The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”
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I understand the theological constructs language of Justification - Sanctification - Glorification and I understand the eternal security point of view even and including the "one and done" view of @Kroogz and I understand everything @mailmandan is saying.
I also understand Phil2:12-13 and the reason Paul uses "salvation" in the verse and why some feel the need to explain it away or use an obscure and secondary translation for katergazomai that @mailmandan applied a better definition to.
I also understand the loss of fellowship and rewards theory of interpretation of Free Grace Dispensationalism and your counter that Grace is not free. I know the Faith Alone mantra and the Faith is Never Alone counter.
I know that some dislike and reject the concepts of were saved - are being saved - will be saved, and immediately allege works salvation against those who speak of salvation like that or explain that salvation is obviously a process based upon such concepts derived from the Text.
I also have a reasonably solid suspicion you don't know Greek as well as you may have been trying to make it seem like you do earlier and that you have backed off completely from using it and from getting deeper into any Scriptures since I offered to work with you in looking at any.
Why do you (singular or plural as necessary for the mouse or mice in your pocket) call the Sanctification process "conditional"? Most I've read and heard along the way call it experiential or progressive rather than conditional. What are the conditions?
I also understand Phil2:12-13 and the reason Paul uses "salvation" in the verse and why some feel the need to explain it away or use an obscure and secondary translation for katergazomai that @mailmandan applied a better definition to.
I also understand the loss of fellowship and rewards theory of interpretation of Free Grace Dispensationalism and your counter that Grace is not free. I know the Faith Alone mantra and the Faith is Never Alone counter.
I know that some dislike and reject the concepts of were saved - are being saved - will be saved, and immediately allege works salvation against those who speak of salvation like that or explain that salvation is obviously a process based upon such concepts derived from the Text.
I also have a reasonably solid suspicion you don't know Greek as well as you may have been trying to make it seem like you do earlier and that you have backed off completely from using it and from getting deeper into any Scriptures since I offered to work with you in looking at any.
Why do you (singular or plural as necessary for the mouse or mice in your pocket) call the Sanctification process "conditional"? Most I've read and heard along the way call it experiential or progressive rather than conditional. What are the conditions?
1 Corinthians 10 is the NT interpretation of what happened under Moses. "Looking upon the snake hanging on the pole" was a single event in Israel's journey. This was not the only time God turned them away from destruction. You have taken this one incident to be the whole journey yet Paul said ALL that they went through is applicable to our lives. The Apostle says that they began the right way. Speaking to His brothers in the Lord He wrote:
(1) ALL our forefathers were under the CLOUD (of the Holy Spirit)
(2) ALL passed through the sea (WATER BAPTISM)
(3) All ate of the same spiritual food (COVENANT COMMUNION WITH CHRIST)
(4) All drank the same spiritual drink (THE WATER OF LIFE)
However, this was not the END of their narrative only the beginning and all of these blood-bought people were heirs of the covenant promises but ALL did not enter and claim their inheritance. The Apostle lists the temptations various ones failed to overcome. The result was that they PERISHED in the wilderness and did not complete the journey. According to Paul we should take these things as WARNINGS which bring GODLY FEAR as well as hope and encouragement:
Because I said that after we initially believe we must CONTINUE to believe you have assumed that I believe I must "keep myself" rather than trusting God to keep me. I do not see it. The same way that I initially ceased trusting myself and committed myself to Christ is the way I continue walking. 6Therefore, just as you have received Christ Jesus as Lord, CONTINUE TO WALK in Him (Col. 2:6)
(1) ALL our forefathers were under the CLOUD (of the Holy Spirit)
(2) ALL passed through the sea (WATER BAPTISM)
(3) All ate of the same spiritual food (COVENANT COMMUNION WITH CHRIST)
(4) All drank the same spiritual drink (THE WATER OF LIFE)
However, this was not the END of their narrative only the beginning and all of these blood-bought people were heirs of the covenant promises but ALL did not enter and claim their inheritance. The Apostle lists the temptations various ones failed to overcome. The result was that they PERISHED in the wilderness and did not complete the journey. According to Paul we should take these things as WARNINGS which bring GODLY FEAR as well as hope and encouragement:
Because I said that after we initially believe we must CONTINUE to believe you have assumed that I believe I must "keep myself" rather than trusting God to keep me. I do not see it. The same way that I initially ceased trusting myself and committed myself to Christ is the way I continue walking. 6Therefore, just as you have received Christ Jesus as Lord, CONTINUE TO WALK in Him (Col. 2:6)
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When you claim we must work to in the end be saved, then deny you are tryign to merit salvation. then you claim work out your salvation is work to earn it.
You have no right to accuse me of falsly accusing you of the very thing you are doing.
once again, if your not going to own up to your own belief system. don't blame others
You have no right to accuse me of falsly accusing you of the very thing you are doing.
once again, if your not going to own up to your own belief system. don't blame others
do you?
You keep asking me the same question. I guess you think if you can keep making it look like I am being dishonest and will not discuss the word with you. it will take the focus off you.
Eternal salvation is NOT based on being sanctified to the point we have become 100% like God (which is what we call being sanctified or conditional sanctification which is a daily process)
eternal salvation is based on whether we are justified, or declaimed righteous, like Abraham as having Gods righteousness placed on our account.
But you do not wish to discuss this. thats why you keep trying to turn everyones view from the fact you will not discuss this, but want to discuss somethign else.
Not going to happen.
You keep asking me the same question. I guess you think if you can keep making it look like I am being dishonest and will not discuss the word with you. it will take the focus off you.
Eternal salvation is NOT based on being sanctified to the point we have become 100% like God (which is what we call being sanctified or conditional sanctification which is a daily process)
eternal salvation is based on whether we are justified, or declaimed righteous, like Abraham as having Gods righteousness placed on our account.
But you do not wish to discuss this. thats why you keep trying to turn everyones view from the fact you will not discuss this, but want to discuss somethign else.
Not going to happen.
lol.
Again, I know.
its all of you
by the way 1 cor 10.. You need to study more. you are way off base.
Again, go to John 3. Then go look at the example of moses and the serpent. the serpent was the type of christ. and the same things that happened to those who lokked in faith will or has happened to all of us who look to christ.
Again, I know.
its all of you
by the way 1 cor 10.. You need to study more. you are way off base.
Again, go to John 3. Then go look at the example of moses and the serpent. the serpent was the type of christ. and the same things that happened to those who lokked in faith will or has happened to all of us who look to christ.
Yes breaking the seal would mean judgment. What I draw from from that is that, while we must LOVE the King we must also FEAR Him.
12Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now even more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation with FEAR AND TREMBLING. 13For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good purpose. [or,
giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him]
(Philippians 2:12-13)
The seal was a mark of ownership AUTHENTICATING the Kings claim on us. However, seals did not BIND a person to the recipient because they were breakable. Their very fragility was served the purpose of DETECTING TAMPERING. It also follows that we must take care not to treat our seal with carelessly . It is not SOLELY up to us to do this for as the verse above says God in the person of the Holy Spirit is WORKING IN US
12Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now even more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation with FEAR AND TREMBLING. 13For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good purpose. [or,
giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him]
(Philippians 2:12-13)
The seal was a mark of ownership AUTHENTICATING the Kings claim on us. However, seals did not BIND a person to the recipient because they were breakable. Their very fragility was served the purpose of DETECTING TAMPERING. It also follows that we must take care not to treat our seal with carelessly . It is not SOLELY up to us to do this for as the verse above says God in the person of the Holy Spirit is WORKING IN US
You both say you must continue to believe. if you fail to continue to believe you will be lost.
You go further and claim if you do not work out your salvation, you will not in the end be saved..
Now please. stop false accusing people for saying things you continue to say, and not owning your own words.
You go further and claim if you do not work out your salvation, you will not in the end be saved..
Now please. stop false accusing people for saying things you continue to say, and not owning your own words.
dude, if you are not going to break the quotes down like everyone else does.
I am not going to wast my time trying to break them out to answer them
Working our your salvation is not working to earn your justification. you can say that until your blue in the face. it will not make it so.
And you only want to discuss the scripture you want to discuss.. that have nothing to do with eternal justification.
so we are not going to get their until you admit you think you believe salvation in a continual thing that if not completed will fail.
I am not going to wast my time trying to break them out to answer them
Working our your salvation is not working to earn your justification. you can say that until your blue in the face. it will not make it so.
And you only want to discuss the scripture you want to discuss.. that have nothing to do with eternal justification.
so we are not going to get their until you admit you think you believe salvation in a continual thing that if not completed will fail.
either you show me and others the same respect we show you by breaking down the your responses so we can quote them and answer them
or show you have no respect for anyone.
I am done
You know full well when you do that and a person hits quote. non of your responses show up in the post. so we can not respond unless we go back out and copy everything in the former post.
try to show some humility for once. or is this to hard (Or again, are you trying to purposly hide your responses so we can not answer them?
or show you have no respect for anyone.
I am done
You know full well when you do that and a person hits quote. non of your responses show up in the post. so we can not respond unless we go back out and copy everything in the former post.
try to show some humility for once. or is this to hard (Or again, are you trying to purposly hide your responses so we can not answer them?
people stop believing in a person when they person continuously lets them down. we do not just trust someone then decide to not trust them
A lot of people are deceived into thinking someone else has betrayed them. Even if this is not true they might accept it as fact. I have seen this happen many times and, I assume, you hae too. People can misunderstand or be deceived
We do not just trust someone then decide to not trust them
Sure we do. It happens all the time.
I don't know. But I know even in my darkest hour as a prodigal son, I never stopped thinking that God was not trustworthy in keeping his promise of eternal life
(1) So you kept believing something. What does that prove? Perhaps you believed it because it comforted you to believe that you could sin as much as you wanted and still enter Eternal Glory.
(2) One result of believing that doctrine, apparently, was that you were not afraid to CONTINUE in your sins.
(3) According to the Apostle at that time, you were MOCKERS OF GOD who believes a man can sow without reaping
(4) How STRONGLY you held to this or any belief has nothing to do with the validity of it
(5) What the SCRIPTURE says is:
7Do not be deceived: God is not to be mocked. Whatever a man sows, he will reap in return. 8The one who sows to please his flesh, [present tense - habitually] from the flesh will reap destruction [future tense]; but the one who sows [present tense - continually] to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap ETERNAL LIFE.…(Galatians 6:7-8)
Paul says that claiming we can sow continually to the flesh and still NOT reap DESTRUCTION is MOCKING GOD.
(5) Notice that the FUTURE STATE of someone who has lived this way through his life is DESTRUCTION or phthora which means: Corruption, decay, destruction
Thayer adds this: in the Christian sense, the loss of salvation, eternal misery (which elsewhere is called ἀπώλεια)
This seems likely since it is juxtaposed with the opposite with ETERNAL LIFE
A lot of people are deceived into thinking someone else has betrayed them. Even if this is not true they might accept it as fact. I have seen this happen many times and, I assume, you hae too. People can misunderstand or be deceived
We do not just trust someone then decide to not trust them
Sure we do. It happens all the time.
I don't know. But I know even in my darkest hour as a prodigal son, I never stopped thinking that God was not trustworthy in keeping his promise of eternal life
(1) So you kept believing something. What does that prove? Perhaps you believed it because it comforted you to believe that you could sin as much as you wanted and still enter Eternal Glory.
(2) One result of believing that doctrine, apparently, was that you were not afraid to CONTINUE in your sins.
(3) According to the Apostle at that time, you were MOCKERS OF GOD who believes a man can sow without reaping
(4) How STRONGLY you held to this or any belief has nothing to do with the validity of it
(5) What the SCRIPTURE says is:
7Do not be deceived: God is not to be mocked. Whatever a man sows, he will reap in return. 8The one who sows to please his flesh, [present tense - habitually] from the flesh will reap destruction [future tense]; but the one who sows [present tense - continually] to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap ETERNAL LIFE.…(Galatians 6:7-8)
Paul says that claiming we can sow continually to the flesh and still NOT reap DESTRUCTION is MOCKING GOD.
(5) Notice that the FUTURE STATE of someone who has lived this way through his life is DESTRUCTION or phthora which means: Corruption, decay, destruction
Thayer adds this: in the Christian sense, the loss of salvation, eternal misery (which elsewhere is called ἀπώλεια)
This seems likely since it is juxtaposed with the opposite with ETERNAL LIFE
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)Happy to accommodate you. Please recall where the disrespect began, dude, lol, yawn. However, if you can only continue the disrespectful course and misrepresenting what I say and asserting I believe what you only think I believe, honestly, I could care less if you want to stop the discussion. I can suggest the "Ignore' function works well.
Why would you add this to my words. I never said not thought i could sin all I wanted. I said I was a prodigal son. a prodigal son has walked away. It does not mean he sins all he wants.. Its impossible for a child of God to sin all he wants.
again with the false claim.. Why do you fall back to the ad hominem that people who believe in the grace of God believe they can sin all they want. I never thought that. In fact. it was the chastening of God on thge FEW sins that I was doing at the time that helped me to return.
Not sure how this relates to what I said
The fact that I never stopped believing has everything to do with it.
Or I could look to the epistle of John
1 John 3: 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Now. it is not saying I will be sinless ort mess up. it is speaking of ongoing habitual sin.. Those people who you keep talking abhout who practice sin or think it is ok. they are not of God. they have never met God. And they have never been saved, so there is no possibility of them losing salvation. you can not lose what you do not have
Yes. they will be lost. BECAUSE THEY HAVE NEVER MET GOD.
A child of God can not practice sin. they can not live in sin, nor do they want to.
i did not want to sin. I left the church because my wife kicked me out of my house for another man. And I felt like a failure and judged because I was in a legalistic church where it was forbidden to leave the marraige. they expected me to fight for it.. and I was done. so I left.
i did not leave to start living in sin. However. due to my depression I did do some things I was never proud of.. But I never thought those things were ok. I could not continue in them, because it was like eating vomit. I was no longer a dog. I could not return to my vomit.
I am sorry you do not understand the basic truth of how Gods changes people
again with the false claim.. Why do you fall back to the ad hominem that people who believe in the grace of God believe they can sin all they want. I never thought that. In fact. it was the chastening of God on thge FEW sins that I was doing at the time that helped me to return.
Not sure how this relates to what I said
The fact that I never stopped believing has everything to do with it.
Or I could look to the epistle of John
1 John 3: 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Now. it is not saying I will be sinless ort mess up. it is speaking of ongoing habitual sin.. Those people who you keep talking abhout who practice sin or think it is ok. they are not of God. they have never met God. And they have never been saved, so there is no possibility of them losing salvation. you can not lose what you do not have
Yes. they will be lost. BECAUSE THEY HAVE NEVER MET GOD.
A child of God can not practice sin. they can not live in sin, nor do they want to.
i did not want to sin. I left the church because my wife kicked me out of my house for another man. And I felt like a failure and judged because I was in a legalistic church where it was forbidden to leave the marraige. they expected me to fight for it.. and I was done. so I left.
i did not leave to start living in sin. However. due to my depression I did do some things I was never proud of.. But I never thought those things were ok. I could not continue in them, because it was like eating vomit. I was no longer a dog. I could not return to my vomit.
I am sorry you do not understand the basic truth of how Gods changes people