The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints

echoChrist · Dec 24, 2020

(1 Thessalonians 5:4) But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a theif.- So my first question to pre- trib view would be if true beleivers were already raptured how could we be there that same day sudden destruction comes upon the wicked. We are told to watch and be sober Jesus is given you all the signs. Also in (Revelation 16:15) Behold, I come as a theif. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.- Now my father is telling me this after sixth vial is poured out why would he be warning me if I’m already raptured. And then people will say oh those were the ones that got saved during tribulation I think all pre- trib views are based on a lot of assumptions so I have a hard time believing. Also my Lord is like a refiners fire only what is pure is left by the brightness of his coming all impurities ( wicked) get burned up. I know there’s a lot more to this like 24 elders who are they well the Bible tells us 12 are Jesus’s disciples. Anyway I want there to be pre trib rapture I just don’t think scripture supports it.

Ahwatukee · Dec 24, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

Yes, we agree on this:

Following the gathering of the church, the world enters right into the period of God's wrath, which will take place like a woman having birth pains. They start off slowly and apart, getting closer and more intense leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

Just curious, where did you get the information that the rapture takes place at sunset? From what I read, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" is how quickly our change from mortal to immortal takes place which is derived from the word 'atomos' which is defined as a moment of time that is too short to divide.

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant (atomos), in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

So, it is not 'when' it happens, but how quickly the change will take place.

I believe that the gathering of the church and the DOTL go hand in hand, in that, once the gathering takes place, it ushers in the DOTL.

Absolutely · Dec 24, 2020

echoChrist said:

test fit the different positions and ask yourself why there is no postrib rapture verses?

Ask yourself why the postrib rapture position has no info on the bride/groom component(which is the basis and heart of the rapture)

ask yourself if that dynamic is even possible (the omission of Gods purpose for the rapture)

echoChrist · Dec 24, 2020

Absolutely said:

Revelation is not in chronological order.

Ahwatukee · Dec 24, 2020

echoChrist said:

The teaching of the pre-wrath rapture is that, God's wrath begins after the opening of the 6th seal, i.e. the first six seals are not apart of God's wrath, which I do not agree with. I believe that all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and that because it is the Lamb/Jesus who is opening the seals and is therefore responsible for the resulting destruction and fatalities. That said, we should not divide the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as they all represent God's wrath. The reason for this belief, is because of the statement at the end of the sixth seal which says "For the great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it?" So, they look at God's wrath as taking place after the announcement. However, the words 'has come' is in the 'aorist, indicative, active' which means that the entire wrath of God is in view, which would include the seals that will have already taken place. People do this so that they can put the church in the time of the seals. However, as I said, the Lamb is the One who is opening the seals which makes them apart of God's wrath.

So my belief is that, the gathering of the church will take place before the first seal is opened, which initiates God's time of wrath. That said, God's wrath and the tribulation period are just two different ways of describing the same period.

Church gathered ------- |<----------------------------------G-O-D'S---W-R-A-T-H----------------------------->|
-------------------------|<-------------------S-E-A-L-S / T-R-U-M-P-E-T-S / B-O-W-L-S----------------->|
-------------------------|<---------------------------S-E-V-E-N---Y-E-A-R-S---------------------------->|

echoChrist · Dec 24, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

The teaching of the pre-wrath rapture is that, God's wrath begins after the opening of the 6th seal, i.e. the first six seals are not apart of God's wrath, which I do not agree with. I believe that all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and that because it is the Lamb/Jesus who is opening the seals and is therefore responsible for the resulting destruction and fatalities. That said, we should not divide the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as they all represent God's wrath. The reason for this belief, is because of the statement at the end of the sixth seal which says "For the great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it?" So, they look at God's wrath as taking place after the announcement. However, the words 'has come' is in the 'aorist, indicative, active' which means that the entire wrath of God is in view, which would include the seals that will have already taken place. People do this so that they can put the church in the time of the seals. However, as I said, the Lamb is the One who is opening the seals which makes them apart of God's wrath.

So my belief is that, the gathering of the church will take place before the first seal is opened, which initiates God's time of wrath. That said, God's wrath and the tribulation period are just two different ways of describing the same period.

Church gathered ------- |<----------------------------------G-O-D'S---W-R-A-T-H----------------------------->|
-------------------------|<-------------------S-E-A-L-S / T-R-U-M-P-E-T-S / B-O-W-L-S----------------->|
-------------------------|<---------------------------S-E-V-E-N---Y-E-A-R-S---------------------------->|

So when man of sin the lawless one arrives on scene we will be long gone is that your view?

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 24, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

Yep.

I'm saying it refers to both (how fast it occurs, and [meaning also] "the precise moment ONE DAY turns into the NEXT, when the sun is eight-degrees below the horizon, at sundown" (i.e. AT "DARK" / 'DARKNESS" / "IN THE NIGHT" -- the DOTL's *ARRIVAL* point in time! We go UP, "and then" the DOTL is thereafter immediately in existence upon the earth [with its "man of sin" IN HIS TIME]); I read [long ago] the meaning of this "idiom" (I do not recall where).

This just means that WE (the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY) do not take ONE STEP *INSIDE* the DOTL time-period of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth ("THE Departure *FIRST*" is our EXIT *before* that time-period commences to unfold with the FIRST SEAL [FIRST SEAL=DOTL's ARRIVAL! / FIRST SEAL="man of sin BE REVEALED" / "FIRST SEAL=INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1TH5:2-3 / Matt24:4/Mk13:5]"... at the START of the trib yrs!! YES!!])

TODAY is the "day" of salvation (not a mere "singular 24-hr day") as well as "the DOTL [time-period]," neither of which are "a singular 24-hr day".

BEFORE "the DOTL" ('day' OF THE LORD [not "24-hrs"]) can be present to unfold upon the earth, ONE THING must take place *FIRST* ("our Rapture"/"THE Departure *FIRST*"/"our episynagoges UNTO HIM"/"the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR"/"the One delivering US out-from THE WRATH COMING") and thereafter the "IN THE NIGHT/DARK/DARKNESS" time-period unfolds upon the earth with its "man of sin" [Dan7:7, Gen46:2, Amos 5:18,20, etc etc]--thus, one day turning into the next.

They "go hand in hand" (yet are distinct items--this is why ppl MISTAKENLY believe "the DOTL" *MEANS* "Rapture" [it does not!]) in the sense that ONE immediately precedes the other, or (said more another way) the event of our Rapture [IN THE AIR] results in the presence of the DOTL earthly-time-period commencing to unfold upon the earth.

So, yeah, we're pretty much saying the same thing.

Ahwatukee · Dec 24, 2020

echoChrist said:

We are not on the earth when the sudden destruction takes place, but will be caught up prior to when that event begins, just as Paul previously described it the previous chapter in I Thess.4:16-18. Because we are not in darkness, that day of beginning God's sudden destruction will not overtake us because we won't be here!

[/quote]

They are not assumptions, but conclusions based on all scripture. Also, God leaves clues throughout His word.

It is first important to understand that there will be believers on the earth during that time who are not the church. We are introduced to them in Rev.7:9-17 as that group which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language which makes them all Gentiles. In further support of this, you will never see the word 'ekklesia/church used during the narrative of God's wrath. Yet, it is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then disappears. There will also be other groups on the earth along with the great tribulation saints such as the 144,000 and the unbelieving nation of Israel, none of which are the church.

The fact that the elder asks John who this group is and that he doesn't know who they are, especially after he just wrote letters to the seven churches, demonstrates that this is another group who become believers after the church has been gathered and during the tribulation period.

Jesus took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer, because we have been reconciled to God. Therefore, this should be at the top of the list when considering the timing of the churches gathering. It is a legal precedent, i.e. the requirement of God's wrath has already been satisfied by Jesus and therefore it is not required of believers. That said, if the church were to go through God's wrath, the wrath that Jesus suffered would have been in vain.

The other problem is that, God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since God's wrath will be poured out upon the whole world, then the church cannot be here.

echoChrist · Dec 24, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

They are not assumptions, but conclusions based on all scripture. Also, God leaves clues throughout His word.

It is first important to understand that there will be believers on the earth during that time who are not the church. We are introduced to them in Rev.7:9-17 as that group which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language which makes them all Gentiles. In further support of this, you will never see the word 'ekklesia/church used during the narrative of God's wrath. Yet, it is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then disappears. There will also be other groups on the earth along with the great tribulation saints such as the 144,000 and the unbelieving nation of Israel, none of which are the church.

The fact that the elder asks John who this group is and that he doesn't know who they are, especially after he just wrote letters to the seven churches, demonstrates that this is another group who become believers after the church has been gathered and during the tribulation period.

Jesus took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer, because we have been reconciled to God. Therefore, this should be at the top of the list when considering the timing of the churches gathering. It is a legal precedent, i.e. the requirement of God's wrath has already been satisfied by Jesus and therefore it is not required of believers. That said, if the church were to go through God's wrath, the wrath that Jesus suffered would have been in vain.

The other problem is that, God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since God's wrath will be poured out upon the whole world, then the church cannot be here.[/QUOTE]But why does God warn after sixth vial is poured out Behold I come like a thief Blessed are those who watch if we’re not here.

Ahwatukee · Dec 24, 2020

echoChrist said:

Yes, that is correct! The church will have already been gathered. Remember, the scripture says that the proof that the Day of the Lord has come, will be the apostasy and the man of lawlessness being revealed.

As I described it in another post, Paul begins with "concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him." The reason why he says this, is because Paul had taught them that the dead would rise first and then immediately after that, those still alive would be changed and caught up together with them. So the reason for their letter to Paul, was because there were false teachers in Thessalonica teaching that the Day of the Lord had already come. So based on what Paul had taught them, their concern was why they were still on the earth, why they hadn't been caught up, if in fact the Day of the Lord had already come.

It is paramount in understanding the different between "the appearing of the Lord and our being gathered to Him vs. The Day of the Lord. Though they will take place in close proximity, one is a blessed event of the church being gathered and the other is the wrath of God, which ensues after the church has been gathered. Always keep in mind the teaching that the church has been reconciled to God and therefore cannot be on the earth during the time when God's wrath is being poured out.

And just in case anyone is going to use the apologetic stating that the apostles and first century church were not spared persecution and death, that is correct! However, what they suffered was not God's wrath. God's coming wrath will be an unprecedented, being the worst time in the history of the world from the beginning, till now and never to be equaled again.

echoChrist · Dec 24, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

Yes, that is correct! The church will have already been gathered. Remember, the scripture says that the proof that the Day of the Lord has come, will be the apostasy and the man of lawlessness being revealed.

As I described it in another post, Paul begins with "concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him." The reason why he says this, is because Paul had taught them that the dead would rise first and then immediately after that, those still alive would be changed and caught up together with them. So the reason for their letter to Paul, was because there were false teachers in Thessalonica teaching that the Day of the Lord had already come. So based on what Paul had taught them, their concern was why they were still on the earth, why they hadn't been caught up, if in fact the Day of the Lord had already come.

It is paramount in understanding the different between "the appearing of the Lord and our being gathered to Him vs. The Day of the Lord. Though they will take place in close proximity, one is a blessed event of the church being gathered and the other is the wrath of God, which ensues after the church has been gathered. Always keep in mind the teaching that the church has been reconciled to God and therefore cannot be on the earth during the time when God's wrath is being poured out.

And just in case anyone is going to use the apologetic stating that the apostles and first century church were not spared persecution and death, that is correct! However, what they suffered was not God's wrath. God's coming wrath will be an unprecedented, being the worst time in the history of the world from the beginning, till now and never to be equaled again.

But didn’t God protect his own when the plagues fell on Egypt.

Ahwatukee · Dec 24, 2020

echoChrist said:

First of all, be carful to not pigeonhole sayings or words. Many do this with the word trumpet and cloud, as well as other words.

If I was on the earth during the time of God's wrath, I could follow each event like a road map. I would just observe the fulfillment of the chronological order of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. I would know that once the seventh bowl has been poured out, that the Lord's return to the earth to end the age would be happening at any moment. Yet, I would still not know the exact day or hour.

I have also considered the possibility that Rev.16:15 is an interjection of warning to believers who are reading these events, to keep themselves so that they don't enter into that time period. As I said before, it is important to keep in mind that believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. So, take into consideration all of the other scripture when forming your conclusion. For example, since Jesus already satisfied God's wrath on behalf of every believer, then can Rev.16:15 be speaking to church, which would put us through the entire wrath of God? This is how we should be forming our conclusions.

Since God's wrath must take place prior to and leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, then believers cannot cross that line.

Ahwatukee · Dec 24, 2020

echoChrist said:

Yes, He did. He also protected Noah and his family in the ark. Likewise, Lot was able to flee to Zoar, a small city, which for Lot's sake He did not destroy. However, because the wrath of God will come upon the whole entire world, there will be no ark to get on and no small city to flee to. Instead, the Lord's promise to come and get us to take us back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us, will take place. I Thess.4:13-18 is a detailed account of John 14:1-3.

In addition I would add that, God could not have gathered Noah and his family because he needed them to remain and repopulate the earth. Likewise, if God had removed Israel, there would be no Israel on the earth today to fulfill God's future prophesies regarding them.

The long prophesied Day of the Lord is quickly coming! But because we (the church) are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness, i.e. that day will not take us by surprise because we will be removed before that time of darkness begins.

echoChrist · Dec 24, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

I’m sorry I just have a lot of questions about this subject I don’t mean to agitate you another thing I think is interesting (Matthew 24:29-31) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now aren’t we the elect if you can prove this is not us I will accept your view.

echoChrist · Dec 24, 2020

echoChrist said:

(2 Thessalonians 1:4-5) 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Ahwatukee · Dec 24, 2020

echoChrist said:

Not a problem and I am not agitated, just trying to share with you all that I have gone over and concluded for the last 45 years.

As I have continued to make known, it is important to discern that there is a difference between these two events. That said, the event of the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, is at the crux of the problem. There are those who interpret these two events as taking place at the same time, i.e. as the Lord returns to the earth He then gathers His church. As I have continued to make know, the problem with this is God's wrath which takes place prior to and leads up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. If the gathering of the church were to take place when the Lord returns to the earth, it would put the church through the entire wrath of God. The church would be going through the same punishment as those who have rejected Christ and are willfully living according to the sinful nature.

Regarding the church being on the earth during the time of God's wrath, one would have to explain how it is that the bride/church is already seen in heaven, receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. And also, the fact that scripture has the church/bride following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses. In order to follow the Lord out of heaven, we would already have to be in heaven. Then there is the following scripture:

"They (beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb (as He is coming to the earth), but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

That the Lord's 'called, chosen and faithful followers' will be with Him as He is descending to the earth, also shows that the church who will have been previously caught up, is already in heaven.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 24, 2020

echoChrist said:

So, the word for "destruction" here is:

3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

Notice a cpl things:

--1Tim6:9 uses both THIS ^ word (G3639) sometimes translated "ruin" (ylt, etc), AND another word (G684 [see below])

--the "sudden destruction [G3639]" COMES UPON them as the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 (Matt24:4/Mk13:5)]" like a woman in labor... but it is not merely "ONE [birth PANG-SINGULAR] and DONE" when it comes to "birth PANGS [Jesus spoke of]"... MANY MORE *follow on* from that INITIAL one! The DOTL's *ARRIVAL* is merely the INITIAL ONE! (they CONTINUE to unfold from there!)

--Paul (in2Th1&2) is CONTRASTING the TWO OPPOSITE "responses [/'beliefs']" ppl will be coming to IN "the DOTL/IN THAT DAY" (SAME time-period, FOLLOWING "our Rapture"); some will come to faith, whereas others will "believe THE LIE/the FALSE/the pseudei" (so it is NOT that 100% of the ppl who will be existing on the earth FOLLOWING "our Rapture" will be destroyed and then [eventually] suffer ETERNAL destruction away from the presence of the Lord... SOME will be coming to faith IN/DURING/WITHIN that time-period;

...the "[and] THEY shall NOT *ESCAPE [/FLEE OUT OF; ekpheugo]* is in contrast to OTHERS who will ALSO find themselves IN the trib, who will HEED the words in Lk21:36 "[...] in order that they may have strength TO FLEE OUT OF [actively; ekpheugo] each and every thing coming on the earth [IN the trib yrs] and to stand before the Son of man" [His "Second Coming TO THE EARTH" designation])

--the OTHER word in 1Tim6:9 (DISTINCT from the G3639 word [at top]) is...

Cognate: 684 apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).
684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).

[IOW, I don't think either word implies "sudden DEATH"... unless the context speaks also of "ETERNAL destruction [G3639] away from the presence of the Lord," which an earlier context is talking about their END (i.e. a future tense reality, to the time-period being addressed)

See again my posts on the TWO GREEK WORDS found in BOTH 1Th5 verse 6 AND verse 10 ("watch" and "sleep"... but which latter word is DISTINCT FROM the "sleep" Grk word in chpt 4, vv.13,15,16 or thereabouts)

Right. (in the bold)

The 24 elders were already saying "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of every..." way back in Rev5:9, UP IN Heaven *BEFORE* the FIRST SEAL is opened to unfold upon the earth... LONG BEFORE the "Armageddon" time-slot of Rev16:14-16 (re: "Behold, I come AS A THIEF. [period]" [note: NOT "IN THE NIGHT"... those words are NOT added, when speaking of JESUS HIMSELF and HIS "ARRIVAL / "RETURN" to the earth Rev19/16:14-16)

So WHY are the 24 elders SAYING THIS?

And WHERE did they get those "CROWNS/stephanous"? (Paul had said "IN THAT DAY" [not the day of his DEATH

]--context, "the DoChr!" which is when we are UP THERE *WITH HIM* [note: 2Th2:2 should read "DOTL"--the earthly time-period of JUDGEMENTs followed by BLESSINGs])

And WHY are they sitting on "THRONES"??

I believe it DOES... in SO MANY WAYS (it's hard to cover them all!

)

Ahwatukee · Dec 24, 2020

echoChrist said:

Again, those persecutions and tribulations mentioned above, were not the result of God's wrath! You need to stop confusing the two! The persecutions and tribulations that Paul is speaking of was the result of their faith in Christ, which come at the hands of men and the power darkness. Where in opposition, God's wrath will be coming directly from Him, not because of faith, but because of rejecting His Son and those who are willfully continuing to live according to the sinful nature. Understand then, that there is a big difference between the trials and persecutions that the Lord said we would suffer because of our faith vs. God's coming wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer.

echoChrist · Dec 24, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

Again, those persecutions and tribulations mentioned above, were not the result of God's wrath! You need to stop confusing the two! The persecutions and tribulations that Paul is speaking of was the result of their faith in Christ, which come at the hands of men and the power darkness. Where in opposition, God's wrath will be coming directly from Him, not because of faith, but because of rejecting His Son and those who are willfully continuing to live according to the sinful nature. Understand then, that there is a big difference between the trials and persecutions that the Lord said we would suffer because of our faith vs. God's coming wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer.

Hold on I’m going to make one more point and it’s a good one.

Ahwatukee · Dec 24, 2020

echoChrist said:

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints

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