The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
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Well, see my Post #400 (where I put greater detail concerning this particular Subject)... you may not have seen that post. = )
[it is a matter of only a "split-second" difference
... but one I believe is important to trace out, since so many folks tend to blur distinct items together thus missing (sometimes) "the point" being conveyed]
[it is a matter of only a "split-second" difference
... but one I believe is important to trace out, since so many folks tend to blur distinct items together thus missing (sometimes) "the point" being conveyed]^ As for "WRATH" commencing at the FIRST SEAL, consider a post I put some time back:
[excerpt of old post]
... and I believe parallel wording between 2Th2:7b-8a and Lam2:3-4... IOW, "the enemy" is His rod/tool/instrument "of My anger" like Isa10:5,6 says, and like this Lam2:3-4 says "He hath drawn back His right hand from before the enemy" (i.e. lifting His RESTRAINT and letting 'im at 'em! [i.e. opening SEAL #1]), and like Hab1:[6,]12b says "thou hast ordained them [the Chaldeans/Babylonians, v.6] for/as judgment; and...hast established them [the Chaldeans/Babylonians, v.6] for correction")
[end quoting excerpt from post]
____________
"the One delivering us out-from THE WRATH COMING" 1Th1:10 (the "us" referring to "the Church which is His body" [ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"])
[excerpt of old post]
... and I believe parallel wording between 2Th2:7b-8a and Lam2:3-4... IOW, "the enemy" is His rod/tool/instrument "of My anger" like Isa10:5,6 says, and like this Lam2:3-4 says "He hath drawn back His right hand from before the enemy" (i.e. lifting His RESTRAINT and letting 'im at 'em! [i.e. opening SEAL #1]), and like Hab1:[6,]12b says "thou hast ordained them [the Chaldeans/Babylonians, v.6] for/as judgment; and...hast established them [the Chaldeans/Babylonians, v.6] for correction")
[end quoting excerpt from post]
____________
"the One delivering us out-from THE WRATH COMING" 1Th1:10 (the "us" referring to "the Church which is His body" [ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"])
Well, see my Post #400 (where I put greater detail concerning this particular Subject)... you may not have seen that post. = )
[it is a matter of only a "split-second" difference ... but one I believe is important to trace out, since so many folks tend to blur distinct items together thus missing (sometimes) "the point" being conveyed]
[it is a matter of only a "split-second" difference
... but one I believe is important to trace out, since so many folks tend to blur distinct items together thus missing (sometimes) "the point" being conveyed]
Well, let me put it like this... I am "[Rapture is] PRE-each-of-the-following]
[quoting old post]
When I talk about "the Tribulation," I could be referring to any of the following, which take place [at some point or throughout/] during those 7 years leading up to Christ's Second Coming to the earth (FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" there):
--The Day of the Lord (which includes: the 7-yr trib unfolding upon the earth, His 2nd Coming to the earth, AND the earthly MK), and particularly its "ARRIVAL-point-in-time"
--the time of Jacob's Trouble
--"the GREAT tribulation" (this is the 2nd half of the 7 yrs; Rev7:14, Matt24:21, Joel 2:31 "before the GREAT [i.e. before the 2nd half]" [6th SEAL happens])
--"the end [singular] of the age [singular]" (wholly distinct from "this present age/this present evil age [singular]")
--"the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" (first portion of trib, equivalent to the SEALS)
--the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular; 1Th5:2-3]" (i.e. the ARRIVAL of the Day of the Lord time-period/trib)
--the "time, times, half a time" (3.5 yrs, the second half of the 7-yr trib)
--the "42 months" (3.5 yrs, the second half of the 7-yr trib)
--the "IN HIS TIME" of the man of sin (7 yrs; the "for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]" of Dan9:27a[26b]; the "whose coming" of 2Th2:9a; the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect of the DOTL Dan7:7; the "be revealed" of the man of sin, at the START of the 7-yr trib [i.e. SEAL #1])
--the "until the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled" (referring to Gentile domination over Israel, which "TIMES of the Gentiles" started in 605bc and will conclude [with and] at the END of the future 7-yr trib, at the time of His Second Coming to the earth)--This does NOT refer to "the Church age" (and is entirely distinct from "the FULNESS of the Gentiles be come in [G1525]")
--"thou [Daniel] shall rest [in death] and STAND IN THY LOT [be resurrected to stand again on the earth] AT THE END OF THE DAYS [at the end of the days referred to in that context, that is, at the END of the trib (for OT saints)]"
--the "DARK" portion of the Day of the Lord (7 years; Amos 5:18,20; 1Th5; etc)
--"[the One delivering us out-from] the WRATH COMING" ("not appointed us to wrath")
--the 70th Week of Daniel (7 yrs, yet future; "Seventy Weeks are DETERMINED UPON THY [Daniel's] people, AND UPON THY [Daniel's] holy city..." [69 of those Weeks concluded on Palm Sunday, Luke 19:42-44 / Zech9:9, etc])
--the 7 yrs during which "the invitation" TO the "wedding FEAST/SUPPER [earthly MK]" goes out (Rev19:9 [wholly distinct from Rev19:7]; Matt22:9-14nasb; Matt24:14/26:13; [results shown in Rev7:9,14 and Matt25:31-46, etc])
--the Olivet Discourse describing it [except for Lk21:12-24a about the events of 70ad]
--"...to shew unto His servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (7-yrs' worth; the "future" aspects of The Revelation [1:1/19:c/4:1], chpts 6-19 describing the 7 years [yet 'future' and 'future' to our Rapture], with the end of chpts 6-19, chpt 19, describing His 2nd Coming to the earth)
--when Jesus "STANDS TO JUDGE" (Rev4-5, 5:6; Lam2:1-7, esp vv3-4; Isa3:13); which the wording in 5:4 "WAS FOUND" shows that a "searching judgment" has already taken place (JUST LIKE this word is used in the latter chpts of Acts, when Paul was brought before their human/earthly "BEMA" [the courts, so to speak])
--[more...; these were just the ones that came immediately to mind]
Any questions?
[end quoting that old post]
____________
So, yeah... "PRE-[any and all of THAT ^ ]" (to be clear, I believe we "RETURN" WITH HIM, FOR the earthly MK or at least its inauguration/"wedding FEAST/SUPPER" on the earth)
[quoting old post]
When I talk about "the Tribulation," I could be referring to any of the following, which take place [at some point or throughout/] during those 7 years leading up to Christ's Second Coming to the earth (FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" there):
--The Day of the Lord (which includes: the 7-yr trib unfolding upon the earth, His 2nd Coming to the earth, AND the earthly MK), and particularly its "ARRIVAL-point-in-time"
--the time of Jacob's Trouble
--"the GREAT tribulation" (this is the 2nd half of the 7 yrs; Rev7:14, Matt24:21, Joel 2:31 "before the GREAT [i.e. before the 2nd half]" [6th SEAL happens])
--"the end [singular] of the age [singular]" (wholly distinct from "this present age/this present evil age [singular]")
--"the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" (first portion of trib, equivalent to the SEALS)
--the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular; 1Th5:2-3]" (i.e. the ARRIVAL of the Day of the Lord time-period/trib)
--the "time, times, half a time" (3.5 yrs, the second half of the 7-yr trib)
--the "42 months" (3.5 yrs, the second half of the 7-yr trib)
--the "IN HIS TIME" of the man of sin (7 yrs; the "for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]" of Dan9:27a[26b]; the "whose coming" of 2Th2:9a; the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect of the DOTL Dan7:7; the "be revealed" of the man of sin, at the START of the 7-yr trib [i.e. SEAL #1])
--the "until the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled" (referring to Gentile domination over Israel, which "TIMES of the Gentiles" started in 605bc and will conclude [with and] at the END of the future 7-yr trib, at the time of His Second Coming to the earth)--This does NOT refer to "the Church age" (and is entirely distinct from "the FULNESS of the Gentiles be come in [G1525]")
--"thou [Daniel] shall rest [in death] and STAND IN THY LOT [be resurrected to stand again on the earth] AT THE END OF THE DAYS [at the end of the days referred to in that context, that is, at the END of the trib (for OT saints)]"
--the "DARK" portion of the Day of the Lord (7 years; Amos 5:18,20; 1Th5; etc)
--"[the One delivering us out-from] the WRATH COMING" ("not appointed us to wrath")
--the 70th Week of Daniel (7 yrs, yet future; "Seventy Weeks are DETERMINED UPON THY [Daniel's] people, AND UPON THY [Daniel's] holy city..." [69 of those Weeks concluded on Palm Sunday, Luke 19:42-44 / Zech9:9, etc])
--the 7 yrs during which "the invitation" TO the "wedding FEAST/SUPPER [earthly MK]" goes out (Rev19:9 [wholly distinct from Rev19:7]; Matt22:9-14nasb; Matt24:14/26:13; [results shown in Rev7:9,14 and Matt25:31-46, etc])
--the Olivet Discourse describing it [except for Lk21:12-24a about the events of 70ad]
--"...to shew unto His servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (7-yrs' worth; the "future" aspects of The Revelation [1:1/19:c/4:1], chpts 6-19 describing the 7 years [yet 'future' and 'future' to our Rapture], with the end of chpts 6-19, chpt 19, describing His 2nd Coming to the earth)
--when Jesus "STANDS TO JUDGE" (Rev4-5, 5:6; Lam2:1-7, esp vv3-4; Isa3:13); which the wording in 5:4 "WAS FOUND" shows that a "searching judgment" has already taken place (JUST LIKE this word is used in the latter chpts of Acts, when Paul was brought before their human/earthly "BEMA" [the courts, so to speak])
--[more...; these were just the ones that came immediately to mind]
Any questions?
[end quoting that old post]
____________
So, yeah... "PRE-[any and all of THAT ^ ]"
(to be clear, I believe we "RETURN" WITH HIM, FOR the earthly MK or at least its inauguration/"wedding FEAST/SUPPER" on the earth)
Well, let me put it like this... I am "[Rapture is] PRE-each-of-the-following]
[quoting old post]
When I talk about "the Tribulation," I could be referring to any of the following, which take place [at some point or throughout/] during those 7 years leading up to Christ's Second Coming to the earth (FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" there):
--The Day of the Lord (which includes: the 7-yr trib unfolding upon the earth, His 2nd Coming to the earth, AND the earthly MK)
--the time of Jacob's Trouble
--"the GREAT tribulation" (this is the 2nd half of the 7 yrs; Rev7:14, Matt24:21, Joel 2:31 "before the GREAT [i.e. before the 2nd half]" [6th SEAL happens])
--"the end [singular] of the age [singular]" (wholly distinct from "this present age/this present evil age [singular]")
--"the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" (first portion of trib, equivalent to the SEALS)
--the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular; 1Th5:2-3]" (i.e. the ARRIVAL of the Day of the Lord time-period/trib)
--the "time, times, half a time" (3.5 yrs, the second half of the 7-yr trib)
--the "42 months" (3.5 yrs, the second half of the 7-yr trib)
--the "IN HIS TIME" of the man of sin (7 yrs; the "for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]" of Dan9:27a[26b]; the "whose coming" of 2Th2:9a; the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect of the DOTL Dan7:7; the "be revealed" of the man of sin, at the START of the 7-yr trib [i.e. SEAL #1])
--the "until the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled" (referring to Gentile domination over Israel, which "TIMES of the Gentiles" started in 605bc and will conclude [with and] at the END of the future 7-yr trib, at the time of His Second Coming to the earth)--This does NOT refer to "the Church age" (and is entirely distinct from "the FULNESS of the Gentiles be come in [G1525]")
--"thou [Daniel] shall rest [in death] and STAND IN THY LOT [be resurrected to stand again on the earth] AT THE END OF THE DAYS [at the end of the days referred to in that context, that is, at the END of the trib (for OT saints)]"
--the "DARK" portion of the Day of the Lord (7 years; Amos 5:18,20; 1Th5; etc)
--"[the One delivering us out-from] the WRATH COMING" ("not appointed us to wrath")
--the 70th Week of Daniel (7 yrs, yet future; "Seventy Weeks are DETERMINED UPON THY [Daniel's] people, AND UPON THY [Daniel's] holy city..." [69 of those Weeks concluded on Palm Sunday, Luke 19:42-44 / Zech9:9, etc])
--the 7 yrs during which "the invitation" TO the "wedding FEAST/SUPPER [earthly MK]" goes out (Rev19:9 [wholly distinct from Rev19:7]; Matt22:9-14nasb; Matt24:14/26:13; [results shown in Rev7:9,14 and Matt25:31-46, etc])
--the Olivet Discourse describing it [except for Lk21:12-24a about the events of 70ad]
--"...to shew unto His servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (7-yrs' worth; the "future" aspects of The Revelation [1:1/19:c/4:1], chpts 6-19 describing the 7 years [yet 'future' and 'future' to our Rapture], with the end of chpts 6-19, chpt 19, describing His 2nd Coming to the earth)
--when Jesus "STANDS TO JUDGE" (Rev4-5, 5:6; Lam2:1-7, esp vv3-4; Isa3:13); which the wording in 5:4 "WAS FOUND" shows that a "searching judgment" has already taken place (JUST LIKE this word is used in the latter chpts of Acts, when Paul was brought before their human/earthly "BEMA" [the courts, so to speak])
--[more...; these were just the ones that came immediately to mind]
Any questions?
[end quoting that old post]
____________
So, yeah... "PRE-[any and all of THAT ^ ]" (to be clear, I believe we "RETURN" WITH HIM, FOR the earthly MK or at least its inauguration/"wedding FEAST/SUPPER" on the earth)
[quoting old post]
When I talk about "the Tribulation," I could be referring to any of the following, which take place [at some point or throughout/] during those 7 years leading up to Christ's Second Coming to the earth (FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" there):
--The Day of the Lord (which includes: the 7-yr trib unfolding upon the earth, His 2nd Coming to the earth, AND the earthly MK)
--the time of Jacob's Trouble
--"the GREAT tribulation" (this is the 2nd half of the 7 yrs; Rev7:14, Matt24:21, Joel 2:31 "before the GREAT [i.e. before the 2nd half]" [6th SEAL happens])
--"the end [singular] of the age [singular]" (wholly distinct from "this present age/this present evil age [singular]")
--"the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" (first portion of trib, equivalent to the SEALS)
--the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular; 1Th5:2-3]" (i.e. the ARRIVAL of the Day of the Lord time-period/trib)
--the "time, times, half a time" (3.5 yrs, the second half of the 7-yr trib)
--the "42 months" (3.5 yrs, the second half of the 7-yr trib)
--the "IN HIS TIME" of the man of sin (7 yrs; the "for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]" of Dan9:27a[26b]; the "whose coming" of 2Th2:9a; the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect of the DOTL Dan7:7; the "be revealed" of the man of sin, at the START of the 7-yr trib [i.e. SEAL #1])
--the "until the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled" (referring to Gentile domination over Israel, which "TIMES of the Gentiles" started in 605bc and will conclude [with and] at the END of the future 7-yr trib, at the time of His Second Coming to the earth)--This does NOT refer to "the Church age" (and is entirely distinct from "the FULNESS of the Gentiles be come in [G1525]")
--"thou [Daniel] shall rest [in death] and STAND IN THY LOT [be resurrected to stand again on the earth] AT THE END OF THE DAYS [at the end of the days referred to in that context, that is, at the END of the trib (for OT saints)]"
--the "DARK" portion of the Day of the Lord (7 years; Amos 5:18,20; 1Th5; etc)
--"[the One delivering us out-from] the WRATH COMING" ("not appointed us to wrath")
--the 70th Week of Daniel (7 yrs, yet future; "Seventy Weeks are DETERMINED UPON THY [Daniel's] people, AND UPON THY [Daniel's] holy city..." [69 of those Weeks concluded on Palm Sunday, Luke 19:42-44 / Zech9:9, etc])
--the 7 yrs during which "the invitation" TO the "wedding FEAST/SUPPER [earthly MK]" goes out (Rev19:9 [wholly distinct from Rev19:7]; Matt22:9-14nasb; Matt24:14/26:13; [results shown in Rev7:9,14 and Matt25:31-46, etc])
--the Olivet Discourse describing it [except for Lk21:12-24a about the events of 70ad]
--"...to shew unto His servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (7-yrs' worth; the "future" aspects of The Revelation [1:1/19:c/4:1], chpts 6-19 describing the 7 years [yet 'future' and 'future' to our Rapture], with the end of chpts 6-19, chpt 19, describing His 2nd Coming to the earth)
--when Jesus "STANDS TO JUDGE" (Rev4-5, 5:6; Lam2:1-7, esp vv3-4; Isa3:13); which the wording in 5:4 "WAS FOUND" shows that a "searching judgment" has already taken place (JUST LIKE this word is used in the latter chpts of Acts, when Paul was brought before their human/earthly "BEMA" [the courts, so to speak])
--[more...; these were just the ones that came immediately to mind]
Any questions?
[end quoting that old post]
____________
So, yeah... "PRE-[any and all of THAT ^ ]"
(to be clear, I believe we "RETURN" WITH HIM, FOR the earthly MK or at least its inauguration/"wedding FEAST/SUPPER" on the earth)
I already answered that upthread, see that post again.
https://christianchat.com/threads/t...lessed-hope-of-the-saints.195611/post-4448567
[...AND in Post #400]
It is the EARTHLY "TIME-PERIOD" that ARRIVES as "a thief IN THE NIGHT" (*we*/the Church WHICH IS HS BODY" do not step one foot into THAT "TIME-PERIOD" ["DARK/DARKNESS/IN THE NIGHT"], because our SNATCH ["IN THE AIR"] immediately PRECEDES its ARRIVAL [at SEAL #1])
https://christianchat.com/threads/t...lessed-hope-of-the-saints.195611/post-4448567
[...AND in Post #400]
It is the EARTHLY "TIME-PERIOD" that ARRIVES as "a thief IN THE NIGHT" (*we*/the Church WHICH IS HS BODY" do not step one foot into THAT "TIME-PERIOD" ["DARK/DARKNESS/IN THE NIGHT"], because our SNATCH ["IN THE AIR"] immediately PRECEDES its ARRIVAL [at SEAL #1])
NO.
Let me put it like this (hopefully you can see what I'm saying):
--"our Rapture" (SNATCH/harpazo) is VERTICAL (*ARROW UP*)
--"the Day of the Lord" EARTHLY *TIME-PERIOD* (which is what *ARRIVES* like a thief IN THE NIGHT) is
HORIZONTAL (*ARROW HORIZONTAL TO THE RIGHT, l----->* [entirely "earthly-located" and not a "24-hr day"])
[the ONE ITEM immediately PRECEDES the OTHER ITEM... they are DISTINCT ITEMS!]
Let me put it like this (hopefully you can see what I'm saying):
--"our Rapture" (SNATCH/harpazo) is VERTICAL (*ARROW UP*)
--"the Day of the Lord" EARTHLY *TIME-PERIOD* (which is what *ARRIVES* like a thief IN THE NIGHT) is
HORIZONTAL (*ARROW HORIZONTAL TO THE RIGHT, l----->* [entirely "earthly-located" and not a "24-hr day"])
[the ONE ITEM immediately PRECEDES the OTHER ITEM... they are DISTINCT ITEMS!]
G726 - harpagēsometha in 1Th4:17 [harpazo (root)]
"catch, seize, take by force.
"From a derivative of haireomai [G138]; to seize (in various applications) -- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force)."
haireomai [G138] used in 2Th2:13 (where some versions have it as) "hath chosen [haireomai - G138] you FIRSTFRUIT" (I tend to think this is accurate)
2 Thessalonians 2:13 V-AIM-3S [G138 haireomai / haireó (akin to "*airo - G142")]
GRK: Κυρίου ὅτι εἵλατο ὑμᾶς ὁ
NAS: God has chosen you from the beginning
KJV: from the beginning chosen you to
INT: [the] Lord that chose you
"138 hairéomai (a primitive verb, always in the Greek middle voice) – properly, lay hold of by a personal choice.
"[The Greek middle voice emphasizes the self-interest of the one preferring (deciding) to grasp or take.]"
[*G142 - airo - Definition: to raise, take up, lift; Usage: I raise, lift up, take away, remove ]
____________
Rapture [IN THE AIR] is DISTINCT FROM the *ARRIVAL* of the earthly DOTL time-period (with its "JUDGMENTs" unfolding upon the earth over the course of SOME TIME [the 7 yrs]); the one immediately precedes the other!
2Th2:3 "that day [the DOTL time-period referenced in the immediately preceding verse, v.2!] will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE [Rapture (v.1!)] *FIRST* and [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed..."
"catch, seize, take by force.
"From a derivative of haireomai [G138]; to seize (in various applications) -- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force)."
haireomai [G138] used in 2Th2:13 (where some versions have it as) "hath chosen [haireomai - G138] you FIRSTFRUIT" (I tend to think this is accurate)
2 Thessalonians 2:13 V-AIM-3S [G138 haireomai / haireó (akin to "*airo - G142")]
GRK: Κυρίου ὅτι εἵλατο ὑμᾶς ὁ
NAS: God has chosen you from the beginning
KJV: from the beginning chosen you to
INT: [the] Lord that chose you
"138 hairéomai (a primitive verb, always in the Greek middle voice) – properly, lay hold of by a personal choice.
"[The Greek middle voice emphasizes the self-interest of the one preferring (deciding) to grasp or take.]"
[*G142 - airo - Definition: to raise, take up, lift; Usage: I raise, lift up, take away, remove ]
____________
Rapture [IN THE AIR] is DISTINCT FROM the *ARRIVAL* of the earthly DOTL time-period (with its "JUDGMENTs" unfolding upon the earth over the course of SOME TIME [the 7 yrs]); the one immediately precedes the other!
2Th2:3 "that day [the DOTL time-period referenced in the immediately preceding verse, v.2!] will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE [Rapture (v.1!)] *FIRST* and [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed..."