The Punctuation of Luke 23:43

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where does the comma go? is there a comma?

  • Amen I say to you today you will be with me in paradise

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Amen, I say to you today you will be with me in paradise!

    Votes: 1 9.1%
  • Amen I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise!

    Votes: 4 36.4%
  • Amen I say to you, today, you will be with me in paradise!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Amen I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise!

    Votes: 6 54.5%
  • Amen! I say to you today you will be with me in paradise!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Amen, I say to you today. You will be with me in paradise!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Amen I say to you, today. You will be with me in paradise!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other ((by all means, comment))

    Votes: 1 9.1%

  • Total voters
    11

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
20,657
2,940
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#1
vote up to 3 times and comment infinitely :D

text in poll is ESV, but i substituted the literal Greek "
amen" for 'verily/truly' and put an exclamation point at the end because, well, it's an amazing thing He says!
((did you know where our Bibles say '
verily' Jesus is actually literally saying the word "amen"? i learned that today :) -- pretty interesting point in view of Isaiah 65:16, where "the God of truth" is literally in Hebrew also, 'the Amen God' or 'God of amen' eh?))

there is no punctuation in the Greek; it's added by translators, interpretively. where the comma or commas go in this thing the Lord says on the cross can radically change how it's read, as i hope you see by looking at a partial list of variations. how does it make sense to you?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
6,886
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#2
there is no punctuation in the Greek; it's added by translators, interpretively.
That's right. And since Christ did not go to Paradise on that day, but instead went to Hades for 3 days and 3 nights before going to Paradise (which is in Heaven), the punctuation in the English translation was incorrect.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
5,522
2,834
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72
#3
Luke 23:43 “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” But the commas were added so it could say: Luke 23:43 “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.” That just says he is today telling him. Do you really think Jesus went to paradise or heaven that very day? That is not what most people say.

Nobody is going to spend an eternity in flames. Romans 6:23:
“For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord," Death is death, not everlasting life in a fire. The RCC started the myth of everlasting life in fiery torment. They also started the last rites confession.

The mansions that the Father is preparing for us will come down with the new Jerusalem.

Acts 7 says nothing other than a vision of Stephen and a statement from him for God to receive his spirit. The Father does preserve the spirits but they are not conscience.


Acts 7:56
“And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.”

John 1:18
“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” Must be a vision then.

Again, I say: The Father does preserve the spirits but they are not conscience.

Here are some references to the unconscious saints.

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6:
“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.”

Psalms 6:5:
“For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?”

Psalms 30:9:
“What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?”

Psalms 115:17:
“The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”

Isaiah 38:18:
For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.”


Psalms 88:10-12: “Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

Psalms 115:17: “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into
silence.”
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
6,886
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#4
Nobody is going to spend an eternity in flames. Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord," Death is death, not everlasting life in a fire.
Obviously you either have no concept of death as revealed in Scripture, or you prefer to promote false cultic beliefs about Soul Sleep and Annihilationism. You can blame the Catholic Church for many things, but at least they did not tamper with the doctrine of Hell (as you are doing).
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
457
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#5
Obviously you either have no concept of death as revealed in Scripture, or you prefer to promote false cultic beliefs about Soul Sleep and Annihilationism.
You left out option "C": Your understanding of death and hell as presented in Scripture is in error.

You can blame the Catholic Church for many things, but at least they did not tamper with the doctrine of Hell (as you are doing).
Right... Can you say "purgatory"? :)
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
457
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#6
That's right. And since Christ did not go to Paradise on that day, but instead went to Hades for 3 days and 3 nights
Right. Jesus was dead for three days and three nights.

before going to Paradise (which is in Heaven)
Christ did not go to Paradise. After he was resurrected, he went to proclaim his victory to the devil spirits imprisoned in Tartarus. He then came back and hung out on earth, showing himself to his disciples before ascending to his Father 10 days before Pentecost. Paradise is still future, and it will be on earth (the millennial kingdom).

the punctuation in the English translation was incorrect.
Which English translation?

My vote is the 5th one: "Amen I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise!"
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
6,886
1,179
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#7
Right. Jesus was dead for three days and three nights.
No. In fact He was very much alive in Hades, and went and preached (made proclamation) to the spirits in prison.

His soul was NOT SLEEPING in that tomb (as you mistakenly think).

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, [HADES] neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Acts 2:27)
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
457
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#8
No. In fact He was very much alive in Hades, and went and preached (made proclamation) to the spirits in prison.
He did that in his resurrected body.

His soul was NOT SLEEPING in that tomb (as you mistakenly think).
Jesus was dead.

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, [HADES] neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Acts 2:27)
Right. Jesus died, and was dead, in hell (the grave). The Father raised him from the dead.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
20,657
2,940
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#9
it's true He was dead; He says so:

I am He that lives, and was dead;
and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen;
and have the keys of hades and of death.
(Revelation 1:18 AKJV)

question becomes, what does He mean by "dead" ? what's His definition here?

interesting discussion spurred through this poll, yay :)
((same word "
amen" = "verily" in this verse too))
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
457
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#10
question becomes, what does He mean by "dead" ? what's His definition here?
Yes, that is apparently the question.

What is death according to the Bible?

Ecc 9:
5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
10) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Ps 6:
5) For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

There are many more.
 

LPT

Senior Member
Dec 24, 2017
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525
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#11
vote up to 3 times and comment infinitely :D

text in poll is ESV, but i substituted the literal Greek "amen" for 'verily/truly' and put an exclamation point at the end because, well, it's an amazing thing He says!
((did you know where our Bibles say '
verily' Jesus is actually literally saying the word "amen"? i learned that today :) -- pretty interesting point in view of Isaiah 65:16, where "the God of truth" is literally in Hebrew also, 'the Amen God' or 'God of amen' eh?))


there is no punctuation in the Greek; it's added by translators, interpretively. where the comma or commas go in this thing the Lord says on the cross can radically change how it's read, as i hope you see by looking at a partial list of variations. how does it make sense to you?
I suppose the word (verily) can be used in different ways maybe not always saying amen depending on context, IMO I think he is saying truly truly in verse below.

John 16:23
And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
20,657
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#12
I suppose the word (verily) can be used in different ways maybe not always saying amen depending on context, IMO I think he is saying truly truly in verse below.

John 16:23
And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
you could look at it this way, too -- that if He were a prophet, He would say "thus saith the LORD" but He never says that, not even once, even though He prophesies. instead He says "amen, amen I tell you"

You will leave your name for a curse to My chosen ones,
And the Lord God will slay you.
But My servants will be called by another name.
Because he who is blessed in the earth
Will be blessed by the God of truth;
And he who swears in the earth
Will swear by the God of truth;
Because the former troubles are forgotten,
And because they are hidden from My sight!
(Isaiah 65:15-16 NASB)
the appellation "God of truth" in the above is literally the Hebrew word "amen" translated as "of truth"
so is accurately read, "
the God Amen" -- i could see how that knowing YHWH calls Himself "the God Amen" in this Messianic prophecy, when Jesus is prophesying, saying "Amen I tell you" instead of "the LORD says" He is making Himself equal to YHWH; He is declaring Himself the Lord God by associating Himself with what was told through the prophet.
 

LPT

Senior Member
Dec 24, 2017
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#13
you could look at it this way, too -- that if He were a prophet, He would say "thus saith the LORD" but He never says that, not even once, even though He prophesies. instead He says "amen, amen I tell you"

You will leave your name for a curse to My chosen ones,
And the Lord God will slay you.
But My servants will be called by another name.
Because he who is blessed in the earth
Will be blessed by the God of truth;
And he who swears in the earth
Will swear by the God of truth;
Because the former troubles are forgotten,
And because they are hidden from My sight!
(Isaiah 65:15-16 NASB)
the appellation "God of truth" in the above is literally the Hebrew word "amen" translated as "of truth"
so is accurately read, "
the God Amen" -- i could see how that knowing YHWH calls Himself "the God Amen" in this Messianic prophecy, when Jesus is prophesying, saying "Amen I tell you" instead of "the LORD says" He is making Himself equal to YHWH; He is declaring Himself the Lord God by associating Himself with what was told through the prophet.
Well I've always thought of it as when used at the end of statement to say (so be it), at the beginning of a statement (to be firm) its possible the word was derived from Latin from Aramaic (Aman) here's a read I was reading on about the word.


“Occasionally, while the preacher is presenting a lesson, someone in the audience will say, ‘Amen.’ Is this practice in keeping with the Bible? If so, what does ‘Amen’ mean?”
The term “Amen” is common to both the Old Testament and the New Testament, and it has a variety of uses, depending upon the context in which it is found.

The Hebrew word, amen, means “surely, indeed, truly.” It derives from a root form, aman, which signifies “to be firm, steady, trustworthy, faithful” (again, the context can suggest which of these shades of meaning is most appropriate in a particular setting). The following is a sampling of the major uses of this important word.

Amen: An Agreement or Affirmation
“Amen” was used as an affirmation, asserting comprehension of, and agreement with, certain laws imposed by Jehovah upon the nation of Israel. Read carefully Deuteronomy 27:15-26. For example: “Cursed be the man who makes a graven or molten image (an abomination unto Jehovah), the work of the hands of the craftsman, and sets it up in secret. And all the people shall answer and say, ‘Amen’” (v. 15).

One scholar notes: “Whoever pronounces the Amen to them [the laws] acknowledges awareness of the sentence for the pertinent activities. Thus the speaker judges his/her own guilt in the event such a crime is committed” (H. Wineberger in: Theological Lexicon of the Old Testament, Ernst Jenni & Claus Westermann, Eds., Peabody, MA: Hendrickson 1997, Vol. I, p. 146).

Amen: An Endorsement of Praise or Prayer
“Amen,” in both Testaments, could be employed as an affirmation of endorsement as a concluding pronouncement in connection with either praise or prayer. Note Psalm 41:13. “Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Israel, From everlasting and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen” (see also: Rom. 11:36).
One of the gifts granted to the early church was the supernatural ability to speak in languages that had never been learned by the normal educational routine. But this gracious bestowal was subject to abuse. One might possess the gift of a certain language, yet attempt to exercise it in an assembly where no one spoke that particular tongue. Accordingly, under such a circumstance, unless there was a brother present who possessed the gift of “interpretation,” and who could, therefore, convey the message to the assembly, the brother with the language-gift was to remain silent (see 1 Cor. 14:1ff).

It is within this context that the apostle asks this rhetorical question – if we may expand and paraphrase, based upon the textual information. “If one pronounces a blessing (i.e., he gives thanks), under the influence of the Spirit in a language that some do not understand, how will those who are unlearned in that tongue be able to say ‘Amen’ at the conclusion, since they do not understand the words being spoken?” This shows that endorsing a prayer with “Amen” was a practice in the early church.

In this connection we must make this comment. The use of “Amen,” in conjunction with a prayer or sermon, means that the one who utters this word “puts himself into the statement with all earnestness of faith and intensity of desire” (Gleason Archer, Wycliffe Dictionary of Theology, Everett Harrison, Geoffrey Bromiley & Carl Henry, Eds., Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1999, p. 39).
This means that the term must not be used flippantly or in a haphazard fashion. Those who “Amen” a point that they do not even understand, but do so simply from habit, err. Those who caustically “Amen” the preacher – to throw the point back into his face as a matter of protest, trample on the sacred. Amen-ing is serious business.

Amen: The Truthfulness of the Inspired Documents
“Amen” was used on occasion at the conclusion of a letter, the design of which seems to have been to emphasize the integrity of the writing. It would be the equivalent of: “What I have written is the truth!” (see Rom. 16:27; Jude 25).

Amen: The Faithfulness of God
The term is used to stress the reliability or faithfulness of God. Listen to the prophet Isaiah. “. . . [H]e who blesses himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth . . .” (65:16), or as the New English Bible renders it: “He who invokes a blessing on himself in the land shall do so by the God whose name is Amen . . .” (see also the ASVfootnote). “He is the God of truth, for in the carrying out of all His promises of blessing and threatenings of judgment, He has been successful and has shown that what He has spoken is true” (Edward J. Young, The Book of Isaiah, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1972, III, p. 512).

The “Amen” expression appears to be used of Christ in like fashion in the New Testament. In his second Corinthian letter, Paul refers to the great host of “the promises of God” which have come to fruition in the work accomplished by Jesus. He asserts that these blessings have never been an uncertain matter (a sometimes-“yes” or sometimes-“no” proposition); rather, the Lord Jesus is a definite, “Yes!” to that realization. He is God’s “Amen!” to the hope for the human family (2 Cor. 1:20).

There is a similar point to be made in Isaiah 55:3, where the Messianic promise is called the “sure mercies of David,” or, as it is suggested in the Hebrew text, “the amen-ed mercies of David.” Paul provides the Messianic interpretation in his sermon at Antioch (Pisidia), with special emphasis on the Lord’s resurrection (Acts 13:34). See also Revelation 3:14 where Christ identifies himself as the “Amen,” which is virtually defined as “the faithful and true witness.”

Amen: Spoken by Christ
“Amen,” as found in the Gospel accounts, is employed by Jesus alone. In the Gospel of John, it is always used in the double format, rendered in English by “verily, verily” (25 times). It emphasizes the authority with which Christ spoke, and it takes on the essence of a “thus says the Lord” (J. Millar & N.J. Opperwall, The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia – Revised, Geoffrey Bromiley, Ed., Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1979, Vol. I, p. 110).

It makes for a fascinating study to observe how Jesus used this term to forcefully emphasize certain truths. For example: None of the law of Moses would fail (not a particle) until it was fulfilled (Mt. 5:18). Those who are religious show-offs receive their “full reward” in that praise they elicit from men (Mt. 6:2,5,16). Eternal punishment will be “more tolerable” for those of earlier historical periods, than for those who reject Christ (Mt. 10:15). No one can enter the kingdom of God except but by the new birth, the components of which are the Spirit and water (Jn. 3:3,5), etc.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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#14
Would the answers be different if God were not constrained to our time-line?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
20,657
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#15
There is a similar point to be made in Isaiah 55:3, where the Messianic promise is called the “sure mercies of David,” or, as it is suggested in the Hebrew text, “the amen-ed mercies of David.” Paul provides the Messianic interpretation in his sermon at Antioch (Pisidia), with special emphasis on the Lord’s resurrection (Acts 13:34). See also Revelation 3:14 where Christ identifies himself as the “Amen,” which is virtually defined as “the faithful and true witness.”

this is amazing, i had forgotten about Revelation 3:14 -- "these things saith The Amen" !

and i didn't know NEB actually translates that passage in Isaiah as "
the God whose name is Amen"

awesome, thanks for sharing :)
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
7,471
429
83
#16
That's right. And since Christ did not go to Paradise on that day, but instead went to Hades for 3 days and 3 nights before going to Paradise (which is in Heaven), the punctuation in the English translation was incorrect.
Hi Nehemiah6,

You don't believe that Jesus went to paradise that very day? I do. The word paradise is not unique or specific referring just to heaven, for the garden of Eden was also referred to as paradise. Regarding this, in the event of the rich man and Lazarus we the following:

"So he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are left to suffer."

So, there was water down in that area of Sheol/Hades and Abraham referred to it as a place of comfort, i.e. paradise. The rich man on the other hand, was in the other area where he was in torment in flame.

I believe that when Jesus told the man next to him "today you will be with me in paradise" that he was referring to where their spirits would depart to at the time of death, which was that same place of comfort/paradise where Abraham, Lazarus and all the rest of the OT saints were.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
7,471
429
83
#17
vote up to 3 times and comment infinitely :D

text in poll is ESV, but i substituted the literal Greek "amen" for 'verily/truly' and put an exclamation point at the end because, well, it's an amazing thing He says!
((did you know where our Bibles say '
verily' Jesus is actually literally saying the word "amen"? i learned that today :) -- pretty interesting point in view of Isaiah 65:16, where "the God of truth" is literally in Hebrew also, 'the Amen God' or 'God of amen' eh?))


there is no punctuation in the Greek; it's added by translators, interpretively. where the comma or commas go in this thing the Lord says on the cross can radically change how it's read, as i hope you see by looking at a partial list of variations. how does it make sense to you?
I have run into several people who have claimed that the comma is in the wrong place, mostly those who are advocates of soul-sleep, because it destroys their belief, ergo, move the comma. It's just apart of the same spirit of deception in the world. It is along the same lines as claiming that the rich man and Lazarus as being a parable.

First of all, I have looked at all of the major translations and not one of them puts the comma after the word "today." The comma is always placed before the word "today."

1). "And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

2). "And He said to him, "Truly I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.

Verse 1 above puts the focus on the thief being in paradise with Jesus that very same day. While verse 2 puts the focus on what day Jesus was telling the man about paradise, which makes Jesus sound like Shakespeare in the park.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
457
83
#18
I have run into several people who have claimed that the comma is in the wrong place, mostly those who are advocates of soul-sleep
Personally, I'm an advocate of what the Bible teaches about death.

because it destroys their belief, ergo, move the comma.
If you're basing your doctrines on the placement of a comma, you'll have problems. There was no punctuation in the texts.

It's just apart of the same spirit of deception in the world.
Do you mean this deception?

Gen 3:
4) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Satan has managed to convince almost the entire Christian Church that death is not that bad, that when you die, you'll "go home to be with Jesus". It's not true. Death is an enemy, not the gateway to the afterlife (1 Cor 15:26).

It is along the same lines as claiming that the rich man and Lazarus as being a parable.
It is indeed a parable. Do you really envision paradise as sitting there with Abraham listening to the screams of those in torments just across the gulf?

First of all, I have looked at all of the major translations and not one of them puts the comma after the word "today." The comma is always placed before the word "today."
Of course. Most of Christianity believes like you do, that when a person dies, only his body dies, but his soul/spirit goes floating off to be with Jesus (or to the fires of eternal hell, if you're not saved).

1). "And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

2). "And He said to him, "Truly I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.

Verse 1 above puts the focus on the thief being in paradise with Jesus that very same day. While verse 2 puts the focus on what day Jesus was telling the man about paradise, which makes Jesus sound like Shakespeare in the park.
Actually, #2 puts the focus on Jesus' love for the thief. Jesus was emphatically telling him that he would be saved. Jesus wanted the thief to KNOW that he would be saved.

We use the same figure of speech for emphasis today. "I'm telling you right now that I will wash the car this afternoon". It's for emphasis.

Our hope is not in dying, but in the return of Christ, when the dead in Christ shall rise.

( I believe Ahwatukee has me on ignore, but hopefully others will read..)
 

LPT

Senior Member
Dec 24, 2017
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525
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#19
this is amazing, i had forgotten about Revelation 3:14 -- "these things saith The Amen" !

and i didn't know NEB actually translates that passage in Isaiah as "the God whose name is Amen"

awesome, thanks for sharing :)
Your welcome and thanks for posting the topic, I've learned something from this thread as well. :)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
6,886
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#20
You don't believe that Jesus went to paradise that very day? I do.
Well I guess we would have to disagree.

Every description of Sheol/Hades excludes any suggestion that Paradise would be *Abraham's bosom* in Hades. You may go through all references to Sheol in the OT (sometimes call the "grave" mistakenly). That Sheol and Hades are identical is confirmed in Psalm 16:10 and Acts 2:27.

But Paradise is always shown to be in the New Jerusalem, which is in Heaven (2 Cor 12:1-4). So Paradise was the destination of all the OT saints after the resurrection of Christ, and we find them as "the spirits of just men made perfect" in the New Jerusalem (Heb 12:22-24).