The Rapture explained in two minutes

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
59
48
In order to even begin to understand Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 one has to recognize that Jesus described TWO historic events, one that happened around 70ad, and the other will happen at the end of this age. The description of the two events is somewhat mixed together, the abomination of desolation happened around 70ad, now there may be something similar to it at the end of the age(forced worship of statue of Beast?). The Jews being told to run for the mountains and get out of Jerusalem was definitely 70ad, but again there may be something somewhat similar to it at the end of the age. At any rate, one needs to keep in mind that there were things that had to happen in that generation and they did happen in that generation, while other things are for the end of the age. Part of what Jesus described has happened(an historic fact) and part of what Jesus taught is yet in the future.
You speak out both sides of your mouth....Show us, Samuel where the 'Abomination of Desolate' happened in 70AD. Give us the scripture or historical references that it happened. No not your gut feeling.

There are all kinds of Historical references about the 70 AD,,, Please find it for us,,,I have missed it some where among the hundred of docs I have studied. Plus, you still have the Bible, I may have missed it there as well.

Now if you will, PLEASE, add the definition of the 'Abomination of Desolate' as it is being used in the references you give us.

Thanks

 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
59
48
They are all 'Judgment'; they are not all 'Wrath'. There is a difference...

:)
Show me,,,,,, How do you connect the God's Judgment and God's Wrath as the same.....

I am sure you have all kinds of info to back you statement up besides your gut feeling.
 
Dec 2, 2016
1,652
26
0
Hi Blade: The original abomination of desolation that occurred before Christ birth, involved an evil man who by force put a stop to the Jewish religion of Temple worship, Jesus said that the abomination of desolation would occur in that generation, in that generation an evil man by force put a stop to the Jewish religion of Temple worship. Luke 21 tells us that the abomination of desolation in Matt 24 and Mark 13, was what the Romans under Titus did to Jerusalem and the Temple in 70ad. Something similar may also happen at the end of the age, however the abomination of desolation, along with the warning to flee Judea, has most definitely happened around 70ad.
 
G

GaryA

Guest
The two Witnesses DO NOT bring anything on.
"Then what do you suppose this is talking about...???"


Revelation 11:

[SUP]3[/SUP] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
.
.
.

[SUP]6[/SUP]
These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.


:)
 
G

GaryA

Guest
Uh, OK. For me it was just mass confusion. Who are some 'noted teachers' who believe all this stuff? Maybe I didn't look it over carefully. Too much info too quickly, accompanied by a lot of "yelling" and emoting. You lost me at "you're all wrong!!!!".

Now that I'm glancing at some of this stuff..."Jesus was crucified in the middle of the 70th Week"?? First of all, it's a bare assertion. You're certainly losing my attention. You needed to stop right there and commence some very, very fancy explaining. Just my two cents.

Who believes that? Who considers this "common knowledge"??

The 70th Week ended 3.5 years after His resurrection??? Bro, there is one person on the planet who believes that, as far as I know. What key event is supposed to have happened, exactly 3.5 years after Jesus' resurrection? Come on, Gary. Give us a break.
Are you really interested in understanding my perspective, or are you just wanting something else to take pot shots at...?

Forgive me if I am wrong, but somehow I think it is the latter...

:(
 
G

GaryA

Guest
Why do people start out saying this:

The rapture has nothing to do with salvation.
And, then end up saying this:

Rem Galatians tells us for those who willingly worship the other Gospel LOSE their Salvation.

I'll try not to me mean her, but I really do hope you lose a bunch of sleep of this last statement. If you don't you have blown it off as a lie and have continued your "other gospel" way. If that is the case, Good luck?
When, it is not the gospel we are talking about?

What "other" gospel?

Why would anyone equate a difference of an eschatological view to "another" gospel?

To me -- when Jesus returns -- whether you are 'pre-trib', 'mid-trib', 'post-trib', 'pre-wrath', [ or whatever ] --- as long as you have real faith in God / Christ - you will be raptured with all the rest...

Your eschatological view does not determine your salvation; real faith does.

Don't be so absurd as to tell someone [ in effect ] that their eschatological view will send them to hell.

"That is not the way it works..."

Worse-case-scenario --- someone looses faith ( i.e. - "falls away" ) when they find themselves facing "real" tribulation and [ possibly ] death instead of their expectation of being "wisked away" by Jesus "before all the trouble starts"...

And my point being --- if anyone "runs the greater risk" of loosing salvation because of their eschatological view -- it would surely have to be someone with a 'pre-trib' view.

Post-trib folks already know that they may one day have to face death for not worshiping the beast...



And, how does it matter in the least when the rapture occurs if everyone who is not saved dies by the end of the 'Wrath of God'...???

There would STILL be no one to go into the millennium - right?

:)
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
3,799
1,181
113
Australia
Have you ever wanted to know exactly what to look for in the 'end times'?

Well, so did Peter, James, John and Andrew. So they asked Jesus what to look for in the end times.

Jesus told them the first specific event they should look for is...the Abomination of Desolation...which is when the world leader (the "Antichrist") springs into action and kicks things of with a destruction of Jerusalem and a holocaust against Jewish people living in that area.

Jesus clarified that He did not know when these events would take place ("no one knows the day or the hour...but on the Father in heaven")...

...therefore, He was instructing Peter, James, John (etc.) to live with an expectation of this event, the Abomination of Desolation...

...which is immediately followed by a period of Great Tribulation...followed by the glorious "Gathering" of the believers, in which we are rescued from this world just in time for god's great day of wrath.

The point I would make is...that if Peter, James and John (the first Christians and the first Christian leaders) lived with this expectation...then so should all the rest of the Christians throughout the the Christian era...YOU AND I!!!

The question I have asked the various supporters of the alleged (and non-existent) "PreTrib" rapture is this:
Explaned in two minutes yer but your explanation of various verses. i noticed that you didn't quote the bible anywhere (you did use parts of verses here and there). Thats how false doctrines are created by useing parts of the bible out of context or twisted to mean something else.
I'll quote you,
"Jesus told them the first specific event they should look for is...the Abomination of Desolation...which is when the world leader (the "Antichrist") springs into action and kicks things of with a destruction of Jerusalem and a holocaust against Jewish people living in that area."
The Abomination of Desolation, the "Antichrist", and whether it will be literal Jerusalem and literal Jews can all be debated which would change the meaning greatly. I'm not going to debate them but your foundation may be wrong which would mean the result is wrong.
You presume you have the explanation right but the Bible as a whole with ALL it has to say, tells me you are wrong. .
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
3,799
1,181
113
Australia


Now if you will, PLEASE, add the definition of the 'Abomination of Desolate' as it is being used in the references you give us.

Thanks

some believe they know the identity of the abomination of desolation. Some teach that this prophecy was fulfilled when Antiochus Epiphanes interrupted the temple sacrifices between 168 and 165 B.C. The abomination they point to is the pig Antiochus had offered on the altar in the temple complex. Others believe the abomination of desolation refers to a future time when an atheistic anti-christ will overthrow the temple in Jerusalem and use it as his throne. Then there are those who believe the abomination of desolation is the Roman standards which were worshiped in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. at the time of its destruction by Titus.

Jesus tells us that our study of the abomination of desolation should focus on the book of Daniel (Matt 24:15). When one makes a careful study of this book, he discovers that the abomination of desolation can be divided into three parts. These parts are: the abomination of desolation in Daniel's day (involving the first temple); the abomination of desolation in Jesus' day (involving the second temple); and finally the abomination of desolation in the time of the end (involving the whole Christian church). The issues that come into play in the abomination of desolation as treated in the book of Daniel remain consistent in each of its three phases. Therefore they are types, or examples, of each other.

[h=2]The First Abomination[/h]
The key that unlocks the m
ystery of this prophetic event is found in the first two verses of Daniel. "In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and beseiged it. And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with part of the vessels of the house of God: which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the vessels into the treasure house of his god" (Dan 1:1,2). In these two short sentences Daniel provides a concise historical background to the remainder of the book which follows.

Further study of Daniel's prologue reveals the abomination of desolation was existent in his time and led to Jerusalem's captivity. The Chronicler reveals the reason the Jewish kings fell to Babylon. "Jehoiakim was twenty and five years old when he began to reign... and he did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord his God." It was because of Jehoiakim's iniquitous life that God allowed him to be taken captive.

The significant feature of this is that Jehoiakim's evil deeds are described this way: "Now the rest of the acts of Jehoiakim, and his abominations which he did, and that which was found in him, behold, they are written in the book of the kings of Israel and Judah: and Jehoiachin his son reigned in his stead" (2 Chro 36:5-8). It was specifically the abominations of Jehoiakim that led him and his city to forfeit God's protection and thus fall to Nebuchadnezzar.

Unfortunately Jehoiachin, his son, didn't do much better. Scripture tells us he also did "that which was evil in the sight of the Lord." Consequently he too was taken captive to Babylon, and "Zedekiah his brother" was placed as king over Judah and Jerusalem (v. 9-11).

The Bible goes on to record that not only did Zedekiah turn out to be just as evil as his two predecessors, but "moreover all the chief of the priests, and the people, transgressed very much after all the abominations of the heathen" (v. 12-14). God's political and religious leaders, as well as the people, adopted heathen ways as their own. They did this at the expense of God's revealed truth. Notice where these abominations were committed: the people "transgressed very much after all the abominations of the heathen; and polluted the house of the Lord which he had hallowed in Jerusalem" (v. 14). These abominations were standing in God's consecrated holy place, the "house of the Lord." The religious leaders of the day had purposefully led the people to adopt heathen worship practices and incorporated them into their worship of God. In substituting for God's commandments the vain notions of men, the leaders of God's heritage provoked his wrath. The people rejected God's calls to repentance and reformation and were left to reap the consequences. "Therefore, he brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary" (v. 17).

This judgment was felt not only in the spilling of the blood, but in the complete destruction of the city and sanctuary (v. 19). This all was done "To fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath to fulfill threescore and ten years (70 years)" (v. 21). The result of God's people practicing the religious abominations of the heathen was the desolation of their land, city and sanctuary.

[h=2]Breaking The Sabbath Brought Desolation[/h]
Just what were these abominations that resulted in such desolation? Since this was all done "To fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah," then Jeremiah should be able to tell us what substitutions in worship had been made. In Jeremiah 17 the prophet is told to stand in the gate of the people and prophesy. Under a divine mandate, Jeremiah told the people that if they would honor God's seventh-day Sabbath their city would remain forever, and that this faithful obedience would lead them into such a relationship with Himself that they would be used to convert the surrounding heathen nations (ch. 17:19-26).

On the other hand, if they would not keep the Sabbath day holy God would allow their city to be desolated. "But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the Sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day; then I will kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched" (v. 27).

Sadly, the Jews chose to continue breaking God's Sabbath and thus inaugurated their own destruction and captivity. The abomination that led to their desolation was breaking the Sabbath. Thus, we see the significance of 2 Chron 36:21: "To fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her Sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept Sabbath."

Ezekiel, who lived during the same time, also tells us about the abominations God's people were practicing in the holy place. In Ezekiel 8, the prophet was brought by vision to the door of the inner gate. God proceeded to show his servant the progressively greater outrages His people were committing. In verses 5 and 6 He speaks of an image that provoked Him to jealousy. In an escalation of outrage, unclean beasts had been brought into the house of God, women were weeping for Tammuz and the greatest abomination of all was twenty-five men standing in God's holy place "with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east" (Eze 8:16).

God had instructed the Jews to erect the temple in a manner that would discourage the imitation of their heathen neighbors in sun worship. The ark of the covenant, the very focal point of the Jews' worship, was placed at the western end of the tabernacle. Thus the children of Israel would face the west, their backs to the rising sun, when they worshipped the true God. Yet the entrance of paganism among God's people had grown to such proportions that Judah's leading men were actually turning their backs on the temple of God. This was a significant act of apostasy.

Both Ezekiel and Jeremiah list the heathen practices that had been incorporated into the worship of God. Whether it was breaking the second commandment by idol worship, adoring unclean beasts, worshipping Tammuz, the mythological god of the pagans, or breaking God's holy Sabbath and worshiping the sun on the day consecrated to it, these practices all were classed by God as abominations. It was because the Jews persisted in justifying their own course and continued in these heathen customs that God permitted the desolation of their city.

Daniel himself agrees that it was the sins committed by God's people that caused their desolation. "O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and the iniquities of our fathers.... cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate.... open thy eyes, and behold our desolations..." (Daniel 9:16-18). It is important to note that the abominations were done by the apostate people of God. This in turn resulted in their forfeiture of God's protection and called down His judgments and chastisement in their desolation. This scenario of the abomination of desolation in Daniel's day, involving the first Jewish temple period, prefigures the two other abominations of desolation prophesied in Daniel. The next one we shall consider is the one that concerns the second Jewish temple period.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
3,799
1,181
113
Australia
[h=2]The Second Temple Desolated[/h]
After their release from Babylonian captivity and rebuilding the city and temple, the Jewish leaders erected a mountain of rules and regulations designed to protect them from repeating the sins that had led to their bondage. The fourth commandment's seventh-day Sabbath became a special object of amendment. The Jews reasoned that since it was transgression of the Sabbath that led to their captivity, they needed to define in minute detail how the Sabbath should be kept.

Over 500 rules concerning Sabbathkeeping eventually resulted. Some of these Sabbath laws were as ridiculous as this: one could not leave an egg in the sun on the Sabbath because the sun might cook it, and cooking on the Sabbath was a violation of the fourth commandment. Of course, this only resulted in a system of pure legalism. At last the people began to believe that favor with God depended on how well they obeyed the traditions of their elders.

Ultimately the people were led full circle to disobedience again. Jesus comments that in spite of their apparent religiosity they were still breaking God's law even as their forefathers had during Isaiah's and Daniel's day. "Well hath Isaiah prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoreth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men... full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition... making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered" (Mark 6:-13). Once again the people found themselves immersed in vain and rebellious worship.

Even though their apostasy expressed itself in legalism instead of laxness, it was still based on the same principle upon which all pagan religions are based - that man can save himself by his own works. Jesus, like Jeremiah of old, rebuked this religious system and called it an abomination. "Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God" (Luke 16:15).

Jesus expressed His displeasure for their abominations on numerous occasions. Most notable were the two times He cleansed the temple. On these times He expressed His anger at the desecration of His holy place. The controversy between Jesus and the Jews steamed, boiled and spewed over religion. The religious leaders hated Him because He didn't look like the Messiah, He didn't respect their traditions and most notably He didn't keep the Sabbath in the manner they thought it should be kept. This latter issue infuriated the Jews and led them to seek Jesus' death (See John 5:10-16, Matt 12:1-4, Mark 3:1-6).

In spite of the religious leaders' resistance, Jesus sought time and again to bring them to repentance and reformation. Often He reproved them for their erroneous ways and pointed the way to true and undefiled religion that is of great price in the sight of God. Yet they hardened their hearts and beat back the waves of God's mercy.

As Jesus entered Jerusalem for the last time, His prophetic eye saw the consequences of their constant rebellion. With a grief-stricken heart and tears coursing down His cheeks, He prophesied the coming doom of the city: "For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side and shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation" (Luke 19:41-44).

After teaching in the temple for several days, Jesus left its precincts for the last time. Again He was choked with anguish as He saw the ultimate result of His people's apostasy. He exclaimed, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings and ye would not! Behold your house is left unto you desolate" (Matt 23:37,38).

On both these occasions Jesus placed the guilt upon the people by stating, "they knew not the time of their visitation" and "ye would not." As a result of not responding to God's call to turn from their abominations, their temple was to be desolated. This prophecy was fulfilled in 70 A.D. when the Roman armies of Titus burned the temple to the ground. This second desolation of the temple perfectly paralleled its first destruction. On both occasions the abominations were done by the apostate people of God and the desolation was an act of judgment performed by a heathen army.

This desolation of Jerusalem was prophesied by Daniel to come as a result of the people rejecting Messiah the prince. A careful study of Dan 9:25-27 will show this to be the case. In verse 25 Messiah is promised to Israel and the city's restoration is also predicted. But then, ominously, all is prophesied for doom again. Verse 26 speaks of Messiah being killed by His own people and of how this act would cause their city and sanctuary to be desolated once again.

As Daniel heard Gabriel relay this prophecy, it was to his mind a replay of what he had seen happen to the Jerusalem of his day. The prophecy indicated that history would repeat itself, and this is exactly what happened. The abominations that God's people committed resulted, in both 586 B.C. and 70 A.D., in the destruction of their sanctuary and city -- first by Nebuchadnezzar, then by Titus.

Because Israel rejected the Messiah they lost their place as God's favored people. Jesus predicted this would take place by saying, "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof" (Matt 21:43). Israel forfeited their franchise of the gospel by their own obstinate sin.

Who would be the new nation to receive the kingdom of God and bring forth the fruits thereof? The Bible provides a clear and concise answer in the apostle Peter's letter to the Gentile converts who "In time past were not a people, but are now the people of God." Of the converts to Christianity, the new people of God, he further says, "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light" (1 Pet 2:9-10).

In the new dispensation God bestows upon the converted Christians all the privileges and promises that had been made to the literal seed of Abraham (see Gal 3:26-29). Now converted Christians assume the role of Israel, and the Christian church absorbs the status of the temple or sanctuary of God. The Scriptures make this abundantly clear in such texts as Romans 2;28,29; Eph 2:11-13, 19-22; and 1 Pet 2:5.

[h=2]The Final Desolation[/h]
It is in the light of this New Testament principle of spiritual Israel that Daniel speaks of the abomination of desolation the third and final time. These references can be found in Dan 8:13, 11:31 and 21:11. Discerning students of prophetic history realize that these verses predict the formation and ascension of power by the Papacy. It is an indisputable fact of history that the Papacy brought into the Christian church the very same practices of paganism for which ancient Jerusalem was destroyed. One has to do only a little study to see how image worship, Tammuz worship, and sun worship were introduced to Christianity during the Dark Ages. Many of these abominations are still with us in the form of statues, candles for the saints, rosary beads, Easter sunrise services and Sunday worship. (baptized paganism).

By no means does the papal apostasy exonerate Protestantism. Most Protestant churches accede to the apostasy by continuing the practice of abominations that have their roots firmly fixed in ancient pagan religions, which were established to destroy God's truth. Both Catholicism and Protestantism have fostered abominations in God's holy place, His church. The Christian church is mirroring literal Israel. We are repeating many of the same sins and will consequently reap the same punishment of desolation, unless we are willing to read the handwriting on the wall and flee from Babylon.

It is clear that the three occasions of abomination of desolation found in Daniel result from apostasy on the part of God's people,
When the churches have apostasized in their abominations to such a degree that God's protecting Spirit leaves the apostate churches, we may know that a time of trouble will be forthcoming.

If we study this prophecy carefully, we will find that each of its three fulfillments refers to a national apostasy by God's people that ends in their tragic destruction. We are now living in the time of the Christian church's final apostasy, which makes of none effect the commandments of God. We need to see that we are in the midst of fulfilling prophecy and keep our eyes open for the culmination of all things.

Our only sure protection against the abomination of desolation is to give our lives unreservedly to Jesus, loving others as He loves them and worshiping Him in the way that His word teaches. The greatest commandment is simply to love God with all our heart and soul and strength. If we have such love, it will be natural for us to do all things to please and honor Him. In return, He will see us safely through the desolation that will close this earth's history just before He comes again.
 
M

MattTooFor

Guest
Explaned in two minutes yer but your explanation of various verses. i noticed that you didn't quote the bible anywhere
You're stepping into the middle of an ongoing conversation. Here is the passage I have repeatedly pointed to:

Matthew 24: 15, 21, 29, 31 --

"...when you see [1] the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place...[2] then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will...but immediately [3] after the tribulation of those days...they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and [4] they will gather together His elect from the four winds..."

can all be debated
Debate to your heart's content. To me, Jesus' message to Peter, James and John was clear, simple, straightforward...such that a child could read through the text and understand it. My two cents.

I'm not going to debate them but your foundation may be wrong which would mean the result is wrong.
Don't understand what you mean. What "foundation"?

You presume you have the explanation right but the Bible as a whole with ALL it has to say, tells me you are wrong.
Again, I don't know what that statement means. (?) One of the major 'headlines' of the Bible is..."in this world you will have tribulation"...exactly what Jesus told Peter, James and John.
 
M

MattTooFor

Guest
Are you really interested in understanding my perspective, or are you just wanting something else to take pot shots at...?
Again, more of these strange questions of yours. Bro, this is a discussion board. Go ahead and discuss. Enough with these prerequisites of yours. What if YOU'RE not interested in my thoughts? After all, I had cited Rev. 11:3 in answer to your question...and you never got back.

If you keep your argument simple and concise and in bite-size two minute portions...maybe you'll keep my interest. You never know.

Again though, I don't know why you don't start your own thread. Too late now.

--------------

Anyway...you seem to be trying to argue away the cohesiveness of Matthew 24:15-31. But the three main events (the Abomination, the Great Trib, the Gathering) are inextricably stuck together:

Matthew 24: 15, 21, 29, 31 --


"...when you see [1] the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place...[2] then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will...but immediately [3] after the tribulation of those days...He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds...".

-------------

The Gathering happens immediately on the heels of the Great Tribulation. That is undeniable, it would seem.

And the Abomination of Desolation is the actual triggering event for the Great Tribulation:

"...THEN there will be great tribulation".


Therefore, the Great Tribulation cannot be somehow disconnected from the Abomination of Desolation...which you and a platoon of misguided souls here (IMO) want to remove thousands of years away somewhere- LOL. It can't be done.

The Gathering happens immediately on the heels of the Great Trib which happens immediately on the heels of the Abomination of Desolation.

--------------

Furthermore (to address one of your objections)...it is rather crystal clear from Jesus' words...that the tribulation which follows this Abomination...has an initial focus on the destruction of Jerusalem and surrounding areas, accompanied by a great holocaust...

...which is EXACTLY what Rev. 11 is referring to...a 42 month time span of "trampling" the "holy city".

That's 1260 days. But Jesus made clear, the time of Great Tribulation for believers is a DIFFERENT time span...something less than 1260 days...because He admits to not knowing the day or hour of the Gathering of the believers.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
3,799
1,181
113
Australia
You're stepping into the middle of an ongoing conversation. Here is the passage I have repeatedly pointed to:

Matthew 24: 15, 21, 29, 31 --

"...when you see [1] the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place...[2] then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will...but immediately [3] after the tribulation of those days...they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and [4] they will gather together His elect from the four winds..."

Debate to your heart's content. To me, Jesus' message to Peter, James and John was clear, simple, straightforward...such that a child could read through the text and understand it. My two cents.

Don't understand what you mean. What "foundation"?

Again, I don't know what that statement means. (?) One of the major 'headlines' of the Bible is..."in this world you will have tribulation"...exactly what Jesus told Peter, James and John.
So are you saying that from Matt 24:15-31 it is Post tribulation rapture?

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If that's your belief as far as the order goes, i agree. What i was saying about the foundation, If you build a doctrine on lies and theories that are twisted the result will be a doctrine that is wrong.





.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
Some teach that this prophecy was fulfilled when Antiochus Epiphanes interrupted the temple sacrifices between 168 and 165 B.C.
I've heard that... sounds like at least a partial fulfilment to me.
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
64
48
Hey guys, I found some stuff I did years ago. Matthew 24 verse 15 about the abomination of desolation and the reminder to remember Daniel. This spoken of here was not fully fulfilled, it still needs to be fulfilled and it has more then one fulfillment until it is totally fulfilled. Daniel 9:26 "And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed." Here it says the word for desolation is plural, so it can include Antiochus Epiphanies, Titus and Antichrist.

For those that believe that the prince to come in the Messiah the Prince or an anointed one, you need to rethink that, does Messiah the Prince's people destroy the city and sanctuary? No! Notice the prince to come is not an anointed one or it doesn't have the definite article in front of it, like Messiah the Prince. Evil is not anointed in God's economy.

I still need help with, the sign of the coming of the Son of Man and the end of the age, question I have.
 
Nov 19, 2016
502
23
0
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It is obviously saying that the prince to come will be from the people who overthrew Jerusalem in the first century,who is the Roman Empire,so the prince to come was not among them at that time.

Verse 27 continues talking of the prince to come,the man of sin,and will be the time God gives the world 7 years to have their way,and cause all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom,and he spreads his abominations on earth,the occult,witchcraft,honoring the God of forces,the power of nature as his God,and regarding no god.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

In Daniel 7,the Roman Empire does not lose their dominion until God puts them down,and they shall devour the whole earth,and make war against the saints,and God allows the man of sin to deceive all people who do not love Him,and then He will put the world down.

The ten horns come from the Roman Empire,the world split in to ten sections with a leader in each section,and the man of sin comes from the ten horns,so the prince to come,the man of sin,is from the Roman Empire.

Even though the Roman Empire has the dominion,it is all Gentile nations that are together,and the beast has power over all nations,kindreds,and tongues.

The prince to come has not came yet,and the Bible says that antichrist is to come,but that spirit was already working at that time.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
Hey guys, I found some stuff I did years ago. Matthew 24 verse 15 about the abomination of desolation and the reminder to remember Daniel. This spoken of here was not fully fulfilled, it still needs to be fulfilled and it has more then one fulfillment until it is totally fulfilled. Daniel 9:26 "And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed." Here it says the word for desolation is plural, so it can include Antiochus Epiphanies, Titus and Antichrist.

For those that believe that the prince to come is the Messiah the Prince or an anointed one, you need to rethink that, does Messiah the Prince's people destroy the city and sanctuary? No! Notice the prince to come is not an anointed one or it doesn't have the definite article in front of it, like Messiah the Prince. Evil is not anointed in God's economy.

I still need help with, the sign of the coming of the Son of Man and the end of the age, question I have.
Well said. The "He" in the verse would have to refer back to the last person mentioned, which is "the ruler" of Daniel 9:26. And I would also add that, Jesus cannot be the "He" referred to in Daniel 9:27 because it would also mean that Jesus would be the "He" who sets up the abomination in the holy place, which is blasphemy, a reeking stench that goes up before God.


I still need help with, the sign of the coming of the Son of Man and the end of the age, question I have.
What is the question?
 
Last edited:

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
59
48
"Then what do you suppose this is talking about...???"


Revelation 11:

[SUP]3[/SUP] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
.
.
.

[SUP]6[/SUP]
These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.


:)
The witnesses were there to preach to the people for 31/2 years. This would be the beginning half of the Tribulations. Your assumption was that they brought on the Tribulations which is just not true.

It seem you are putting words in God's mouth again. Real Bad habit you have there and it is very evident you do not care.