The Purpose of the Gift of Divers Tongues

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notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#81
Speaking in a language that happens to be foreign to the people in your congregation is not a gift of the Holy Spirit. Even unbelievers can do that.
How do you know that is true? Is that not what occurred in Act 2 at Pentecost? Show me that is not what happened at Corinth?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#82
How do you know that is true? Is that not what occurred in Act 2 at Pentecost? Show me that is not what happened at Corinth?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
The letter to Corinth was about spoken earthly languages/dialects and dealing with the various these languages so that the meetings were held in an orderly fashion.

Not all the gifts Paul was addressing were of the miraculous type, 1 Cor 12: 28 makes this clear.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
16,967
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#83
Speaking in a language that happens to be foreign to the people in your congregation is not a gift of the Holy Spirit. Even unbelievers can do that.
Except that we are not talking about unbelievers.

The gift of supernaturally speaking in a foreign language (which had never been learned by the speaker) was evidence that God the Holy Spirit was empowering that person. This was a sign to unbelieving Jews that the Gospel was from God. And that is why the apostles and disciples were enabled to speak in approximately 15 languages and dialects on the Day of Pentecost.

In the law [the OT] it is written, With [men of ] other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1 Cor 14:21,22).
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people [the Jews]. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. (Isa 28:11,12)

In spite of the miracle on the Day of Pentecost, Israel (as a whole) did not believe the Gospel. But this same gift of tongues was being manifested in the apostolic churches, and 1 Cor 12-14 was written TO CORRECT THE ABUSES of this gift, as well as teach us about the various gifts of the Spirit.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#84
Except that we are not talking about unbelievers.

The gift of supernaturally speaking in a foreign language (which had never been learned by the speaker) was evidence that God the Holy Spirit was empowering that person. This was a sign to unbelieving Jews that the Gospel was from God. And that is why the apostles and disciples were enabled to speak in approximately 15 languages and dialects on the Day of Pentecost.

In the law [the OT] it is written, With [men of ] other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1 Cor 14:21,22).
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people [the Jews]. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. (Isa 28:11,12)

In spite of the miracle on the Day of Pentecost, Israel (as a whole) did not believe the Gospel. But this same gift of tongues was being manifested in the apostolic churches, and 1 Cor 12-14 was written TO CORRECT THE ABUSES of this gift, as well as teach us about the various gifts of the Spirit.
Why then no need for a translator on Pentecost, yet Paul maintained at Corinth there be a translator if it was the same phenomena?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
16,967
8,479
113
#85
Why then no need for a translator on Pentecost, yet Paul maintained at Corinth there be a translator if it was the same phenomena?
The answer is quite simple. The ones who were in Jerusalem from other lands heard what was said in their own native languages. So if you were from Arabia (for example) you would have heard Arabic spoken (Acts 2:11).

On the other hand the Corinthian church was a Greek-speaking church (Greek being the language of Greece and Macedonia, and Corinth being due West of Athens). Hence the need for a translator if you starting talking in Arabic and no one had a clue.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#86
The answer is quite simple. The ones who were in Jerusalem from other lands heard what was said in their own native languages. So if you were from Arabia (for example) you would have heard Arabic spoken (Acts 2:11).

On the other hand the Corinthian church was a Greek-speaking church (Greek being the language of Greece and Macedonia, and Corinth being due West of Athens). Hence the need for a translator if you starting talking in Arabic and no one had a clue.
Yes this is what I see as well.

So then it was not the same phenomena at Corinth that occurred like the one in Acts, at the church in Corinth there were a variety of languages and dialects being spoken, but no one was speaking a language they did not know.

I see nothing in the text that states they were speaking languages they had not learned.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
19,661
10,826
113
#87
Except that we are not talking about unbelievers.

The gift of supernaturally speaking in a foreign language (which had never been learned by the speaker) was evidence that God the Holy Spirit was empowering that person. This was a sign to unbelieving Jews that the Gospel was from God. And that is why the apostles and disciples were enabled to speak in approximately 15 languages and dialects on the Day of Pentecost.

In the law [the OT] it is written, With [men of ] other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1 Cor 14:21,22).
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people [the Jews]. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. (Isa 28:11,12)

In spite of the miracle on the Day of Pentecost, Israel (as a whole) did not believe the Gospel. But this same gift of tongues was being manifested in the apostolic churches, and 1 Cor 12-14 was written TO CORRECT THE ABUSES of this gift, as well as teach us about the various gifts of the Spirit.
I agree with everything you've written here. However, this is not what you were claiming in your earlier post. While Paul's instructions regarding "languages" are definitely applicable to the use of "foreign" languages in a local assembly, the context is the spiritual gift of speaking in unlearned languages.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
19,661
10,826
113
#88
Yes this is what I see as well.

So then it was not the same phenomena at Corinth that occurred like the one in Acts, at the church in Corinth there were a variety of languages and dialects being spoken, but no one was speaking a language they did not know.

I see nothing in the text that states they were speaking languages they had not learned.
Have a closer look at Acts 2:4. These were unlearned fishermen and people from the lower societal strata. Where would they have learned multiple dialects of foreign lands?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#89
Have a closer look at Acts 2:4. These were unlearned fishermen and people from the lower societal strata. Where would they have learned multiple dialects of foreign lands?
Mr. Dino, I was referring to the church at Corinth, I agree that Acts 2:4 is the miraculous type :) unlike the instruction for the Church at Corinth.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
16,967
8,479
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#90
I see nothing in the text that states they were speaking languages they had not learned.
That fact that the gift of languages was A SUPERNATURAL GIFT should make it obvious that it was NOT a learned language.

If you had never heard or been taught Chinese, and you suddenly started speaking fluently in Mandarin, that would certainly be a miracle. And that is what the gift of tongues was all about.
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
1,796
1,181
113
#91
I think that anyone that is against tongues should ask for interpretations. There are few times when it's felt sincerely "off". There are times when I don't know what to say/pray and I just "breath" and ask the Lord to know me. Corporately I'm skeptical.

I am VERY leery of making a judgement against it. I can say I've been much more impacted (to my knowledge) by words that I understand. There are certainly times where I would like to be clandestine and so it appears to have utility but it feels like a bypass of my own will. Not that one's will should be tantamount but it has been my experience that the Lord wants us to couple with him in spirit and in truth.

Other languages, sure. It takes the Spirit to understand what someone is "saying" regardless of whether you know that "Perro" is dog in spanish. To KNOW what their language means in context is something I find I have to lean on him for, even in English.

Consider someone that is distraught and is speaking English but isn't making any sense really. That's where this particular thing comes in for me personally, interpreting what they are saying not through myself.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#92
That fact that the gift of languages was A SUPERNATURAL GIFT should make it obvious that it was NOT a learned language.

If you had never heard or been taught Chinese, and you suddenly started speaking fluently in Mandarin, that would certainly be a miracle. And that is what the gift of tongues was all about.
Only in Acts not at Corinth.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,529
113
#93
The letter to Corinth was about spoken earthly languages/dialects and dealing with the various these languages so that the meetings were held in an orderly fashion.

Not all the gifts Paul was addressing were of the miraculous type, 1 Cor 12: 28 makes this clear.
The appearance of tongues in Acts 2 was unique in that the tongue seen as fire was heard in native languages by those present. Tongues are not described as appearing as fire anyplace else in scripture. Again Acts 2 is the only record of the words spoken being heard in the native language of those present. I wonder why?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#94
The appearance of tongues in Acts 2 was unique in that the tongue seen as fire was heard in native languages by those present. Tongues are not described as appearing as fire anyplace else in scripture. Again Acts 2 is the only record of the words spoken being heard in the native language of those present. I wonder why?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Exactly, Thank you!
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
19,661
10,826
113
#95
How do you know that is true? Is that not what occurred in Act 2 at Pentecost? Show me that is not what happened at Corinth?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Wow...

I know it is true because I have met people who are believers in other faiths, therefore not Christ, and they speak other languages.

I know that is NOT (entirely) what Paul was addressing at Corinth, because he listed "speaking in tongues" among the gifts of the Spirit, alongside prophecy, miracles, healing, and distinguishing between spirits.

As for Acts 2, they spoke in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. They were NOT speaking learned languages.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#96
Wow...

I know it is true because I have met people who are believers in other faiths, therefore not Christ, and they speak other languages.

I know that is NOT (entirely) what Paul was addressing at Corinth, because he listed "speaking in tongues" among the gifts of the Spirit, alongside prophecy, miracles, healing, and distinguishing between spirits.

As for Acts 2, they spoke in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. They were NOT speaking learned languages.
And steermanship and helps?

Some gifts are not miraculous.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#97
I agree with everything you've written here. However, this is not what you were claiming in your earlier post. While Paul's instructions regarding "languages" are definitely applicable to the use of "foreign" languages in a local assembly, the context is the spiritual gift of speaking in unlearned languages.
Why would someone speak in an unlearned language and then have a translator to translate?

Perhaps he/she was speaking his native language/dialect that was not known by others in the congregation and therefore needed a translator and if there was no translator he/she just just pray to himself and God.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,529
113
#98
Wow...

I know it is true because I have met people who are believers in other faiths, therefore not Christ, and they speak other languages.

I know that is NOT (entirely) what Paul was addressing at Corinth, because he listed "speaking in tongues" among the gifts of the Spirit, alongside prophecy, miracles, healing, and distinguishing between spirits.

As for Acts 2, they spoke in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. They were NOT speaking learned languages.
Highly speculative assumption. Why do you assume they were not languages common to other parts of Asia? Those who witnessed the events at Pentecost heard in known languages.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
19,661
10,826
113
#99
Highly speculative assumption. Why do you assume they were not languages common to other parts of Asia? Those who witnessed the events at Pentecost heard in known languages.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
It's not speculative at all, and I said nothing about which languages they were. The Scripture clearly states, "They were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance." Those who were present heard in languages that they, the hearers from surrounding regions, knew. They marveled because the speakers were all Galileans. Why? Most likely because Galileans would not likely have learned all the other languages or dialects. If all that was happening was that the disciples spoke in languages they already knew, why did the people marvel?