The rapture and "the tribulation"

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Are we currently in Daniel's 70th Week Commonly Referred to as "the tribulation?"

  • Yes

    Votes: 1 5.0%
  • No

    Votes: 14 70.0%
  • I think we are very close

    Votes: 4 20.0%
  • Not sure

    Votes: 1 5.0%

  • Total voters
    20
Jul 28, 2021
1,226
406
83
#41
Just wanted to pick up where I left off yesterday. Matthew 24:29-31 says:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Okay, this is the rapture, and it says this will happen "after the tribulation." Compare 1 Thessalonians 4:16:

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."

This is also the rapture. Note the similarities: "angels" and "voice of an archangel"; "loud trumpet call" and "sound of the trumpet."

Another reason this is clearly the rapture is because in this scenario Christ is calling His elect to Himself. The second coming is totally different. See Revelation 19:11-14:

"Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses."

Here He's riding a white horse and returning with his elect—who are arrayed in fine linen, white and pure.
The elect are gathered from one end of heaven to the other. Not one end of earth to the other.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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#42
Now where does this event fit into your schema? Revelation 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.
The rapture occurs at the end of Revelation 14 (vv. 14-16). This is before the events starting in ch. 15 and into ch.16—the outpouring of God's wrath, or the "hour of trial." So yes, the rapture rescues believers from the hour of trial. The entire seven years of the tribulation is a week, not an hour.

But there will be those during this time who won't accept the mark or worship the beast. That's why it's called an hour of trial, to "test the inhabitants of the earth."

"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."—Revelation 20:4

This can't be the church because they've already been raptured. These are those who didn't take the mark or worship the beast during the hour of trial. They partake in the first resurrection (v. 5).
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
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#43
The rapture occurs at the end of Revelation 14 (vv. 14-16). This is before the events starting in ch. 15 and into ch.16—the outpouring of God's wrath, or the "hour of trial." So yes, the rapture rescues believers from the hour of trial. The entire seven years of the tribulation is a week, not an hour.

But there will be those during this time who won't accept the mark or worship the beast. That's why it's called an hour of trial, to "test the inhabitants of the earth."

"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."—Revelation 20:4

This can't be the church because they've already been raptured. These are those who didn't take the mark or worship the beast during the hour of trial. They partake in the first resurrection (v. 5).
If it isn't the church who is it? Are they believers?
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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#44
The elect are gathered from one end of heaven to the other. Not one end of earth to the other.
It says: "from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." The four winds are the four directions on earth; the four winds, four directions, four quarters, etc.

One end of heaven to the other means the whole world. The Greek ouranōn means "visible sky" or "atmosphere." It's not the talking about the third heaven where the Lord is.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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#45
If it isn't the church who is it? Are they believers?
lol, okay. I'm not going to be drawn into a question and answer. If you have something to say just say it and I'll do the same. :)
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
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#46
lol, okay. I'm not going to be drawn into a question and answer. If you have something to say just say it and I'll do the same. :)
They are believers, they were left behind to go through the hour of trial. The fifth seal is a very clear reference to the hour of trial.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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#47
I don't know what I'd call them; believers might be appropriate. They seem to be a group of people who refuse to worship the beast or take his mark. They'd have to have a very compelling reason.
 
Jun 9, 2021
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#48
They are believers, they were left behind to go through the hour of trial. The fifth seal is a very clear reference to the hour of trial.
Which makes Revelation 16:15 more viable.

The Second Coming [just after Verse 1-14 of God's Wrath]
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

And then following the Second Coming
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
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#50
I don't know what I'd call them; believers might be appropriate. They seem to be a group of people who refuse to worship the beast or take his mark. They'd have to have a very compelling reason.
Revelation 5:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.

They were slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony they had, they refer to Jesus as "the sovereign Lord", they are given a white robe just as those who are raptured, and these are the ones who were killed before the seal was opened, martyred during the last 2,000 years, they are then told to wait until their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters were also killed just as they were.

So the ones killed in the tribulation are brother and sisters of the martyrs, they are fellow servants of them. For example, the 12 apostles were martyred. Brothers and sisters of the 12 apostles, fellow servants of the apostles, they call Jesus Lord.

So these are believers and there is no way to say there is some greater tribulation yet to come, once you are killed there is nothing more the enemy can do, no greater tribulation after that.
 
Jun 9, 2021
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#51
So these are believers and there is no way to say there is some greater tribulation yet to come, once you are killed there is nothing more the enemy can do, no greater tribulation after that.
Maybe these are the ones who are allowed to see certain final Events and be Testimony to what happened, in some sort of way.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#52
Just wanted to pick up where I left off yesterday. Matthew 24:29-31 says:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Okay, this is the rapture, and it says this will happen "after the tribulation." Compare 1 Thessalonians 4:16:

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."
Hi ResidentAlien,

Interpreting Matt.24:29-31 as representing the gathering of the church is an on-going error, as this is referring to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. While it is true that clouds and a trumpet are mentioned just as in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, they are two different events. In Matt.24:31, when the Lord sends out His angels, they will be gathering the righteous who will have made it alive through the entire period of God's wrath. When the Lord descends into the atmosphere to gather His church, angels do not gather us, but the dead are raised immortal and glorified and then those in Christ who are still alive are changed and caught up.

Matt.24:30-31 is synonymous with the parable in Matt.13:24-30, 36-43, where at the end of the age the angels will go throughout the earth and first gather the weeds/wicked and then they will gather the wheat/righteous. Again, these are living people who will have made it alive through the period of God's wrath that the angels will be gathering. Those righteous who are gathered are those who will enter into the millennial kingdom and will repopulate the earth.

It is also important to not pigeonhole the words clouds and trumpet here, as though they could not be present at both events.

The other major problem with your interpretation, is that it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God, which we are not appointed to suffer. You would have the church punished right alone with the wicked.

This is also the rapture. Note the similarities: "angels" and "voice of an archangel"; "loud trumpet call" and "sound of the trumpet."
1 Thess.4:16 has the "voice of an archangel" which is in the singular. Where in Matt.24:31 the Lord sends out "His angels" which is in the plural, i.e. many angels.

Another reason this is clearly the rapture is because in this scenario Christ is calling His elect to Himself. The second coming is totally different. See Revelation 19:11-14:

"Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses."

Here He's riding a white horse and returning with his elect—who are arrayed in fine linen, white and pure.
Revelation is also referring to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and is just a more detailed account providing other characteristics. If you will notice in that same chapter that you are quoting in Rev.19:6-8, the bride/church is attending the wedding of the Lamb and is receiving her fine linen, white and clean. Then in V.14 the armies in heaven, which is the bride, are wearing the same fine linen and following the Lord out of heaven on white horses as He descends to the earth to end the age. This demonstrates that the bride/church would already have to be in heaven in order to follow the Lord out of heaven.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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#53
Just wanted to pick up where I left off yesterday. Matthew 24:29-31 says:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Okay, this is the rapture, and it says this will happen "after the tribulation." Compare 1 Thessalonians 4:16:
Correct.

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."

This is also the rapture.
That isn't rapture. It is the same timeframe but that verse is speaking of the dead in Christ not the rapture of the living saints.



Another reason this is clearly the rapture is because in this scenario Christ is calling His elect to Himself. The second coming is totally different. See Revelation 19:11-14:

"Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses."

Here He's riding a white horse and returning with his elect—who are arrayed in fine linen, white and pure.
Correct.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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#54
What about the parable of the ten virgins where some are not ready with lamps filled with oil and are told to go buy the oil from the two witnesses?
The two witnesses are not mentioned nor do the foolish buy anything from them.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
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#55
The two witnesses are not mentioned nor do the foolish buy anything from them.
9 “‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’

10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

These foolish virgins go to buy oil from someone after the other virgins were raptured. The only people I know that sell oil to believers during the tribulation are the two witnesses in Zechariah.

Zechariah 4:
11 Then I asked the angel, “What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?”

12 Again I asked him, “What are these two olive branches beside the two gold pipes that pour out golden oil?”

13 He replied, “Do you not know what these are?”

“No, my lord,” I said.

14 So he said, “These are the two who are anointed to[b] serve the Lord of all the earth.”
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#56
Correct.

ResidentAlien said:
"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."

This is also the rapture.
======================

ewq1938 said:
That isn't rapture. It is the same timeframe but that verse is speaking of the dead in Christ not the rapture of the living saints.
Awatukee said:
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."

Yes, it is the gathering of the church (rapture). In the event above the dead in Christ rise first, then immediately following that, those still alive in Christ will be changed and caught up with those who will have just been resurrected to meet the Lord in the air.

The event of the dead resurrecting and the living believers being changed and caught up is a part of the same event of the church being gathered from the earth which will happen so quickly that it will almost be simultaneous.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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#57
9 “‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’

10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

These foolish virgins go to buy oil from someone after the other virgins were raptured. The only people I know that sell oil to believers during the tribulation are the two witnesses in Zechariah.


They don't sell oil, and especially don't after midnight to foolish people. The foolish will go to bad people for that oil and even then it will do them no good.
 
Jul 28, 2021
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#58
They don't sell oil, and especially don't after midnight to foolish people. The foolish will go to bad people for that oil and even then it will do them no good.
What is the purpose of this exchange? Nobody here will change anyone's mind. It seems futile and just a time-killer.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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#59
What is the purpose of this exchange? Nobody here will change anyone's mind. It seems futile and just a time-killer.
Sometimes ppl do change their minds, but it can take awhile usually. It can often benefit your own self, strengthening your own position with new info etc. It's also good exercise to discuss differences using calm and friendly language. Some people cannot have a discussion without throwing insults and ad hominems at the other side.
 

ZNP

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Sep 14, 2020
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#60
They don't sell oil, and especially don't after midnight to foolish people. The foolish will go to bad people for that oil and even then it will do them no good.
Wow, not familiar with those verses, where did you find that?

Foolish virgins are "bad people"? Who makes that judgement? If the oil will do them no good then why do we have the two witnesses, the two olive trees during the tribulation?