The protestant reformation.
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Hi Aaron.
What do you think Mat 16:17-19 is all about? It looks to me like Jesus Christ was making St. Peter the First Pope of His Church.
Mat 16:
"17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this Rock I will build My Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Here is a Protestant Commentary on the passage: "The figure of the gates of Hades suggests the metaphor of the keys. There were keys of Hades, Rev 1:18; cf. 9:1; 20:1. The apocalyptic writer describes the risen Christ as having the keys of Hades, i.e. having power over it, power to enter it, and power to release from it, or to imprison in it. In the same way, 'the kingdom of the heavens' can be likened to a citadel with barred gates. He who held the keys would have power within it, power to admit, power to exclude. In Rev 3:7 this power is held by Christ Himself [quotes Rev 3:7]...The words are modelled on Is 22:22, and express supreme authority. To hold the keys is to have absolute right, which can be contested by none...It would, therefore, be not unexpected if we found the Messiah or Son of Man described as having the keys of the kingdom of the heavens. This would imply that He was supreme within it. But it is surprising to find this power delegated to S. Peter...To S. Peter were to be given the keys of the kingdom. The kingdom is here, as elsewhere in this Gospel, the kingdom to be inaugurated when the Son of Man came upon the clouds of heaven. If S. Peter was to hold supreme authority within it, the other apostles were also to have places of rank...To 'bind' and to 'loose' in Jewish legal terminology are equivalent to 'forbid' and 'allow,' to 'declare forbidden' and to 'declare allowed'...The terms, therefore, describe an authority of a legal nature. If he who has the keys has authority of an administrative nature, he who binds and looses exercises authority of a legislative character....Further, the position of v. 18, with its description of the Church as a fortress impregnable against the attacks of evil (the gates of Hades), suggest irresistibly that 'the keys of the kingdom' mean more than power to open merely, and imply rather authority within the kingdom. (Allen, The International Critical Commentary [orig 1909, 1985], page 176ff)" Taken from: http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/PeterRockKeysPrimacyRome.htm How do you interpret this passage, Aaron?
The above is why we believe Christ did not intend 10,000+denominations, but One Church with Pope and Bishops as Pastors to guide.
You don't care about the first 1500 years of Christianity? Is Martin Luther more important than Jesus Christ? Millions lived and died in those 1500 years, the gates of hell did not prevail, just as Christ had promised, and Millions were saved thanks to the Catholic Church.
Such accusations are easy to make and difficult to answer. Suffice to say having a Crucifix is not "idolatry",. We don't believe the Cross to be God, nor worship it. Jesus Christ Himself compared Himself being raised up on the Cross, to how Moses lifted the Bronze Serpent in the desert, that people may believe God had provided an Atonement for sin. See John 3:14. So images of Christ Crucified are not wrong. That is further confirmed in Gal 3:1, which shows there were portraits of Christ in the Early Church even in St. Paul's time.
Gal 3:1 "You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified."
God Bless.
What do you think Mat 16:17-19 is all about? It looks to me like Jesus Christ was making St. Peter the First Pope of His Church.
Mat 16:
"17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this Rock I will build My Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Here is a Protestant Commentary on the passage: "The figure of the gates of Hades suggests the metaphor of the keys. There were keys of Hades, Rev 1:18; cf. 9:1; 20:1. The apocalyptic writer describes the risen Christ as having the keys of Hades, i.e. having power over it, power to enter it, and power to release from it, or to imprison in it. In the same way, 'the kingdom of the heavens' can be likened to a citadel with barred gates. He who held the keys would have power within it, power to admit, power to exclude. In Rev 3:7 this power is held by Christ Himself [quotes Rev 3:7]...The words are modelled on Is 22:22, and express supreme authority. To hold the keys is to have absolute right, which can be contested by none...It would, therefore, be not unexpected if we found the Messiah or Son of Man described as having the keys of the kingdom of the heavens. This would imply that He was supreme within it. But it is surprising to find this power delegated to S. Peter...To S. Peter were to be given the keys of the kingdom. The kingdom is here, as elsewhere in this Gospel, the kingdom to be inaugurated when the Son of Man came upon the clouds of heaven. If S. Peter was to hold supreme authority within it, the other apostles were also to have places of rank...To 'bind' and to 'loose' in Jewish legal terminology are equivalent to 'forbid' and 'allow,' to 'declare forbidden' and to 'declare allowed'...The terms, therefore, describe an authority of a legal nature. If he who has the keys has authority of an administrative nature, he who binds and looses exercises authority of a legislative character....Further, the position of v. 18, with its description of the Church as a fortress impregnable against the attacks of evil (the gates of Hades), suggest irresistibly that 'the keys of the kingdom' mean more than power to open merely, and imply rather authority within the kingdom. (Allen, The International Critical Commentary [orig 1909, 1985], page 176ff)" Taken from: http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/PeterRockKeysPrimacyRome.htm How do you interpret this passage, Aaron?
The above is why we believe Christ did not intend 10,000+denominations, but One Church with Pope and Bishops as Pastors to guide.
You don't care about the first 1500 years of Christianity? Is Martin Luther more important than Jesus Christ? Millions lived and died in those 1500 years, the gates of hell did not prevail, just as Christ had promised, and Millions were saved thanks to the Catholic Church.
Such accusations are easy to make and difficult to answer. Suffice to say having a Crucifix is not "idolatry",. We don't believe the Cross to be God, nor worship it. Jesus Christ Himself compared Himself being raised up on the Cross, to how Moses lifted the Bronze Serpent in the desert, that people may believe God had provided an Atonement for sin. See John 3:14. So images of Christ Crucified are not wrong. That is further confirmed in Gal 3:1, which shows there were portraits of Christ in the Early Church even in St. Paul's time.
Gal 3:1 "You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified."
God Bless.
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The Catholic Church built Western Civilization. From Charities and Hospitals to Orphanages and Schools and much more. This is an excellent book on the subject: https://www.amazon.in/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/1596983280
"The Church also played an indispensable role in another essential development in Western civilization: the creation of the university. The university was an utterly new phenomenon in European history. Nothing like it had existed in ancient Greece or Rome. The institution that we recognize today, with its faculties, courses of study, examinations, and degrees, as well as the familiar distinction between undergraduate and graduate study, come to us directly from the medieval world. And it is no surprise that the Church should have done so much to foster the nascent university system, since the Church, according to historian Lowrie Daly, "was the only institution in Europe that showed consistent interest in the preservation and cultivation of knowledge."
The popes and other churchmen ranked the universities among the great jewels of Christian civilization. It was typical to hear the University of Paris described as the "new Athens" — a designation that calls to mind the ambitions of the great Alcuin from the Carolingian period of several centuries earlier, who sought through his own educational efforts to establish a new Athens in the kingdom of the Franks. Pope Innocent IV (1243—54) described the universities as "rivers of science which water and make fertile the soil of the universal Church," and Pope Alexander IV (1254—61) called them "lanterns shining in the house of God." And the popes deserved no small share of the credit for the growth and success of the university system. "Thanks to the repeated intervention of the papacy," writes historian Henri Daniel-Rops, "higher education was enabled to extend its boundaries; the Church, in fact, was the matrix that produced the university, the nest whence it took flight." https://www.lewrockwell.com/2005/05/thomas-woods/how-the-catholic-church-built-western-civilization/
Don't have time for the rest right now, but St. Paul, St. James and St. John use "father", proving your interpretation is wrong:
"I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one." (1 Jn2:13)
"21Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?" (Jam 2:21)
"Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel." (1 Cor 4:15)
In Christ,
Xavier.
"The Church also played an indispensable role in another essential development in Western civilization: the creation of the university. The university was an utterly new phenomenon in European history. Nothing like it had existed in ancient Greece or Rome. The institution that we recognize today, with its faculties, courses of study, examinations, and degrees, as well as the familiar distinction between undergraduate and graduate study, come to us directly from the medieval world. And it is no surprise that the Church should have done so much to foster the nascent university system, since the Church, according to historian Lowrie Daly, "was the only institution in Europe that showed consistent interest in the preservation and cultivation of knowledge."
The popes and other churchmen ranked the universities among the great jewels of Christian civilization. It was typical to hear the University of Paris described as the "new Athens" — a designation that calls to mind the ambitions of the great Alcuin from the Carolingian period of several centuries earlier, who sought through his own educational efforts to establish a new Athens in the kingdom of the Franks. Pope Innocent IV (1243—54) described the universities as "rivers of science which water and make fertile the soil of the universal Church," and Pope Alexander IV (1254—61) called them "lanterns shining in the house of God." And the popes deserved no small share of the credit for the growth and success of the university system. "Thanks to the repeated intervention of the papacy," writes historian Henri Daniel-Rops, "higher education was enabled to extend its boundaries; the Church, in fact, was the matrix that produced the university, the nest whence it took flight." https://www.lewrockwell.com/2005/05/thomas-woods/how-the-catholic-church-built-western-civilization/
Don't have time for the rest right now, but St. Paul, St. James and St. John use "father", proving your interpretation is wrong:
"I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one." (1 Jn2:13)
"21Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?" (Jam 2:21)
"Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel." (1 Cor 4:15)
In Christ,
Xavier.
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"Can't" is a very strong statement. I don't agree. I'm banned from Catholic forums because I am so opposed to the Catholic organisation. And I am not afraid to say so. However, some Catholics are loyal to the organisation while disagreeing with some aspects of it. The question for them is, do they stay within and try to change things or leave. Personally, I'd advise them to leave, but I won't condemn them for staying.
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I know the Roman fallacy. And I'm still trying to find "pope" in what you provided.
The rock (petra) is what Peter (petros) pronounced: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Peter even taught that Christ was the chief cornerstone: “The stone which the builders rejected, Has become the chief cornerstone,”
Then, Jesus, addressing His disciples, said, "...and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
The rock is the truth that Christ is the Son of the Living God. Binding and loosing is given to the disciples of Christ.
Peter would be turning in his grave knowing how the Romans bastardized the word of Jesus.
The rock (petra) is what Peter (petros) pronounced: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Peter even taught that Christ was the chief cornerstone: “The stone which the builders rejected, Has become the chief cornerstone,”
Then, Jesus, addressing His disciples, said, "...and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
The rock is the truth that Christ is the Son of the Living God. Binding and loosing is given to the disciples of Christ.
Peter would be turning in his grave knowing how the Romans bastardized the word of Jesus.
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1 Jn 5:1 "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father also loves those born of Him.a 2By this we know that we love the children of God: when we love God and keep His commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome, 4because everyone born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world: our faith."
Catholic Christians believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God (and the Catholic Church taught the World the Holy Trinity, that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are God, and One God with the Father), and therefore Catholic Christians are born again and have eternal life per St. John.
Catholic Christians believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God (and the Catholic Church taught the World the Holy Trinity, that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are God, and One God with the Father), and therefore Catholic Christians are born again and have eternal life per St. John.
What Jesus Christ said should be translated like this: "You are Rock, and on this Rock I will build My Church". Jesus Christ was giving Simon a new name to signify his new mission. Nobody else had been called "Peter" until that time. The Lord's meaning is plain.
"16:18, Peter as Rock. Peter is the foundation rock on which Jesus builds the new community. The name 'Peter' means 'stone' or 'rock' (Aramaic Kepha Cepha; Greek petros).... There are no documented instances of anyone's ever being named 'rock' in Aramaic or Greek prior to Simon. Thus English translations should render the word 'stone' or 'rock,' not 'Peter,' which gives the false impression that the word represented a common name and causes the contemporary reader to miss the word play of the passage: 'You are Rock, and on this rock I will build my church.' Peter is here pictured as the foundation of the church....On the basis of Isa 51:1-2 (cf. Matt 3:9), some scholars have seen Peter as here paralleled to Abraham; just as Abram stood at the beginning of the people of God, had his name changed, and was called a rock, so also Peter stands at the beginning of the new people of God and receives the Abrahamic name 'rock' to signify this." (The New Interpreter's Bible [Abingdon Press, 1995], volume 8, page 345)
In Aramaic, the language the Lord spoke, it would have been "You are Kephas, and on this Kephas I will build my Church". The Petra/Petros thing is only in Greek and is easily explained by the fact that Peter is masculine, not feminine. See the link for more.
And please refer to Isa 22:22 for context. The royal steward held the key of David to signify he had authority over the members of the royal household. Jesus Christ is giving this authority to St. Peter. That means he is making St. Peter the Chief Pastor of His Church.
"Jesus is intentionally drawing attention to the context of Isaiah's prophecy -- a new steward is being placed over the kingdom of Judah -- as the backdrop for his current appointment of Peter as steward over his kingdom. Jesus ascends the throne of David as the heir and successor of the kings of Israel and Judah, and he too, according to custom and legal precedent, appoints a royal steward over his kingdom. Notice the words used to describe the steward: he has an 'office'; he is 'over the household [vizier]'; 'authority' is committed into his hand; he shall be a 'father' [root word of pope or papa means father, btw] to the people of God; he is given the 'keys' of authority; he has the unquestioned supremacy to open and shut so that no one can oppose him; he is fastened firmly as a peg; he will 'become a throne of honor to his father's house'; and on him will hang the weight of everything in the king's house....The parallels between Peter and Eliakim are striking. The physical kingdom of Israel has been superseded by the spiritual kingdom of God. The office of steward in the old economy is now superseded by the Petrine office with the delegation and handing on of the keys. The office of steward was successive, and so is the Petrine office in the new kingdom." (Stephen K. Ray, Upon This Rock [Ignatius Press, 1999] from "Appendix B: An Old Testament Basis for the Primacy and Succession of St. Peter," page 273-4)
God Bless.
"16:18, Peter as Rock. Peter is the foundation rock on which Jesus builds the new community. The name 'Peter' means 'stone' or 'rock' (Aramaic Kepha Cepha; Greek petros).... There are no documented instances of anyone's ever being named 'rock' in Aramaic or Greek prior to Simon. Thus English translations should render the word 'stone' or 'rock,' not 'Peter,' which gives the false impression that the word represented a common name and causes the contemporary reader to miss the word play of the passage: 'You are Rock, and on this rock I will build my church.' Peter is here pictured as the foundation of the church....On the basis of Isa 51:1-2 (cf. Matt 3:9), some scholars have seen Peter as here paralleled to Abraham; just as Abram stood at the beginning of the people of God, had his name changed, and was called a rock, so also Peter stands at the beginning of the new people of God and receives the Abrahamic name 'rock' to signify this." (The New Interpreter's Bible [Abingdon Press, 1995], volume 8, page 345)
In Aramaic, the language the Lord spoke, it would have been "You are Kephas, and on this Kephas I will build my Church". The Petra/Petros thing is only in Greek and is easily explained by the fact that Peter is masculine, not feminine. See the link for more.
And please refer to Isa 22:22 for context. The royal steward held the key of David to signify he had authority over the members of the royal household. Jesus Christ is giving this authority to St. Peter. That means he is making St. Peter the Chief Pastor of His Church.
"Jesus is intentionally drawing attention to the context of Isaiah's prophecy -- a new steward is being placed over the kingdom of Judah -- as the backdrop for his current appointment of Peter as steward over his kingdom. Jesus ascends the throne of David as the heir and successor of the kings of Israel and Judah, and he too, according to custom and legal precedent, appoints a royal steward over his kingdom. Notice the words used to describe the steward: he has an 'office'; he is 'over the household [vizier]'; 'authority' is committed into his hand; he shall be a 'father' [root word of pope or papa means father, btw] to the people of God; he is given the 'keys' of authority; he has the unquestioned supremacy to open and shut so that no one can oppose him; he is fastened firmly as a peg; he will 'become a throne of honor to his father's house'; and on him will hang the weight of everything in the king's house....The parallels between Peter and Eliakim are striking. The physical kingdom of Israel has been superseded by the spiritual kingdom of God. The office of steward in the old economy is now superseded by the Petrine office with the delegation and handing on of the keys. The office of steward was successive, and so is the Petrine office in the new kingdom." (Stephen K. Ray, Upon This Rock [Ignatius Press, 1999] from "Appendix B: An Old Testament Basis for the Primacy and Succession of St. Peter," page 273-4)
God Bless.
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Your understanding is not correct. The rock is the revelation that Jesus is the Son of God. This is the cornerstone of the church.
We never see Peter as the leader of the church in the rest of scripture.
In fact, during the Jerusalem Council meeting with Peter present (Acts 15), James the brother of Jesus presides over the council, not Peter.
Rome created the office of "pope" to mirror the "emperor"; the office of "cardinal" to mirror the "senate"; the "bishop" (in function) to mirror the "governors"; etc. Why? Because they were creating an institution that mirrored the state.
(this is for the benefit of the readers of the thread)
We never see Peter as the leader of the church in the rest of scripture.
In fact, during the Jerusalem Council meeting with Peter present (Acts 15), James the brother of Jesus presides over the council, not Peter.
Rome created the office of "pope" to mirror the "emperor"; the office of "cardinal" to mirror the "senate"; the "bishop" (in function) to mirror the "governors"; etc. Why? Because they were creating an institution that mirrored the state.
(this is for the benefit of the readers of the thread)
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Roman Catholics see their idol, Peter the man.
Yet, all references of the one who would come to rule speak of Jesus Christ.
"The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham..."
"And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”"
"For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
This is all about Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ was not the natural son of David yet He is called the "son of David". This relates to His spiritual office as High Priest of the order of Melchizedek and of being the firstborn of a nation of royal priests. David was such a priest and the prophesies foretold of one to come from his line.
Yet, all references of the one who would come to rule speak of Jesus Christ.
"The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham..."
"And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”"
"For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
This is all about Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ was not the natural son of David yet He is called the "son of David". This relates to His spiritual office as High Priest of the order of Melchizedek and of being the firstborn of a nation of royal priests. David was such a priest and the prophesies foretold of one to come from his line.
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Correct. Peter would be the last person to claim that he is the Rock upon which the Church is built. And he would also totally reject all the claims made by the Vatican on his behalf.
So why did Christ call him Petros (Kepha in Aramaic, or Cephas when transliterated into English)? Jesus knew that Peter was a very impetuous person, but one day he would be as firm as a stone (or little rock). We see this in the epistles of Peter, who asserts that all of Paul's epistles must be treated as Scripture, and that his own epistles are "a more sure word of prophecy". And Paul's do have some things in them which are hard to understand. But Christ gave Peter the "keys" of the Kingdom of God since he was a leader. Which means that when Peter preached the Gospel to both Jews and Gentiles (hence "keys" is plural) he opened the door of salvation to all. Yet Peter had a very hard time believing that God wanted to save the Gentiles as much as the Jews (very similar to Jonah).
So why did Christ call him Petros (Kepha in Aramaic, or Cephas when transliterated into English)? Jesus knew that Peter was a very impetuous person, but one day he would be as firm as a stone (or little rock). We see this in the epistles of Peter, who asserts that all of Paul's epistles must be treated as Scripture, and that his own epistles are "a more sure word of prophecy". And Paul's do have some things in them which are hard to understand. But Christ gave Peter the "keys" of the Kingdom of God since he was a leader. Which means that when Peter preached the Gospel to both Jews and Gentiles (hence "keys" is plural) he opened the door of salvation to all. Yet Peter had a very hard time believing that God wanted to save the Gentiles as much as the Jews (very similar to Jonah).
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K
Yeah', I should probably just stay out of this... lol 
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You said: “Christians may differ politically; they may differ in attitudes to all kinds of issues.” The examples I gave are not issues that Christians should differ in attitude. God made male and female in his image, and he knew us before he formed us; Satan tells you that there’s a whole spectrum of gender, and abortion is just getting rid of a clump of cells. Which side are you in? That’s not a hate list, that’s a litmus test.
K
As someone who has traveled in Protestant churches I can tell you that many are born again and those who are not are hungry for the Word. I was in a Methodist church that even believed in speaking in tongues. I don't know what church you attend, but you need to visit a few churches before you make blanket statements.
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