by glasses) form a big picture, a general outlook, or a grand perspective on life and the world.

In more technical terms, a worldview forms a mental structure that organizes one's basic or ultimate beliefs.

This framework supplies a comprehensive view of what a person considers real, true, rational, good, valuable, and beautiful. In this vein, philosopher Ronald H. Nash defines a worldview as "a conceptual scheme by which we consciously or unconsciously place or fit everything we believe and by which we interpret and judge reality."

Similarly, philosophers Norman L. Geisler and William D. Watkins describe a worldview as "an interpretive framework through which or by which one makes sense out of the data of life and the world."

Worldview perspective involves much more than merely a set of intellectual beliefs. However, thinking of a worldview in terms of a basic conceptual system is critical. Rather than a disconnected or disparate group of unrelated beliefs, a carefully examined and reflective worldview consists of a network of interconnected ideas that form a unified whole.

This system of beliefs then responds to the big questions of life, focusing particularly upon issues central to human concern. These issues especially include thoughts about the human predicament (why man is the way he is and why does he face the challenges he faces, etc..). And, these concerns involve how human beings derive meaning, purpose, and significance.

Atheism IS a worldview with very real consequences for individuals and society. See: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/97622-paranormal-8.html#post1662569

Furthermore, atheism influences all interconnected ideas and beliefs in the worldview of an atheist.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,716
3,655
113
Is there another choice?...

With a Creator: a created particle comes from Creator. ...hence, Creator is infinite.

If no Creator: a non created particle comes from other non created particle(s) ad infinitum...hence, matter is infinite.
 
Aug 25, 2013
2,260
10
0
Cycel said:
The complete absence of a unified world religion means there is no evidence of a deeper over arching truth.
NL said:
The lack of visible unity is evidence that the way that leads to an eternal inheritance in the presence of Almighty God indeed a narrow way through a narrow gate. As I read it, even many professing Christians who profess the Lordship of Jesus Christ will not inherit eternal life.
So in your view THE Eternal Truth is easily missed and in fact has been missed by all cultures save for a small number in our own society? Perhaps the only ones who have truly understood are the lucky few associated with those sharing your own way of thinking? Just a wild guess. Tell me that I am wrong.

NL said:
The truth is difficult to obtain. From my life experience, there is a large volume of deceit, self-seeking, hidden agendas and other distortions and distractions that hide the truth.
Yes, truth is difficult, but I think not impossible to obtain. There is deceit, but perhaps much of it is self deceit, some is self-serving with hidden agendas. I can’t disagree with you. Where we part is that I see science and the study of history as the light of the future. Things can and do go wrong along the way. We are only human after all, but I remain an eternal optimist. We’ve “Got to kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight” (Song: Lovers In A Dangerous Time, Bruce Cockburn, artist).

NL said:
The heart is deceitful and difficult to know (Jeremiah 17:9). Since our hearts and motives can be difficult to understand, how well can we truly claim to know what motivates others?
My approach is generally to give others the benefit of the doubt. People may not always admit to things that put themselves in a bad light, perhaps, but a good many things rest firmly enough on neutral ground that I think most people can be trusted to be honest, especially with the anonymity of on-line forums.

NL said:
If Genesis 1-3 is correct and that view is best, then in the beginning there was one God, one man, one woman, one law and one religion. All of the other religious messages were added later and many were distortions rather than illuminations of the truth.
I see it as a mistake to interpret Genesis as history. It is mostly myth in my view. The truth is far more interesting.

NL said:
A single monotheism came first. Later, there came polytheism and pantheism.
I would say you have it completely backwards.

NL said:
Atheism was not well represented in ancient times but has become more common in modern times when dependence upon technology has increased and apparent dependence upon God has decreased.
When I became an atheist technology had nothing to do with it. My son and I were talking about this earlier this evening. What you actually find is that people lose there belief in God for all sorts of different reasons.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,840
13,195
113
Yes, truth is difficult, but I think not impossible to obtain. There is deceit, but perhaps much of it is self deceit, some is self-serving with hidden agendas. I can’t disagree with you. Where we part is that I see science and the study of history as the light of the future.

i see science in the same way an art historian becomes an expert on a particular artist and the techniques, media, composition & subjects the artist employs. as a detective who studies evidence, clues and modus operandi to form a profile. observational science is tantamount to reverse engineering.
if i believe the universe is a created and designed thing, to acquire knowledge and understanding about who is ultimately the creator naturally i'm moved to study and do science. my null hypothesis is to find order, and i do.

& history - one man's two sons have had the most profound effects on recorded history - Abraham. and one man, descended from this man, but called the son of God, has had the single most profound effect on all recorded history of them all - and he and his disciples after him said that there never would be a single unifying religion in the world, because the state of the world is like someone sick, infested with sin-virus, but that at the point in time that there ever was one, it would be a humanistic one and would last only a short time until that Son of Man / God personally returned and destoyed it.
that's a singular claim in history.
if i believe there is a living God who ultimately appoints all things in history to His purpose, then naturally i am moved to study history to understand this God and His ways. Jesus and his disciples did not predict an unified church or righteous behavior, but increased division, hypocrisy and licentiousness. they predict man's increase in knowledge, with it ability, and also pride and humanistic egotism, and no end of war but eventual apocalypse after false periods of unity and peace.

so i see evidence for God, for the God of Abraham and Isaac, in science and history, and i agree with you that these two modes of information acquisition are primary ones for any living thing - it's what we experience, science, and the testimony of what has been experienced before us (history), because experience is how we interface with life over time.


We’ve “Got to kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight” (Song: Lovers In A Dangerous Time, Bruce Cockburn, artist).
wow thanks!
i knew this line from Bono (God Part II, U2), who heard it from 'a singer on the radio' late one night.
but i never knew it's origin

:)
 
Aug 25, 2013
2,260
10
0
Is there another choice?...

With a Creator: a created particle comes from Creator. ...hence, Creator is infinite.

If no Creator: a non created particle comes from other non created particle(s) ad infinitum...hence, matter is infinite.
Arm chair philosophy cannot solve these issues. Physicists explain that 'nothing' (quite literally empty space with nothing in it) is unstable and creates energy. This is a new finding, but apparently it's been confirmed. Such knowledge, as with all things in quantum physics, is outside our normal experience and so attempting to extrapolate from known experience is flawed from the get-go. Protons are made up of elementary particles called quarks. Ninety percent of the mass of a proton results from energy fields jumping in and out of existence in the empty space between the quarks. Truly amazing. It takes particle physics to make these kinds of discoveries. This kind of knowledge cannot be derived through crude guess work, nor can we determine the origin of the universe except through scientific investigation, and perhaps then only if we are smart enough. Time will tell.

If you are interested in listening to one of the people who helped figure this out then see the following link:

A Universe From Nothing - Lawrence Krauss Lecture - YouTube
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,716
3,655
113
Arm chair philosophy cannot solve these issues. Physicists explain that 'nothing' (quite literally empty space with nothing in it) is unstable and creates energy. This is a new finding, but apparently it's been confirmed. Such knowledge, as with all things in quantum physics, is outside our normal experience and so attempting to extrapolate from known experience is flawed from the get-go. Protons are made up of elementary particles called quarks. Ninety percent of the mass of a proton results from energy fields jumping in and out of existence in the empty space between the quarks. Truly amazing. It takes particle physics to make these kinds of discoveries. This kind of knowledge cannot be derived through crude guess work, nor can we determine the origin of the universe except through scientific investigation, and perhaps then only if we are smart enough. Time will tell.

If you are interested in listening to one of the people who helped figure this out then see the following link:

A Universe From Nothing - Lawrence Krauss Lecture - YouTube
Nothing is no thing, no energy, no time, no space...zilch.
You plainly do not get something out of nothing unless you want to take a larger leap of blind faith than what most non-theists charge Christians as having done.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,716
3,655
113
Cycel, "Stuff you can't see" is still 'stuff'.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
Krauss errored and, as a result, has made false assertions Cycel. I know that's difficult for you to accept, but it's true. So let's correct both him and you.

As Dr. Hugh Ross (Ph.D., M.S., Astrophysics, University of Toronto; Post-doctoral fellow at the California Institute of Technology; B.S., Physics, University of British Columbia) published:

First, even though the total Newtonian gravitational energy of the universe is zero, the universe still contains a huge amount of heat left over from the cosmic creation event and enormous quantities of dark energy, exotic dark matter, ordinary dark matter, and visible galaxies, stars, planets, dust, and gas meaning the universe does not reduce to nothing.

Imagine someone throwing a shot put straight up in the air. There reaches a point in the shot put’s trajectory where the upward kinetic energy exactly equals the downward gravitational energy. At that point, the shot put is moving neither up nor down. Its motion energy is zero. However, it would be wrong to conclude that the shot put is nothing. Even at that zero energy point, it is still a sphere of metal that weighs sixteen pounds.

Virtual particle production is a natural outcome of the uncertainty principle of quantum mechanics. This principle states, in part, that quantum fluctuations in the universe’s space-time fabric will generate particles, provided those particles revert to quantum space-time fluctuations before any human observer can detect their appearance. Typically, the particles so produced must disappear in less than a quintillionth of a second. Since these particles cannot be detected directly, physicists refer to them as virtual particles. Krauss suggests that the entire universe may have popped into existence by the same means.

However, this idea has caveats. To begin with, for a system as massive as the observable universe, the time for it to arise from nothingness (the space-time fabric) and revert back to nothingness (the space-time fabric) must be less than 10[SUP]-102[/SUP] seconds (101 zeroes between the decimal point and 1). This episode is a bit briefer than the 14-billion-year age of the universe!

A second inadequacy in Krauss’ suggestion comes from another principle of quantum mechanics. The probability of a quantum outcome occurring increases in proportion to the passage of time. That is, the larger the time interval, the greater the probability that a quantum outcome, like the production of a virtual particle, will take place. This principle implies that if the time interval is zero, the probability for any quantum event is zero (1).

Secondly, Krauss’ suggestion comes from another principle of quantum mechanics. The probability of a quantum outcome occurring increases in proportion to the passage of time. That is, the larger the time interval, the greater the probability that a quantum outcome, like the production of a virtual particle, will take place. This principle implies that if the time interval is zero, the probability for any quantum event is zero. (1)

The space-time theorems prove that time has a beginning coincident with the beginning of the universe. Thus, the time interval at the beginning of the universe is zero. This eliminates quantum mechanics as a possible candidate for natural generator of the universe.

Krauss never acknowledges the weaknesses of the virtual particle production analogy for cosmic creation. However, he does hypothesize a second way the universe could have arisen from nothing without divine agency. Krauss proposes that—in addition to the observable quantum mechanics constrained to space and time—there is an unobserved hyper quantum mechanics that exists beyond our universe. Here some dimension (or dimensions) of time, entirely distinct from cosmic time, would permit space-time bubbles, independent of the space or time dimensionality posited to exist beyond our universe, to pop into existence spontaneously. However, if the hyper quantum mechanics is anything like the quantum mechanics we observe, then the space-time bubbles must also disappear spontaneously within extremely brief time episodes.

Krauss acknowledges that his appeal to some imagined hyper quantum mechanics to explain the origin of the universe leads to a time episode problem. He suggests that the problem might be solved if the universe experiences a very aggressive inflationary expansion event before the hyper quantum mechanics forced the newly generated space-time bubble (our universe) to disappear.

Inflation is now an integral part of big bang cosmology. It refers to the brief but rapid exponential expansion of the early universe by a factor of at least 10[SUP]78[/SUP] in volume. For our universe, the inflation epoch lasted between 10[SUP]-36[/SUP] and 10[SUP]-33[/SUP] seconds. It occurred near the very beginning of the electroweak era, during which three forces of physics existed: gravity, the strong nuclear force, and the electroweak force.

The electroweak force is actually a blending of electromagnetism and the weak nuclear force. This blending occurs only when the universe is very young and, hence, very hot. However, if the universe is too young, the electroweak force will blend with the strong nuclear force. When our universe was about 10[SUP]-35[/SUP] seconds old, the strong-electroweak force separated into the strong nuclear force and the electroweak force. Accordingly, an inflation episode cannot begin in our universe until the universe is 10[SUP]-35[/SUP] seconds old.

A hundred billionth of a trillionth of a trillionth of a second might not seem like very much time, but it is far too long to make Krauss’s hyper quantum mechanics a viable “creator” of our universe. This albeit extremely brief time interval is 10[SUP]67[/SUP] times longer than the time duration for a universe like ours to appear and then disappear via the quantum pathway that produces virtual particles.

It is important to note here that many viable inflationary big bang creation models (that is, those capable of explaining the possible existence of life) predict that the act of inflation between 10[SUP]-35[/SUP] and 10[SUP]-32[/SUP] seconds will spawn a large number of space-time bubbles. These bubbles, however, differ from the kind generated by Krauss’ proposed hyper quantum mechanics. These bubbles are generated well after our universe’s creation event. Once formed by the inflation event, they subsequently never overlap. This means humans can never detect the existence of any of these possible bubbles.

Nevertheless, though we cannot prove their existence, we can determine that all these bubbles, if they exist, require a transcendent causal Agent. The space-time theorem proved by Arvind Borde, Alan Guth, and Alexander Vilenkin (2) established that in all viable inflationary big bang models—no matter the quantity of space-time bubbles they predict—the universe and all of its bubbles are subject to a beginning in finite time. The implication is that they thus require a causal Agent beyond space and time to explain their existence.

References:

(1) Stephen Hawking and Roger Penrose, “The Singularities of Gravitational Collapse and Cosmology,” Proceedings of the Royal Society of London, Series A 314 (1970): 529–48; Arvind Borde, Alan H. Guth, and Alexander Vilenkin, “Inflationary Spacetimes Are Incomplete in Past Directions,” Physical Review Letters 90 (April 2003): id. 151301; Arvind Borde and Alexander Vilenkin, “Violation of the Weak Energy Condition in Inflating Spacetimes,” Physical Review D 56 (July 15, 1997): 717–23; Arvind Borde and Alexander Vilenkin, “Singularities in Inflationary Cosmology: A Review,” International Journal of Modern Physics D 5, no. 6 (December, 1996): 813–24; Arvind Borde, “Open and Closed Universes, Initial Singularities, and Inflation,” Physical Review D 50 (September 15, 1994): 3692–702; Arvind Borde and Alexander Vilenkin, “Eternal Inflation and the Initial Singularity,” Physical Review Letters 72 (May 23, 1994): 3305–308.

(2) Arvind Borde, Alan H. Guth, and Alexander Vilenkin, “Inflationary Spacetimes Are Incomplete in Past Directions,” Physical Review Letters 90 (April 2003): id. 151301.

Keep reading Dr. Hugh Ross's refutation of Krauss's mistakes and resulting false assertions:

Part 1: Reasons To Believe : A Universe from Nothing? A Critique of Lawrence Krauss' Book, Part 1
Part 2: Reasons To Believe : A Universe from Nothing? A Critique of Lawrence Krauss' Book, Part 2


Physicists explain that 'nothing' (quite literally empty space with nothing in it) is unstable and creates energy. This is a new finding, but apparently it's been confirmed. Such knowledge, as with all things in quantum physics, is outside our normal experience and so attempting to extrapolate from known experience is flawed from the get-go. Protons are made up of elementary particles called quarks. Ninety percent of the mass of a proton results from energy fields jumping in and out of existence in the empty space between the quarks. Truly amazing. It takes particle physics to make these kinds of discoveries. This kind of knowledge cannot be derived through crude guess work, nor can we determine the origin of the universe except through scientific investigation, and perhaps then only if we are smart enough. Time will tell.

If you are interested in listening to one of the people who helped figure this out then see the following link:

A Universe From Nothing - Lawrence Krauss Lecture - YouTube
 
Aug 25, 2013
2,260
10
0
Cycel said:
We’ve “Got to kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight” (Song: Lovers In A Dangerous Time, Bruce Cockburn, artist).

wow thanks!
i knew this line from Bono (God Part II, U2), who heard it from 'a singer on the radio' late one night.
but i never knew it's origin:)
Cockburn is one of my favourite artists. He is one of those rare individuals who is likely as much a poet as he is a song writer and a performer.
 
Aug 25, 2013
2,260
10
0
Cycel said:
Arm chair philosophy cannot solve these issues. Physicists explain that ‘nothing’ (quite literally empty space with nothing in it) is unstable and creates energy. This is a new finding.... Such knowledge, as with all things in quantum physics, is outside our normal experience and so attempting to extrapolate from known experience is flawed from the get-go....
Nothing is no thing, no energy, no time, no space...zilch.
You plainly do not get something out of nothing...
We can't extrapolate from our everyday experience in the world of Newtonian physics because those rules don't apply at the subatomic level were it is a whole different ball game.

You know, according to the physicists this energy from nothing is real. Deny the reality of it and you deny modern physics. You believe in God and you believe God created the universe from nothing. So why are you having a problem with this? Once more, the finding is that "Ninety percent of the mass of a proton results from energy fields jumping in and out of existence in the empty space between the quarks." Wouldn't it be ironic if this was the first scientific evidence of God's involvement in the universe and you are rejecting the findings because they were made with science?

I understand your problem though. You believe only God can create something out of nothing so the scientific finding that this is the normal state of nature at the subatomic level runs counter to what you want to believe about reality. It is just one more example of scientists usurping for nature what previously God alone was thought to control.

crossnote said:
... unless you want to take a larger leap of blind faith than what most non-theists charge Christians as having done.
This is not blind faith. It is science. Physical evidence and experimentation supports the observations.

It's interesting however, that Christians themselves always assert it is more important to have faith than to have evidence supporting belief. It is better to believe without a scrap of evidence than to seek evidence for belief. God did not answer my prayers, they say, because he wanted me to believe in him on faith and not on evidence.

Christians frequently cite Hebrews 11:2. “And what is faith? Faith gives substance (assurance) to our hopes, and makes us certain of realities we do not see” (NEB). Faith is often referred to as blind for a reason.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
1,826
17
38
Hey Cycel...how's it going?

I had kind of hoped that you would have already stopped denying what I believe you are very aware of! :)

I don't know what happened to cause your current state, but I hope that your wounds are healed.

May God be with you
 

nl

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2011
933
22
18
...So in your view THE Eternal Truth is easily missed and in fact has been missed by all cultures save for a small number in our own society? Perhaps the only ones who have truly understood are the lucky few associated with those sharing your own way of thinking? Just a wild guess. Tell me that I am wrong...
In my view (and the view of the Bible and others), Almighty God could have justly condemned all and saved none.

Summarizing from the sermon of Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758) on "The Justice of God in the Damnation of Sinners"....

Every crime or fault deserves a greater or less punishment, in proportion as the crime itself is greater or less. God is a being of infinite greatness, majesty, glory and authority. So, sin against God, being a violation of infinite obligations, must be a crime of infinite heinousness and so deserving infinite punishment.
Bible doctrines do include man's fear and reverence towards God and God's wrath towards sin (delayed but ultimately not to be denied). Knowing and believing the truth are important steps but ultimately man is dependent upon the mercy and grace of God. God will act according to His Word but we cannot force His hand to act but must rather plead for Him to act in mercy.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
It's not real Cycel. You're making a false assertion. I just explained to you how and why Krauss and yourself are wrong.

Yet YOU choose to deny the reality of it and so choose to deny modern physics as modern physics actually is.

Let's try this again:

Part 1: Reasons To Believe : A Universe from Nothing? A Critique of Lawrence Krauss&#39; Book, Part 1
Part 2: Reasons To Believe : A Universe from Nothing? A Critique of Lawrence Krauss&#39; Book, Part 2

^ Wouldn't it be ironic if you actually understood why Krauss is wrong and why you are wrong. Then you wouldn't continue to repeat your false assertions after they are refuted.

But I understand your problem though. You aren't interested in the truth. You're only interested in information (even when it's shown to be in error) that aligns with YOUR atheistic worldview.

That's NOT science Cycel. That's scientific negligence and you are using that scientific negligence to make false assertions about reality because it comports with your personal belief in atheism.


You know, according to the physicists this energy from nothing is real. Deny the reality of it and you deny modern physics. You believe in God and you believe God created the universe from nothing. So why are you having a problem with this? Once more, the finding is that "Ninety percent of the mass of a proton results from energy fields jumping in and out of existence in the empty space between the quarks." Wouldn't it be ironic if this was the first scientific evidence of God's involvement in the universe and you are rejecting the findings because they were made with science?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,840
13,195
113
observational cosmology points to a universe that had a definite beginning, bursting forth from a single point & being stretched out ever since.

that's not inconsistent with the idea of creation. there is no viable 'origin' theory outside of theism that i'm aware of. there's speculation of perpetual existence, but no observational evidence, direct or indirect, substantiates it against a finite-age construct. it's purely philosophical, not hard science.