The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints

luigi · Dec 15, 2020

yes that curse is the Result of breaking of the old covenant

“A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭11:27-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

do you know the seven seals ? Those are the judgements from the law that we’re guaranteed to come on them and then the world later if they broke the covenant he made with them through moses it was a blessing or a curse they made it a curse

for instance the first four judgements from the seals are in the law as a curse when they broke it

“And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭6:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For thus saith the Lord God; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭14:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But because Jerusalem was sent into all the world the curse followed them as did the gospel and salvation for it

“A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭5:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I will persecute them with the sword, with the famine, and with the pestilence, and will deliver them to be removed to all the kingdoms of the earth, to be a curse, and an astonishment, and an hissing, and a reproach, among all the nations whither I have driven them:”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭29:18‬ ‭

Israel’s judgements from breaking the law spread into all the world . Those seals are Jesus who has now fulfilled the law for all man ,who was the only one who could do that , now sending forth the judgements of the law and prophets into the world upon those of the curse who reject salvation and the book of life the New Testament of the lord Jesus

the old covenant is curse and witnessed of a new covenant to come in Christ , the one that would be open to all people not sealed to all

Isaiah 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

I recognize the the everlasting covenant that is broken causing the earth to be defiled under the inhabitants thereof (Isaiah 24:5), to be that of the beast's consumerism policies that cause all the plagues in Revelation 8 & 9, and has the earth's weather patterns reeling to and fro like a drunkard (Isaiah 24:20).

Isaiah 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

Pilgrimshope · Dec 15, 2020

luigi said:

Sorry to get back to you so late, but a couple of things came up.
As the Lord calls John to heaven in Revelation 4:1 to be shown events in the hereafter; the travailing woman and male child in Revelation 12 is then not a historical accounting of the Lords birth, but is instead a future event; one that occurs when the two witnesses are testifying, while the dragon, the beast, and the beast's mouth (the false prophet, the Antichrist) are doing their thing.
If you check out Micah 5 you will see the Lord giving up His days on earth (His crucifixion), until the woman in travail has brought forth (Micah 5:3). The woman in travail are all currently double minded Christians, which is pretty much all of us. During the great tribulation/travailing, those who do not fall away will become single minded (the male child). This new entity will do works as those of Christ, with power like Christ (Micah 7:16).

Micah 5:3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.
Micah 7:16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.

Ok thanks again for the discussion God bless

BenjaminN · Dec 15, 2020

Matthew 24 (New King James Version)

The Great Tribulation
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect (G1588 Strongs numbering - Greek "eklektos"). 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Strongs 1588 Greek Eklektos meaning click here:

picked out, chosen
1. chosen by God,
  1. to obtain salvation through Christ
    1. Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
  2. the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
  3. choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

Ahwatukee · Dec 15, 2020

BenjaminN said:

'The elect' would be referring to the remnant of Israel and the great tribulation saints, introduced in Rev.7:9-17
The church will have already been gathered prior to God's wrath.

awelight · Dec 15, 2020

Pilgrimshope said:

You gave a lot of Scripture that talks about the Great Tribulation and the End days... a lot of these Scriptures are meant for a Jewish audience and have no application to the church. Almost all of your quotes come out of Matthew, who portrayed Jesus Christ as the "Coming King". While Christ coming as "King" is a wonderful thing, it is not the hope of the universal church which Christ is building. He is our "High Priest" and the churches future "Groom". The Jewish believers are never called the "Bride of Christ" You fail to distinguish the differences of these two groups. I would give you Scripture here but I am not convinced this would do any good.

You claim you have an open mind but stay steadfastly argumentative on your position. I see no indication that you truly want to learn what Scripture teaches. You gave no quotes from the book of John, who portrayed Christ as the God-Man... here is one or two to consider:

John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus was speaking only to His Disciples here, the beginning of the church. There were no outsiders (Jews), present at the time. The Jews were expecting the establishment of the Kingdom, a fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. What Jesus told His disciples in John 14, had nothing to do with the Kingdom being established.

I also noted, that you did not quote any of the things pertaining to the End Times or possible rapture out of Paul's writings and Peter's writings. Why not? You can't create a Doctrine around just what Matthew wrote. A believable and defensible Doctrine must harmonize with all Scripture..... from Gen.1:1 to Rev. 22:21.

Just trying to help.

BenjaminN · Dec 15, 2020

Greek "Ekpheugo" (English "Escape, Seek safety in flight") <> Greek "Harpazo", (English "Raptured, caught up, pluck, pull by force, snatch out or away")

Greek "Ekpheugo" (English "Escape, Seek safety in flight")

Luke 21 (New King James Version)

The Importance of Watching
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with [h]carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may [i]be counted worthy to escape (Strongs number G1628, Greek: "Ekpheugo", English: "Flee out, escape flee, flee away, seek safety in flight" - This is NOT alluding to the rapture / Greek "Harpazo") all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

For Greek meaning of Ekpheugo click here:

to flee out of, flee away
1. to seek safety in flight
2. to escape

Uses:

Luk 21:36
“Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy[fn] to escape (Strongs number G1628, Greek: "Ekpheugo", English: "Flee out, escape flee, flee away, seek safety in flight") all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Act 16:27
And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled (Strongs number G1628, Greek: "Ekpheugo", English: "Flee out, escape flee, flee away, seek safety in flight"), drew his sword and was about to kill himself.

Act 19:16
Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered[fn] them, and prevailed against them,[fn] so that they fled (Strongs number G1628, Greek: "Ekpheugo", English: "Flee out, escape flee, flee away, seek safety in flight") out of that house naked and wounded.

Rom 2:3
And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape (Strongs number G1628, Greek: "Ekpheugo", English: "Flee out, escape flee, flee away, seek safety in flight") the judgment of God?

2Co 11:33
but I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and escaped (Strongs number G1628, Greek: "Ekpheugo", English: "Flee out, escape flee, flee away, seek safety in flight") from his hands.

1Th 5:3
For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape (Strongs number G1628, Greek: "Ekpheugo", English: "Flee out, escape flee, flee away, seek safety in flight").

Heb 2:3
how shall we escape (Strongs number G1628, Greek: "Ekpheugo", English: "Flee out, escape flee, flee away, seek safety in flight") if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,

BenjaminN · Dec 15, 2020

Greek "Ekpheugo" (English "Escape, Seek safety in flight") <> Greek "Harpazo", (English "Raptured, caught up, pluck, pull by force, snatch out or away")

Greek "Harpazo", (English "Raptured, caught up, pluck, pull by force, snatch out or away"):

1 Thessalonians 4 (New King James Version)

The Comfort of Christ’s Coming
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away" - This is NOT alluding to the escape to seek safety in flight / Greek "Ekpheugo") together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

For meaning of Greek Harpazo click here

to seize, carry off by force
to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
to snatch out or away

Uses:

Mat 11:12
“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away").

Mat 13:19
“When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away") what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

Jhn 6:15
Therefore when Jesus perceived that they were about to come and take Him by force (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away") to make Him king, He departed again to the mountain by Himself alone.

Jhn 10:12
“But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away") the sheep and scatters them.

Jhn 10:28
“And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away") them out of My hand.

Jhn 10:29
“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away") them out of My Father’s hand.

Act 8:39
Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away") Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

Act 23:10
Now when there arose a great dissension, the commander, fearing lest Paul might be pulled to pieces by them, commanded the soldiers to go down and take him by force (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away") from among them, and bring him into the barracks.

2Co 12:2
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away") to the third heaven.

2Co 12:4
how he was caught up (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away") into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

1Th 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away") together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Jde 1:23
but others save with fear, pulling them out (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away") of the fire,[fn] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

Rev 12:5
She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away") to God and His throne.

BenjaminN · Dec 15, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

The saints in the great tribulation sealed by God, are not appointed to God's wrath only to the anti-christ's persecution. Only those sealed with the mark of the beast are subject to God's wrath.

John 16 (New King James Version)
33 "In the world you [f]will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

Tribulation of Christians by anti-christians or an anti-christ <> Wrath of God
Believing Jews & Gentiles = Body of Christ, renewed Israel (fellow heirs to the promises, the promise of the 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth from Jerusalem and even promises of persecution and tribulation preceding the millennium kingdom)
Elect = Eklektos (G1588 Strongs numbering) = "Chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God, the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable)

For meaning of Greek Eklektos click here

God's believers are his Elect / Eklektos, whether believing Jews (Jesus' disciples turned apostles, the apostle Paul, or Jews of the early church and messianic Jews today) or believing Gentiles (Gentiles of the early church and believers from the nations today), they the believing Jews and Gentiles are united in the Body of Christ / Christ's renewed Israel with the believing Gentiles as fellow heirs to the believing Jews, all having the same destiny.

Ephesians 3 (New King James Version)
The Mystery Revealed
3 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the [a]dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

BenjaminN · Dec 15, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

Elect = Eklektos (G1588 Strongs numbering) = "Chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God, the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable)

Elect / Greek Eklektos (Strongs number G1588):

Uses:

Mat 20:16
“So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen. (Eklektos - G1588 Strongs - "Chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians)[fn]

Mat 22:14
“For many are called, but few are chosen. (Eklektos - G1588 Strongs - "Chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians)

Mat 24:22
“And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s (Eklektos - G1588 Strongs - "Chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians) sake those days will be shortened.

Mat 24:24
“For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. (Eklektos - G1588 Strongs - "Chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians)

Mat 24:31
“And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect (Eklektos - G1588 Strongs - "Chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:20
“And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s (Eklektos - G1588 Strongs - "Chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians) sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Mar 13:22
“For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect (Eklektos - G1588 Strongs - "Chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians).

Mar 13:27
“And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect (Eklektos - G1588 Strongs - "Chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians) from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Luk 18:7
“And shall God not avenge His own elect (Eklektos - G1588 Strongs - "Chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians) who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?

Luk 23:35
And the people stood looking on. But even the rulers with them sneered, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen (Eklektos - G1588 Strongs - "Chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians) of God.”

Rom 8:33
Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect (Eklektos - G1588 Strongs - "Chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians) ? It is God who justifies.

Rom 16:13
Greet Rufus, chosen (Eklektos - G1588 Strongs - "Chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians) in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

Col 3:12
Therefore, as the elect (Eklektos - G1588 Strongs - "Chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians) of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;

1Ti 5:21
I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect (Eklektos - G1588 Strongs - "Chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians) angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.

2Ti 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect (Eklektos - G1588 Strongs - "Chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians), that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Tit 1:1
Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect (Eklektos - G1588 Strongs - "Chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians) and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness,

1Pe 1:2
elect (Eklektos - G1588 Strongs - "Chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

1Pe 2:4
Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen (Eklektos - G1588 Strongs - "Chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians) by God and precious,

1Pe 2:6
Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,
“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect (Eklektos - G1588 Strongs - "Chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians), precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”[fn]

1Pe 2:9
But you are a chosen (Eklektos - G1588 Strongs - "Chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians) generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

2Jo 1:1
The Elder,
To the elect (Eklektos - G1588 Strongs - "Chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians) lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all those who have known the truth,

2Jo 1:13
The children of your elect (Eklektos - G1588 Strongs - "Chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians) sister greet you. Amen.

Rev 17:14
“These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen (Eklektos - G1588 Strongs - "Chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians), and faithful.”

Hevosmies · Dec 15, 2020

BenjaminN said:

Matthew 24 (New King James Version)

The Great Tribulation
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect (G1588 Strongs numbering - Greek "eklektos"). 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Strongs 1588 Greek Eklektos meaning click here:

picked out, chosen
1. chosen by God,
  1. to obtain salvation through Christ
    1. Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
  2. the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
  3. choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

Love this channel! AOC NETWORK. This is a solid individual!

BenjaminN · Dec 15, 2020

Hevosmies said:

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 15, 2020

BenjaminN said:

Agree... that these are entirely distinct words... speaking in entirely distinct contexts, about entirely distinct items:

--"harpazo [G726]" ("caught up/-away," or what we commonly call "rapture") pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" [ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"] (Paul refers to this event using a VARIETY of terms (not merely this ONE word, "harpazo") throughout his two epistles to the Thessalonians;

--"ekpheugo [G1628]" - ("FLEE OUT OF") is mostly in the "active voice" (or a cpl times in the "middle voice") -- this is NOT referring to "our Rapture" event/timing, AT ALL, but applies (in eschatological contexts) to those who will be existing on the earth FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (example: ALL "Son of man coming/cometh/shall come/coming of/etc" contexts are speaking of His Second Coming to the earth [NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" point in time]--and we see this wording in the Lk21:36 CONTEXT, in v.27[/36])

Agreed.

The "ekpheugo [G1628]" word applies to those AFTER "our Rapture," who will be existing in the trib years... (and applies in both a POSITIVE WAY [positive outcomes--like in Lk21:36] OR a NEGATIVE WAY [negative outcomes--like in 1Th5:2-3]).

That is NOT the "rapture/harpazo/SNATCH" item, see.

But, again, these two distinct words are speaking of ENTIRELY DISTINCT time-frames, thus ENTIRELY DISTINCT persons (to whom they pertain / apply)

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 15, 2020

Acts 1:24 - "And having prayed, they said, "You Lord, knower of the hearts of all, show which one of these two You have chosen [G1586 - exelexo / eklego]"

[please don't tell me you think the other guy had to go to hell, because he wasn't "chosen," here... (???)]

Absolutely · Dec 15, 2020

awelight said:

You gave a lot of Scripture that talks about the Great Tribulation and the End days... a lot of these Scriptures are meant for a Jewish audience and have no application to the church. Almost all of your quotes come out of Matthew, who portrayed Jesus Christ as the "Coming King". While Christ coming as "King" is a wonderful thing, it is not the hope of the universal church which Christ is building. He is our "High Priest" and the churches future "Groom". The Jewish believers are never called the "Bride of Christ" You fail to distinguish the differences of these two groups. I would give you Scripture here but I am not convinced this would do any good.

You claim you have an open mind but stay steadfastly argumentative on your position. I see no indication that you truly want to learn what Scripture teaches. You gave no quotes from the book of John, who portrayed Christ as the God-Man... here is one or two to consider:

John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus was speaking only to His Disciples here, the beginning of the church. There were no outsiders (Jews), present at the time. The Jews were expecting the establishment of the Kingdom, a fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. What Jesus told His disciples in John 14, had nothing to do with the Kingdom being established.

I also noted, that you did not quote any of the things pertaining to the End Times or possible rapture out of Paul's writings and Peter's writings. Why not? You can't create a Doctrine around just what Matthew wrote. A believable and defensible Doctrine must harmonize with all Scripture..... from Gen.1:1 to Rev. 22:21.

Just trying to help.

Correct.
He has no open mind.
He is steadfast in his beliefs.

Blade · Dec 15, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

Something I have suffered? Suffered with all my life is words and writing. Hint .. when I post? It can take me hour or more. I know what I am thinking but after writing it anyway.

I read the word and I see caught up but I can not find that verse. I will not run with speculation. I will not twist His word to point to something I personally believe. So what I can find is to always be watching and ready for at any moment He is coming. Paul used the word "WE" . That to me speaks volumes. Knowing the OT and to go and shut the door until the Fathers wrath is over "
Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you "Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past."

Then enemy will never be given power over me as he does get in the great tribulation. Something changes after it/He is taken out of the way. So I was not promised tomorrow. So do I just live and hope have faith in a day I might never see? No.. I have faith now. This is the moment He gave. Since there is no PRE MID POST verse I will not twist it to fit how what I personally believe. I will not run with speculation. So exactly like Paul we that remain when He comes in the air will be caught up. He is coming I am ready now!

many can just say it lol the way I think it.. bless you. I agree

Edit.. also writing.. its the main reason I don't reply. I LOVE TO but.. takes so long.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 15, 2020

For anyone interested...

Notice what Paul says in the following passage (to/for/about "the Church which is His body" [us/we], per context)... it is important to see how verses 6 and 10 have the SAME GREEK WORDS [same 2 Grk words as each other (that is, in both verses 6 and 10)]

1 Thessalonians 5:6-11 -

6 So then we should not sleep [G2518 - katheudōmen] as the others,

but we should watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen] and we should be sober.

7 For those sleeping, sleep by night; and those becoming drunk, get drunk by night.

8 But we being of the day should be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet, the hope of salvation,

9 because God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 the One having died for us, so that whether we might watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen]
OR we might sleep [G2518 - katheudōmen],

we may live together with [*G4862 - syn - 'UNIONED-with'/'IDENTIFIED-with'] Him.

11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as also you are doing.

...note that THIS [Grk word for] "SLEEP" is an altogether distinct Grk word from the "sleep [G2837 - koimōmenōn / koimēthentas] of the PREVIOUS CHPT, in 1 Thessalonians 4:13,14,15 (<--those speaking of "the DEAD in Christ" of v.16).

1Th5:6,10 is not speaking of being "asleep / sleeping" in death, like the previous chpt is (because this v.10 is in the context of v.6, here).

So this passage is saying [speaking TO/FOR/ABOUT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"] that
"whether we may watch, OR whether we may sleep"...

which is distinct from what certain passages are stating in the Olivet Discourse, for example, and other related passages (like Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 [also not a "Rapture" passage, per context), etc.

[...]

[and]

ALL of the following refer to "the DEAD [/asleep / having fallen asleep - G2837 - koimōmenōn / koimēthentas] in Christ":

1Th4:13 - https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-13.htm
1Th4:14 - https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-14.htm
1Th4:15 - https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-15.htm

ALL of the following, use a DIFFERENT "sleep" word [G2518 - katheudōmen], that is NOT referring to "the DEAD in Christ [those of the Body who have physically died]" like the PREVIOUS CHPT was referring to, and should be understood within its own context in relation to what verse 5 had just conveyed (etc):

1Th5:6 - https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/5-6.htm
1Th5:10 - https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/5-10.htm

[*this is a DISTINCT "with" word from that found in, say, Matt25:10 about the "5 Virgins [PLURAL]" (about "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER"--and their entrance into the earthly MK age [these are NOT "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]"]), which "with" word is "G3326 - meta - with, accompanying," instead]

BenjaminN · Dec 15, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

Acts 1:24 - "And having prayed, they said, "You Lord, knower of the hearts of all, show which one of these two You have chosen [G1586 - exelexo / eklego]"

[please don't tell me you think the other guy had to go to hell, because he wasn't "chosen," here... (???)]

G1588 <> G1586

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 15, 2020

BenjaminN said:

And "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" ≠ "the 10 [or even, 5] VirginS [PLURAL],"

...however you continue to conflate them (and passages regarding each of these).

["the FRIEND of the Bridegroom" (Jn3:29 re JtB) is ALSO *not* "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" = ) ... nor are the "guests [PLURAL]" etc...]

BenjaminN · Dec 15, 2020

awelight said:

awelight: "Jesus was speaking only to His Disciples here, the beginning of the church. There were no outsiders (Jews), present at the time. "

Christ Yeshua and all his disciples were Jewish. Believing or to-be-believing Jews are not to be separated from the Body of Christ. No believers are appointed for God's wrath, not the present day Church, not the early Church consisting of Jews and Gentiles as "fellow heirs", not messianic Jews today or in future, and not the tribulation saints either - but all believers in the atonement offering of Christ Yeshua are subject to face possible persecution and tribulation in life.

Ephesians 3 (New King James Version)
The Mystery Revealed
1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2if indeed you have heard of the [a]dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

Romans 11 (New King James Version )
Israel’s Rejection Not Final
25For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

BenjaminN · Dec 15, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

Persecution and tribulation of Christians who do not take the mark of the beast, the anti-christ <> Wrath of God poured out on those that take the mark of the beast, the anti-christ

There is only two choices for all in the final generation, only two camps of peoples, during the period of the anti-christ's reign during the great tribulation, God's final harvest time, the separation of the wheat from the chaff:
either an individual is part of the
1. Persecution and tribulation of Christians who do not take the mark of the beast, the anti-christ
or an individual is part of the
2. Wrath of God poured out on those that take the mark of the beast, the anti-christ

John the Baptist (a Jew) is also part of the Bride, the Body of Christ, and suffered persecution and tribulation by having his head chopped off - it was not the wrath of God however. No believer is appointed for the wrath of God, and not believing Jews and tribulation saints either. Believing Jews and believing Gentiles are part of the Body of Christ Yeshua, the Prince of God the King's to-be-restored kingdom on this earth during the 1000 years millennial reign of Christ Yeshua, reigning together with those first resurrected who died in Christ and those believers that remain at the time of Christ Yeshua's second coming. A great tribulations suffered by tribulation saints Christians, sealed by God, at the hand of a future anti-christ is not the wrath of God, the wrath of God that will be experienced during this same three and a half year period will ONLY be by those that take the mark of the anti-christ.

Revelation 16 (New King James Version)
The Seven Bowls
1Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the [a]bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.”
First Bowl: Loathsome Sores
2So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.

Revelation 20 (New King James Version)
The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years
4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints

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