The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[Everlasting-Grace]

Since you reject the language of Scripture re: being saved,

Actually this would be you.

and since you still can not come to the truth about how one is justified forever. we are unable to move on. If we can not get the most important aspect of a persons eternaity correct. nothign else matters

what's conditional about sanctification?



How does He do this and why is it conditional since you call it conditional sanctification?

Again, lets stick to the topic.

How is one eternally saved, what is conditional about it?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You must have returned. Does this mean that all do the same, or it doesn't matter as @Kroogz seemed to suggest? You suggest the same if I'm not mistaken.

I never stopped believing in the eternal state.

I never turned to unbelief in the fact that I was lost, and unable to save myself. I was unworthy of Gods love, and unworthy of his mercy. And I never stopped believing in the fact he saved me, and gave me eternal life.

I lost faith in the church.

But hey, again, I understand you can not fathom this idea. maybe you have never experienced what I did 40 years ago?

 

[mailmandan]

To what? Trust God and look. then they were healed completely?

lol. Here is the truth my friend.

people stop believing in a person when they person continuously lets them down. we do not just trust someone then decide to not trust them

But hey. I don't know. maybe God is not what you think he is so you think you may one day lose faith in his provision of eternity based on his son?

I don't know. But I know even in my darkest hour as a prodigal son, I never stopped thinking that God was not trustworthy in keeping his promise of eternal life.

There are folks who profess to have faith in Jesus, yet their faith was never firmly rooted and established from the start. Some people may actually start out believing or having faith in Jesus (to some extent) just like someone may start out believing or having faith in a politician (based on their own preconceived ideas and expectations) then later find out that their preconceived ideas do not line up with their original expectations, just like these disciples in John 6 who initially set out to follow Christ, but had a difficult time accepting the words of Jesus in regards to eating His flesh and drinking His blood, then turned and walked with Him no more. (John 6:50-66)

In John 6:64, Jesus clearly stated - Yet there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. There is no fooling Jesus who infallibly knows the hearts of men. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers mixed together throughout the Bible, throughout various churches and throughout various Christian forum sites. Hence, the warnings in scripture about continuing in faith.

 

[studier]

Actually this would be you.

Well, I accept this:

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out (accomplish) your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (Phil. 2:12-13 NKJ)

And have no need to change it to this:

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation conditional sanctification with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (Phil. 2:12-13 NKJ)

But this is a digression. As is your pretense that I've not answered your questions about salvation by grace through faith.

 

[Jimbone]

Oh, there very much is indeed a problem for saying that. A big problem. It actually proves OSAS (the impossibility of apostasy) to be totally false, past, present and future. And gives it absolutely no security. The only reason people who believe in OSAS say “never truly saved”…is because they have to say that…when they discover someone who they knew to be a Christian departed from the faith…instead of believing the truth..they will simply say “well, he/she was just never saved to begin with.”

If they got saved biblically, they were saved, yet when they depart, they were never saved…that makes no sense. The sad reality in OSAS is the one who was said to be saved can depart from the faith and prove he/she was never saved in the first place. To be consistent, no one who believes in OSAS would say anyone is saved.

No, your misunderstanding it is for a very simple reason and is becoming more evident with each passing day, the things of the Spirit are foolishness to those who are perishing. You just don't understand the things of the Spirit because you are still blind to them, at least that is what you and the rest of the CDSC here come off as being to me. You don't seem to understand the spiritual event that being born again is, you just seem to have no clue what we mean by this. We can't be un-born again any more than we can be unborn. The fact this eludes you and the crew so completely is not a good sign at all, but I'm sure you have your obedience to rely on, a works based belief system.

 

[PennEd]

Well, I accept this:

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out (accomplish) your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (Phil. 2:12-13 NKJ)

You're right. There's no need to change this at all.

You work OUT your Salvation.
Which means you walk in the Spirit by reading and meditating on the Word. Keep assembling with the Brethren, do good works for Christ and His Kingdom by helping others in all sorts of ways, etc...
Just like you work OUT your physical body by doing exercises to keep fit. You don't work out your physical body to attain it.

It DOES NOT SAY or mean, work FOR your Salvation.

 

[studier]

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers mixed together throughout the Bible, throughout various churches and throughout various Christian forum sites. Hence, the warnings in scripture about continuing in faith.

Why the warnings about continuing in the faith? To be warned about others?

 

[studier]

I lost faith in the church.

Not uncommon.

 

[studier]

You're right. There's no need to change this at all.

You work OUT your Salvation.
Which means you walk in the Spirit by reading and meditating on the Word. Keep assembling with the Brethren, do good works for Christ and His Kingdom by helping others in all sorts of ways, etc...
Just like you work OUT your physical body by doing exercises to keep fit. You don't work out your physical body to attain it.

It DOES NOT SAY or mean, work FOR your Salvation.

Since it's a command, it also means to obey and do what it says. And everything you mentioned is an action by the Christian (and to go along with @JimiSurvivor, a continuous action). And the next verse explains the reason and what God is doing in the Christian who does what He commands.

And work out (or if you prefer, work OUT), as has been discussed, is not the only way, nor even a primary way to translate the word used. Nor is that word translated like this in its other uses in Scripture. But at least you and others are not removing the word "work" which at times is kind of surprising since work and salvation are so closely connected here. I guess this is why some feel the need to change the "salvation" language of Scripture to "conditional sanctification"

I agree it does not say work FOR. But there could be some semantics to discuss here as long as we remain in the realm that this is being commanded to Christians who are in the Salvation Plan and Process of God and not to unbelievers.

 

[mailmandan]

You're right. There's no need to change this at all.

You work OUT your Salvation.
Which means you walk in the Spirit by reading and meditating on the Word. Keep assembling with the Brethren, do good works for Christ and His Kingdom by helping others in all sorts of ways, etc...
Just like you work OUT your physical body by doing exercises to keep fit. You don't work out your physical body to attain it.

It DOES NOT SAY or mean, work FOR your Salvation.

Amen! Notice in Philippians 2:12 that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and NOT "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work out" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ.

This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer who has already been justified by faith. In verse 13, Paul goes on to say, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Ongoing or progressive sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (Romans 5:1) Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, ongoing sanctification is a process.

In regard to "fear and trembling," it pertains to a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and a righteous awe and respect or reverence for Him. (Proverbs 1:7; Psalm 2:11; Psalm 34:9; Isaiah 66:2) Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I basically saw God as a tyrant who couldn't wait to punish me every time I messed up and throw me into hell for not being "good enough." That is an unhealthy fear of bondage and insecurity which is not from above!

Paul uses the same phrase "fear and trembling" in 2 Corinthians 7:15 in which he refers to Titus as being encouraged by the reception of him by the Corinthians "with fear and trembling," that is, with humility and respect for his position as a minister of Jesus Christ. In 1 Corinthians 2:3, we see that Paul himself came to the Corinthian church in "weakness and fear, and with much trembling" in regard to the huge responsibility and critical importance of the work in which he was engaged.

 

[studier]

men! Notice in Philippians 2:12 that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and NOT "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work out" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification/"salvation", which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ.

I like your underlined definition.

I've added the word "salvation" since it's what Paul wrote under inspiration.

What happens when a body sits and does nothing?

What happens when land is not worked diligently?

Does "actively pursuing" include "to continually work"?

This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer who has already been justified by faith. In verse 13, Paul goes on to say, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Ongoing or progressive sanctification/"salvation" has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (Romans 5:1) Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, ongoing sanctification/"salvation" is a process.

My last question above herein answered.

I've added the word "salvation" since it's what Paul wrote under inspiration.

Having no bearing on justification is debated among Christians.

The hyperbole of 100% is typically used in an attempt to make those who believe a Christian can fall away seem extreme. Yet as I read the debate, I don't see those who think a Christian can fall away typically, if ever, disagree with this 100% statement.

In regard to "fear and trembling," it pertains to a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and a righteous awe and respect or reverence for Him. (Proverbs 1:7; Psalm 2:11; Psalm 34:9; Isaiah 66:2) Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I basically saw God as a tyrant who couldn't wait to punish me every time I messed up and throw me into hell for not being "good enough." That is an unhealthy fear of bondage and insecurity which is not from above!

Not unusual for converts from Rome from what I've seen. IMO good you departed.

Paul uses the same phrase "fear and trembling" in 2 Corinthians 7:15 in which he refers to Titus as being encouraged by the reception of him by the Corinthians "with fear and trembling," that is, with humility and respect for his position as a minister of Jesus Christ. In 1 Corinthians 2:3, we see that Paul himself came to the Corinthian church in "weakness and fear, and with much trembling" in regard to the huge responsibility and critical importance of the work in which he was engaged.

Nicely stated.

 

[PennEd]

Since it's a command, it also means to obey and do what it says. And everything you mentioned is an action by the Christian (and to go along with @JimiSurvivor, a continuous action). And the next verse explains the reason and what God is doing in the Christian who does what He commands.

Well of course we should be working for Christ!
How silly to suggest anyone thinks we shouldn't.

What's at issue is that the working, or NOT working, doesn't affect your Salvation in the slightest except to the extent you will be an ineffective child of God here on earth, that may not be used to bring others to Christ, and not receive ETERNAL rewards. We all tend to think that just getting there is the whole ballgame.

Your position and rewards in Heaven are going to be a very big, ETERNAL deal once we're there. Are we going to be among the least of those in the Kingdom? Or are we going to hear "well done My good and faithful servant'.

Paul certainly felt this way. He was very cognizant and concerned about himself, and other believers running the race in such a manner as to attain rewards. NOT SALVATION.
Thinking ANYTHING YOU DO helps Jesus in ANY way attain, OR maintain Salvation, cheapens His incredible Sacrifice for us.

 

[mailmandan]

Well of course we should be working for Christ!
How silly to suggest anyone thinks we shouldn't.

What's at issue is that the working, or NOT working, doesn't affect your Salvation in the slightest except to the extent you will be an ineffective child of God here on earth, that may not be used to bring others to Christ, and not receive ETERNAL rewards. We all tend to think that just getting there is the whole ballgame.

Your position and rewards in Heaven are going to be a very big, ETERNAL deal once we're there. Are we going to be among the least of those in the Kingdom? Or are we going to hear "well done My good and faithful servant'.

Paul certainly felt this way. He was very cognizant and concerned about himself, and other believers running the race in such a manner as to attain rewards. NOT SALVATION.
Thinking ANYTHING YOU DO helps Jesus in ANY way attain, OR maintain Salvation, cheapens His incredible Sacrifice for us.

There are 3 tenses to salvation that must not be confused. Otherwise the end result is salvation by works.

1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing or progressive sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

There are folks who profess to have faith in Jesus, yet their faith was never firmly rooted and established from the start. Some people may actually start out believing or having faith in Jesus (to some extent) just like someone may start out believing or having faith in a politician (based on their own preconceived ideas and expectations) then later find out that their preconceived ideas do not line up with their original expectations, just like these disciples in John 6 who initially set out to follow Christ, but had a difficult time accepting the words of Jesus in regards to eating His flesh and drinking His blood, then turned and walked with Him no more. (John 6:50-66)

In John 6:64, Jesus clearly stated - Yet there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. There is no fooling Jesus who infallibly knows the hearts of men. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers mixed together throughout the Bible, throughout various churches and throughout various Christian forum sites. Hence, the warnings in scripture about continuing in faith.

Its amazing, people claim they trust God. yet they do not even know who he is.

God knows everything we will ever do. he knew it before we were even born.

I may be able to fool a whole church of people. and many pastors.

But I will never be able to fool God

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Well, I accept this:

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out (accomplish) your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (Phil. 2:12-13 NKJ)

And have no need to change it to this:

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation conditional sanctification with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (Phil. 2:12-13 NKJ)

But this is a digression. As is your pretense that I've not answered your questions about salvation by grace through faith.

yes, we see you think you must merit salvation.

Again, I will not talk about conditional sanctification or Christian growth with you.

if you have the way we are justified eternally wrong. nothing else mattters

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

There are 3 tenses to salvation that must not be confused. Otherwise the end result is salvation by works.

1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing or progressive sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

Sadly,

some can't get out of their own way and just let God save them

 

[studier]

yes, we see you think you must merit salvation.

Repetitive misrepresentation of my views.

Again, I will not talk about conditional sanctification or Christian growth with you.

OK.

if you have the way we are justified eternally wrong. nothing else mattters

Understood.

Responses interlineated.

 

[studier]

There are 3 tenses to salvation that must not be confused. Otherwise the end result is salvation by works.

1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing or progressive sanctification/salvation)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

God's Salvation Plan and Process. Most of it anyway.

 

[studier]

Sadly,

some can't get out of their own way and just let God save them

What is that "conditional sanctification" explanation?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Responses interlineated.

aww poor guy.. Afraid to allow us to respond to your false comments?

You believe it, why can't you own it