V
well, technically there are contradictions, but the contradictions are not in the scripture.
they're in wrong interpretations of the Word.
they're in wrong interpretations of the Word.
The Paul You Never Knew
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We can all, in pride, be the object of the computer tech's evaluation of a particularly difficult problem: "The issue appears to be between the chair and the keyboard."
Hi posthuman. You're feedback is appreciated too, and I respect your opinion concerning the law of God. If one makes a personal decision not to follow certain biblical commandments, they can certaintly find the scriptures that seem to agree with that ideology. But as shown above, there also many pro-law statments found in the NT, which prompted me to make this thread, and search for an understanding that wouldn't cause certain scriptures to disagree with eachother.
In regard to the scripture you posted from corinthinas, here's something to consider: Nearly all the scriptures that modern theologians use to justify the abolishment of the torah come from Paul's letters, and yet these same letters come with a warning label attached to them saying that they are difficult to understand, and can be easily misused. This is why I personally don't hold with using such scriptures by themselves to come to the conclusion that God's law is not for today. I instead take all scripture into account and try to find an understanding that won't cause contradictions. I hope that makes sense. God bless you.
In regard to the scripture you posted from corinthinas, here's something to consider: Nearly all the scriptures that modern theologians use to justify the abolishment of the torah come from Paul's letters, and yet these same letters come with a warning label attached to them saying that they are difficult to understand, and can be easily misused. This is why I personally don't hold with using such scriptures by themselves to come to the conclusion that God's law is not for today. I instead take all scripture into account and try to find an understanding that won't cause contradictions. I hope that makes sense. God bless you.
you are right that Paul is not easy to comprehend, and what he says is easily misapplied. but Paul is consistent too, and what he proclaims unceasingly is the true gospel. we agree that what he wrote, that we have today, is scripture.
that's why i wanted to point out circumcision - as he is very clear about it. circumcision is a command in the Torah, for the Jews. though we are spiritually children of Abraham too, through faith, Paul makes specific reference to obeying "God's commands" while emphatically calling circumcision "nothing."
i cannot see how then i can accept the complete law that was given to the Jews as what i should consider to be commanded for me to follow - it appears to be incontestable that the apostles didn't consider the Torah to apply to Gentile believers either, else Titus would have been compelled to be circumcised, Peter would not have rebuffed at the idea of subjecting them to 'a burden neither they nor their fathers could bear' and we certainly wouldn't have passages in Hebrews - whoever wrote it - saying that there has been a change in priesthood and in law.
the law isn't removed, but we are dead with regards to it. we are not judged by it.
that is also clear from Romans, and Galatians, and Hebrews.
ours is not the covenant made with Israel under Moses. that is clear from numerous OT prophets and also from Hebrews and other parts of the NT.
we have to be careful that our understanding doesn't contradict this, either, no matter how much we delight in Torah, because we are not justified by Torah - but by grace, through Christ's atoning blood, and that is very clear in all the epistles.
In responce to Paul saying that circucision is nothing, here's the whole scripture:
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. (1 Corinthians 7:19)
When you read Galatians, did you notice how after the Galatians were circumcised, they began to go back to paganism, and worshipping false Gods again? I referenced this in the original post. They were trying to be justified by their circumcision, without realizing that circumcision was just a physical sign of their commitment to follow God.
The way I understand it is, if you decide to be circumcised, new commitment is supposed to follow your circumcision, just like when you're baptised. It's like a way of showing God that your serious about your commitment to follow him.
Anyway, you mentioned that OT prophets agree that God's law was temporary, and wouldn't be relevent forever. I'd really appreciate it if you post those scriptures, because that would conclusively prove your point. Amos 3:7 shows that God does nothing unless he reveals it through his prophets.
Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. (Amos 3:7)
I see a lot of prophecies in Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Micah about the law being practiced during the thousand year reign. This is partly why I think it's unlikely that God would send Jesus Christ to do away with those same commandments. Here's just one example:
Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. (Isaiah 2:3)
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. (1 Corinthians 7:19)
When you read Galatians, did you notice how after the Galatians were circumcised, they began to go back to paganism, and worshipping false Gods again? I referenced this in the original post. They were trying to be justified by their circumcision, without realizing that circumcision was just a physical sign of their commitment to follow God.
The way I understand it is, if you decide to be circumcised, new commitment is supposed to follow your circumcision, just like when you're baptised. It's like a way of showing God that your serious about your commitment to follow him.
Anyway, you mentioned that OT prophets agree that God's law was temporary, and wouldn't be relevent forever. I'd really appreciate it if you post those scriptures, because that would conclusively prove your point. Amos 3:7 shows that God does nothing unless he reveals it through his prophets.
Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. (Amos 3:7)
I see a lot of prophecies in Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Micah about the law being practiced during the thousand year reign. This is partly why I think it's unlikely that God would send Jesus Christ to do away with those same commandments. Here's just one example:
Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. (Isaiah 2:3)
S
The arguments that are being presented to claim the Old Covenant ceremonial and ritualistic elements applies to New Covenant Christians are easily refuted.
Read the book Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff if it's a concern. It is very clear that the Old Covenant ceremonial and ritualistic elements are not required for New Covenant believers.
This guy is involved with listening to cultic sources like Restored Church of God and 119ministries.org.
Read the book Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff if it's a concern. It is very clear that the Old Covenant ceremonial and ritualistic elements are not required for New Covenant believers.
This guy is involved with listening to cultic sources like Restored Church of God and 119ministries.org.
that's not what i said. i said that a new covenant would be made. there are implications to that, of course, but to back up what i said, here's an example:
this is also tied to Ezekiel 37 -- because in Christ, what was dead has been made alive, just as God said He would do to His people. Paul expounds this explaining in Romans 6-7 how that we are dead to the law through Christ, an alive through Him to God - serving no more by a written code, but by Spirit. this is not the old covenant - no one is brought to life from the dead through observing Torah, but lives by obedience to it, and dies by disobedience.
Hebrews also testifies that there is a new covenant -- chapters 8-10 spell that out in detail, and explicitly in chapter 7 we're told that with Christ's advent, both the priesthood and the law have been changed.
we can't ignore this and still have a proper understanding of the covenant God has made with us. it is not the covenant He made with Israel -- if we are in Christ, we are not under the priesthood of Aaron, so we are not under the law of Moses which established that priesthood.
Paul's argument with the Galatians was that if they placed themselves under Moses, they also by necessity placed themselves under Aaron, and made Christ of no effect. the mystery prophesied in Jeremiah & revealed in Hebrews is that the Mosaic covenant was insufficient and passes away.
the Lord also spoke through Ezekiel of a new covenant to be made:
and again throughout Ezekiel chapter 34.
Jeremiah 31:31-34 English Standard Version (ESV)
31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke,though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke,though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
this is also tied to Ezekiel 37 -- because in Christ, what was dead has been made alive, just as God said He would do to His people. Paul expounds this explaining in Romans 6-7 how that we are dead to the law through Christ, an alive through Him to God - serving no more by a written code, but by Spirit. this is not the old covenant - no one is brought to life from the dead through observing Torah, but lives by obedience to it, and dies by disobedience.
Hebrews also testifies that there is a new covenant -- chapters 8-10 spell that out in detail, and explicitly in chapter 7 we're told that with Christ's advent, both the priesthood and the law have been changed.
If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood — and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood — why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?
For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.
(Hebrews 7:11-12)
For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.
(Hebrews 7:11-12)
we can't ignore this and still have a proper understanding of the covenant God has made with us. it is not the covenant He made with Israel -- if we are in Christ, we are not under the priesthood of Aaron, so we are not under the law of Moses which established that priesthood.
Paul's argument with the Galatians was that if they placed themselves under Moses, they also by necessity placed themselves under Aaron, and made Christ of no effect. the mystery prophesied in Jeremiah & revealed in Hebrews is that the Mosaic covenant was insufficient and passes away.
the Lord also spoke through Ezekiel of a new covenant to be made:
Ezekiel 16 New International Version (NIV)
59 “‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will deal with you as you deserve, because you have despised my oath by breaking the covenant. 60 Yet I will remember the covenant I made with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you receive your sisters, both those who are older than you and those who are younger. I will give them to you as daughters, but not on the basis of my covenant with you. 62 So I will establish my covenant with you, and you will know that I am the Lord. 63 Then, when I make atonement for you for all you have done, you will remember and be ashamed and never again open your mouth because of your humiliation, declares the Sovereign Lord.’”
59 “‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will deal with you as you deserve, because you have despised my oath by breaking the covenant. 60 Yet I will remember the covenant I made with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you receive your sisters, both those who are older than you and those who are younger. I will give them to you as daughters, but not on the basis of my covenant with you. 62 So I will establish my covenant with you, and you will know that I am the Lord. 63 Then, when I make atonement for you for all you have done, you will remember and be ashamed and never again open your mouth because of your humiliation, declares the Sovereign Lord.’”
and again throughout Ezekiel chapter 34.
B
Along with observing Torah, there is also an understanding to it as well.
The understanding part is rarely taught or talked about.
Someone of Torah observance cannot kill someone. Only the judges can carry out that order(which would have been the priests).
I'll explain the actual process of authorizing a stoning.
It's very similar to today's court system. Someone has to be accused, has to be brought to a court, etc.
To start off that eliminates this one there has to be temple/tabernacle (that would basically be the court room)
There has to be priests (those are the judge and jurry).
There are neither of those things today (I'll also go more into that later), so technically that rules it out.
Secondly there has to be an accuser, and there has to be minimum 2 witness.
If there is no accuser, and no minimum 2 witnesses the case is closed.
Third, Torah states to follow the laws of the land. Now with this I do believe it would mean in a reasonable sense, if there is a law that makes it to where you're turning against God such as like a law that states everyone has to bow down to an idol, I do believe in that case God gives grace and mercy one is to refuse to abide by that law of the land.
So in that, if someone is following Torah, they are going to abide and follow the judicial system of the country the live in, and not take matters into their own hand.
Now here is the 4th, final, and most important part of the understanding of Torah when it comes to death.
Yeshua is our judge and jurry.
Those who follow Torah and are saved through Messiah have an understanding on the fact that Yeshua is our judge and jurrer. We understand that He is our High Priest as well.
Yeshua said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
When Yeshua said this He was putting His stamp of authority on judge and jurry.
He got rid of the accusers and he got rid of the witnesses when he said this (because the accusers turned away).
And then Yeshua said repent and turn away from your sins to the adulteress.
So when comes to the stoning with sabbath that's something someone would, 1 need to understand the process of it, and 2 for those who do understand the process of it know it's not their place to make the judgement.
For those on here who chastize other for not following sabbath disgust me, because they claim to follow Torah, but they chastize those who do not, and unless they are a levitical priest they cannot carry out that judgement.
Along with that if they don't understand that Yeshua has brought the Melchizedek priesthood into place, which is why it puts Him as the High Priest, judge, and jurry.
So overall those who understand Torah understand this.
Those who do not understand Torah, automatically think there was a stoning everyday in ancient Israel. Which is definately not the case.
And I'm not just defending Torah observance when I give this spiel
If I see someone who has no Torah observance beliefs get attacked by an athiest about stoning, I defend the non-Torah observant person as well, because athiests do not understand it just as much as someone who is non-Torah observant doesn't understand it.
The understanding part is rarely taught or talked about.
Someone of Torah observance cannot kill someone. Only the judges can carry out that order(which would have been the priests).
I'll explain the actual process of authorizing a stoning.
It's very similar to today's court system. Someone has to be accused, has to be brought to a court, etc.
To start off that eliminates this one there has to be temple/tabernacle (that would basically be the court room)
There has to be priests (those are the judge and jurry).
There are neither of those things today (I'll also go more into that later), so technically that rules it out.
Secondly there has to be an accuser, and there has to be minimum 2 witness.
If there is no accuser, and no minimum 2 witnesses the case is closed.
Third, Torah states to follow the laws of the land. Now with this I do believe it would mean in a reasonable sense, if there is a law that makes it to where you're turning against God such as like a law that states everyone has to bow down to an idol, I do believe in that case God gives grace and mercy one is to refuse to abide by that law of the land.
So in that, if someone is following Torah, they are going to abide and follow the judicial system of the country the live in, and not take matters into their own hand.
Now here is the 4th, final, and most important part of the understanding of Torah when it comes to death.
Yeshua is our judge and jurry.
Those who follow Torah and are saved through Messiah have an understanding on the fact that Yeshua is our judge and jurrer. We understand that He is our High Priest as well.
Yeshua said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
When Yeshua said this He was putting His stamp of authority on judge and jurry.
He got rid of the accusers and he got rid of the witnesses when he said this (because the accusers turned away).
And then Yeshua said repent and turn away from your sins to the adulteress.
So when comes to the stoning with sabbath that's something someone would, 1 need to understand the process of it, and 2 for those who do understand the process of it know it's not their place to make the judgement.
For those on here who chastize other for not following sabbath disgust me, because they claim to follow Torah, but they chastize those who do not, and unless they are a levitical priest they cannot carry out that judgement.
Along with that if they don't understand that Yeshua has brought the Melchizedek priesthood into place, which is why it puts Him as the High Priest, judge, and jurry.
So overall those who understand Torah understand this.
Those who do not understand Torah, automatically think there was a stoning everyday in ancient Israel. Which is definately not the case.
And I'm not just defending Torah observance when I give this spiel
If I see someone who has no Torah observance beliefs get attacked by an athiest about stoning, I defend the non-Torah observant person as well, because athiests do not understand it just as much as someone who is non-Torah observant doesn't understand it.
So would you say it's ok to observe the torah as a means of pleasing God, aside from trying to obtain salvation through works? I thought that was the OP was getting at. If I startedkeeping those commandments it would cause some radical changes in my life. But if it's what God wants, I'd be willing to try it out. I've been told that obeying the torah and believing in christ are mutually exclusive but never really took the time to test it to the bible.
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S
Please note the hypocrisy of some who claim to be Torah observers.
This guy was banned under two different user IDs and then set up a new user ID, lying about his age and marital status and using deceit to bypass a ban.
He praises the author of another thread of his, which was himself, and then sets up this Torah thread.
Why would someone preach keeping the whole Law, including physical circumcision, when they don't even follow an unquestionable moral absolute concerning lying to evade a ban?
As a Christian, I would not set up a user ID to evade a ban as it would be an act of deceitfulness, let alone lie about my user information on a profile.
This guy was banned under two different user IDs and then set up a new user ID, lying about his age and marital status and using deceit to bypass a ban.
He praises the author of another thread of his, which was himself, and then sets up this Torah thread.
Why would someone preach keeping the whole Law, including physical circumcision, when they don't even follow an unquestionable moral absolute concerning lying to evade a ban?
As a Christian, I would not set up a user ID to evade a ban as it would be an act of deceitfulness, let alone lie about my user information on a profile.
I asked that same question legitimately in another sabbath thread the other week because I was reading Exodus and noticed the command to put to death those not observing the sabbath. That's just as much a command as the command to observe it. Don't think I got a reply but I haven't been back to the thread to check..
Bible logic was explaining how the capital punishment was authorized and carried out by the government, instead of random vigilantes like I assumed it was referring to. But as for the act itself of execution for working on the sabbath, I wouldn't question God's motives, because his ways are a lot higher than our ways, and we can't always understand his reasononing. I kind of get it in the case of the isrealites, because they knew God personally. He was very active in their lives, so they had no excuse whatsoever for disobeying him.
B
Yes, and everyone who fully understands Torah observance should know that it is not a means of salvation, but it's obediance to God in accordance with salvation, not for salvation.
There are people that are going to say it has to be done for salvation, and there are going to be people who say it's completely done away with, and there's going to be people who say you cannot do both together.
Combining the 2 together does take some time and understanding. It took me about 3-4 years to get to the understanding that I have, and I love it. It's help increase spiritual awareness and has helped in my relationship with Yeshua.
Most people who are interested in Torah observance go 1 of 2 ways.
1 they jump into it and take so much information and go to fast and then start twisting the observance (those are your legalists)
and then
2 someone jumps in too quickly and gets overwhelmed and turns from it, and the chastizes those who do it.
You have to go in the middle, you have to be wanting to learn the understanding of it, and you want to go slow on it and remember that you are doing it as far as obedience and no salvation. Most of all you want to have the spirit guide you.
I call it taking baby steps.
To someone who wants to start following Torah as an obedience to God, I would say pick 1 of the commandments outside of the 10 commandments ( the 10 commandments is a given and something that I think everyone can handle because it's basics and it's more of a summarization of the whole of Torah). You pick that 1 commandment, and you study it. Both with the OT scriptures and the NT scriptures, and let the Holy Spirit guide you on your study.
Idk if that answers your question, but for a direct answer it would. Yes I believe it's ok to observe out of obedience, because that's the only way it should be observed.
There are people that are going to say it has to be done for salvation, and there are going to be people who say it's completely done away with, and there's going to be people who say you cannot do both together.
Combining the 2 together does take some time and understanding. It took me about 3-4 years to get to the understanding that I have, and I love it. It's help increase spiritual awareness and has helped in my relationship with Yeshua.
Most people who are interested in Torah observance go 1 of 2 ways.
1 they jump into it and take so much information and go to fast and then start twisting the observance (those are your legalists)
and then
2 someone jumps in too quickly and gets overwhelmed and turns from it, and the chastizes those who do it.
You have to go in the middle, you have to be wanting to learn the understanding of it, and you want to go slow on it and remember that you are doing it as far as obedience and no salvation. Most of all you want to have the spirit guide you.
I call it taking baby steps.
To someone who wants to start following Torah as an obedience to God, I would say pick 1 of the commandments outside of the 10 commandments ( the 10 commandments is a given and something that I think everyone can handle because it's basics and it's more of a summarization of the whole of Torah). You pick that 1 commandment, and you study it. Both with the OT scriptures and the NT scriptures, and let the Holy Spirit guide you on your study.
Idk if that answers your question, but for a direct answer it would. Yes I believe it's ok to observe out of obedience, because that's the only way it should be observed.
S
Note that the guy who created this thread, again, took his materials straight from 119ministries.org which is a Judaizing group, and does not give credit to the source.
The Pauline Paradox Series - Part 2 | 119 Ministries
He has done this on other threads. He is basically just a shill for Judaizing heretics, including 119ministries.com and Restored Church of God, an Armstrongite cult.
The Pauline Paradox Series - Part 2 | 119 Ministries
He has done this on other threads. He is basically just a shill for Judaizing heretics, including 119ministries.com and Restored Church of God, an Armstrongite cult.
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F
I would like to say something here as well. I am always puzzled how people talk about the Old Testament as obsolete and done away with and the new being something so new! well when I read the bible, there is only ONE bible forming the big picture. Nothing has changed as far as I can see except the sacrificial laws and that is a part of the picture - and it didn't CHANGE either, just what is the sacrifice - Christ fulfilled that part as our perfect sacrifice. But God doesn't change! If you really look at the large picture, you can see it's really only just one book. Or that is how I have always seen it.
I hear people quote things like the Old Testament says an "eye for an eye" and the New Testament saying "love your enemies" and I see no discrepancy here either! People were abusing the laws and their hearts wicked. Jesus just pointed out the motives and what really matters. The condition of your heart! And that is not to have revenge yet have justice however. Don't hold a grudge if you are sincerely asked for forgiveness and so fourth..all comes down to the condition of your heart.
I hear people quote things like the Old Testament says an "eye for an eye" and the New Testament saying "love your enemies" and I see no discrepancy here either! People were abusing the laws and their hearts wicked. Jesus just pointed out the motives and what really matters. The condition of your heart! And that is not to have revenge yet have justice however. Don't hold a grudge if you are sincerely asked for forgiveness and so fourth..all comes down to the condition of your heart.
S
The Old Covenant was an agreement between God and the nation of Israel (Ex. 31:12-17). The Ten Commandments are a summary of the Old Covenant (Ex 31:18, 34:28; Deut 4:13, 9:9, 11). The Old Covenant is no longer in effect for anyone (2 Cor 3:4-18, Gal 3:17-25, Heb 8:13-9:4). The Sabbath, therefore, is not in effect for anyone (Gal 4:10, Rom 14:5-6, Col 2:16-17). Christians are under the New Covenant, which has higher demands and different commandments (Luke 22:20, Heb 9:15; Jn 13:34, 15:12, 17; Rom 13:10). The chief of those commandments is to love others as Christ loved us (Jn 13:34).
The Sabbath was a sign of the Old Covenant between God and Israel (Ex. 31:16-17). A sign is an identifying mark, and the Sabbath identified the nation of Israel as distinct from the other nations. Christians are not parties to the Old Covenant, which was between God and Israel.
The Sabbath was a sign of the Old Covenant between God and Israel (Ex. 31:16-17). A sign is an identifying mark, and the Sabbath identified the nation of Israel as distinct from the other nations. Christians are not parties to the Old Covenant, which was between God and Israel.