The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation

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Oct 23, 2018
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Yup. Look at the greek words and meaning. The hour/period of time of temptation He will watch over us and protect us as in preventing us from being tempted when the whole world is being tempted. That is the church that is like the church of Philadelphia. I can easily see this time as being now. When many churches are being tempted to follow the world and are succumbing to those temptations. But if you are as the Phili. church He will watch over us and guard us from such temptations/trials. The tribulation is something that happens to us and there is nothing to stop it, like saints being beheaded. That is happening now ( Isis ), earthquakes increasing, tornados increasing, hurricanes increasing, fires increasing, life on earth being destroyed increasingly and other increasing disasters. Nature against man, man against nature, man against man etc.
Yes there is a world wide hour/period of time of temptation/trial and the Great Tribulation like never seen before and never to be seen again. After all that ( 7seals ) comes the wrath of God. That we are not here for. You will notice that what Jesus says in matthew 24 matches the 7 seals.
Anyhow I'm out of here. The discussion is going in the same circles it always has and will continue to pop up on christian forms until the bulls come home for milking. Blessing to all and see you on another thread. BE READY is what the Lord says.
Right just be ready, we certainly don't want to b bickering when the Rapture/catching away happens! (whenever that may be)
 
Mar 12, 2015
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Do you know when the 'hour of trial' is?

Do you know when the 'hour of trial' is ?
Hello TabinRivCa,

The "hour of trial" is another designation referring to the time of God's wrath, also known as "the Day of the Lord" and the tribulation period.

Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.

In the letter to the church in Philadelphia, the Lord promises all believers who will have kept His word to endure patiently, that He will keep them out of that hour of trial, the time of God's wrath, the Day of the Lord, which is going to come upon all who dwell upon the whole world. That time of wrath will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Since the first seal initiates God's wrath, then the promise is to remove prior to that first seal being opened. This is supported by the fact that, after the end of chapter 3, the word "ekklesia" translated as "church" no longer appears in the narrative. After the church has been removed in Rev.4:1-2, the great tribulation saints are who is being referred to, which are those who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17.
 
Oct 23, 2018
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Hello TabinRivCa,

The "hour of trial" is another designation referring to the time of God's wrath, also known as "the Day of the Lord" and the tribulation period.

Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.

In the letter to the church in Philadelphia, the Lord promises all believers who will have kept His word to endure patiently, that He will keep them out of that hour of trial, the time of God's wrath, the Day of the Lord, which is going to come upon all who dwell upon the whole world. That time of wrath will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Since the first seal initiates God's wrath, then the promise is to remove prior to that first seal being opened. This is supported by the fact that, after the end of chapter 3, the word "ekklesia" translated as "church" no longer appears in the narrative. After the church has been removed in Rev.4:1-2, the great tribulation saints are who is being referred to, which are those who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17.
That's close to what I'm thinking, so we all should continue to 'be ready' all the time (so we don't get left behind?). Ty.
 
Nov 22, 2018
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Hello TabinRivCa,

The "hour of trial" is another designation referring to the time of God's wrath, also known as "the Day of the Lord" and the tribulation period.

Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.

In the letter to the church in Philadelphia, the Lord promises all believers who will have kept His word to endure patiently, that He will keep them out of that hour of trial, the time of God's wrath, the Day of the Lord, which is going to come upon all who dwell upon the whole world. That time of wrath will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Since the first seal initiates God's wrath, then the promise is to remove prior to that first seal being opened. This is supported by the fact that, after the end of chapter 3, the word "ekklesia" translated as "church" no longer appears in the narrative. After the church has been removed in Rev.4:1-2, the great tribulation saints are who is being referred to, which are those who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17.
Ok so you are declaring that "the first seal initiates God's wrath" and you declare that "God's wrath is also known as "the Day of the Lord" and the tribulation period".

Let's see if the Word of God agrees with your assumption:

Revelation 6:12-17 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood; (13) and the stars of the heaven fell unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she is shaken of a great wind. (14) And the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (15) And the kings of the earth, and the princes, and the chief captains, and the rich, and the strong, and every bondman and freeman, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains; (16) and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: (17) for the great day of their wrath is come; and who is able to stand?

Revelation 6:12-17 proves that it is not until the 6th seal is opened by Jesus that that the worldly are declaring "the great day of their wrath is come"!

The 6th seal causes a great earthquake, the sun becomes black, the moon becomes as blood, the stars fall to the earth, the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up, every mountain and island were moved out of their places, and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.

These same events are described as happening AFTER the tribulation in these three passages of the Olivet discourse:

Matthew 24:29-31 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (30) and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-27 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, (25) and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken. (26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. (27) And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 21:25-28 And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows; (26) men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. (27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (28) But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh.
 
Oct 23, 2018
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Ok so you are declaring that "the first seal initiates God's wrath" and you declare that "God's wrath is also known as "the Day of the Lord" and the tribulation period".

Let's see if the Word of God agrees with your assumption:

Revelation 6:12-17 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood; (13) and the stars of the heaven fell unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she is shaken of a great wind. (14) And the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (15) And the kings of the earth, and the princes, and the chief captains, and the rich, and the strong, and every bondman and freeman, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains; (16) and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: (17) for the great day of their wrath is come; and who is able to stand?

Revelation 6:12-17 proves that it is not until the 6th seal is opened by Jesus that that the worldly are declaring "the great day of their wrath is come"!

The 6th seal causes a great earthquake, the sun becomes black, the moon becomes as blood, the stars fall to the earth, the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up, every mountain and island were moved out of their places, and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.

These same events are described as happening AFTER the tribulation in these three passages of the Olivet discourse:

Matthew 24:29-31 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (30) and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-27 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, (25) and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken. (26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. (27) And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 21:25-28 And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows; (26) men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. (27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (28) But when these things begin to come to , look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh.
There's a 'TBN Classic' show where Jan & Paul Crouch are hosting a debate on the trib. Hal Lindsey took the pre-trib, Stuart McBirney took mid-trib and Doug Clark was left with the post-trib. Even these three learned guys got into a heated dispute and Hal Lindsey almost lost it. It was quite something After taking part in this thread I think I'm going back to the 80's to relive this program to hear their points. I'm going with just 'Be Ready' everyday! Amen.
 
Oct 6, 2011
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There's a 'TBN Classic' show where Jan & Paul Crouch are hosting a debate on the trib. Hal Lindsey took the pre-trib, Stuart McBirney took mid-trib and Doug Clark was left with the post-trib. Even these three learned guys got into a heated dispute and Hal Lindsey almost lost it. It was quite something After taking part in this thread I think I'm going back to the 80's to relive this program to hear their points. I'm going with just 'Be Ready' everyday! Amen.

That's lukewarm though maybe one of the links say that Jesus,angels nor man knew the day or hour but did later...
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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Yes I agree that the rapture happens at the last trump! But I do not see any trump mentioned at Jesus second coming that is recorded here:

Revelation 19:11-21 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (12) His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. (13) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (14) And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (15) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (16) And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. (17) And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; (18) That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. (19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. (20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (21) And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
The trumpet is recorded in the following scripture::

Matthew 24: KJV

29 "¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: {30} And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. {31} And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. {32} Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: {33} So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. {34} Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. {35} Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."
 

louis

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2017
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No.
The entire earth reaped AFTER the mil at the GWTJ.
Keep reading rev 15.
The harvest of 14 is DURING the gt

Yes sorta.
The point is,for 1thes 4 to be true,the dead MUST RISE FIRST.
That would make the dead rising AFTER the living in a post trib model.
Game
Set
Match.

Thread killer
"the earth was reaped" in Revelation 14:16 means no more people on earth.
Revelation 15 commences in retrospect with details as to why the earth will be reaped of its inhabitants, with the how depicted in Revelation 16.
Revelation 17 then also commences in retrospect with details on how the whore will meet her demise.

Revelation 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
 

louis

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2017
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It is not an individual but a corporate body!
The mystery of iniquity, is peoples complacence with their carnal nature.
When materially comfortable, the spirit comes in second.
There is a lot more complacency with our carnal inclinations today that there was in most of the past.
When the beast appears, his system will bring about days as in those of Noah, and Lot in Sodom and Gomorrah.
 
Nov 22, 2018
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The trumpet is recorded in the following scripture::

Matthew 24: KJV
29 "¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: {30} And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. {31} And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. {32} Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: {33} So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. {34} Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. {35} Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."
Matthew 24:29-31 is dealing with the rapture/resurrection not the second coming

The 7 seals that Jesus opens are for the tribulation to weed out the tares within His body by the end of the great harvest:

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 13:36-43 Then he left the multitudes, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Explain unto us the parable of the tares of the field. (37) And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; (38) and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; (39) and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels. (40) As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world. (41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity, (42) and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. (43) Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears, let him hear.

This parable of the wheat and tares speaking of angels being sent forth to harvest at the end of the world is further proven in Revelation 14:

Revelation 14:14-20 And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. (15) And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. (16) And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped. (17) And another angel came out from the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. (18) And another angel came out from the altar, he that hath power over fire; and he called with a great voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. (19) And the angel cast his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vintage of the earth, and cast it into the winepress, the great winepress, of the wrath of God. (20) And the winepress was trodden without the city, and there came out blood from the winepress, even unto the bridles of the horses, as far as a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

The 6th seal at the end of the tribulation marks the beginning of the year of wrath AFTER the 7 years of tribulation:

Revelation 6:12-17 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood; (13) and the stars of the heaven fell unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she is shaken of a great wind. (14) And the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (15) And the kings of the earth, and the princes, and the chief captains, and the rich, and the strong, and every bondman and freeman, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains; (16) and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: (17) for the great day of their wrath is come; and who is able to stand?

Revelation 6:12-17 proves that it is not until the 6th seal is opened by Jesus that that the worldly are declaring "the great day of their wrath is come"!

The 6th seal causes a great earthquake, the sun becomes black, the moon becomes as blood, the stars fall to the earth, the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up, every mountain and island were moved out of their places, and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.

These same events are described as happening AFTER the tribulation in these three passages of the Olivet discourse when we examine precept upon precept:

Matthew 24:29-31 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (30) and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-27 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, (25) and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken. (26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. (27) And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 21:25-28 And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows; (26) men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. (27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (28) But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh.

The second coming is described in Revelation 19 and has no mention of all the events listed above but does directly deal with the judgment through wrath that the wicked feared by pleading that "the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of their wrath is come; and who is able to stand?" in Revelation 6:16-17~ :

Revelation 19:11-21 And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (12) And his eyes are a flame of fire, and upon his head are many diadems; and he hath a name written which no one knoweth but he himself. (13) And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (14) And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure. (15) And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty. (16) And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. (17) And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid heaven, Come and be gathered together unto the great supper of God; (18) that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses and of them that sit thereon, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, and small and great. (19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat upon the horse, and against his army. (20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought the signs in his sight, wherewith he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshipped his image: they two were cast alive into the lake of fire that burneth with brimstone: (21) and the rest were killed with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, even the sword which came forth out of his mouth: and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
 
Dec 18, 2017
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From my reading of the Bible i do not agree.. The Rapture happens at the final trumpet.. And on the day of the second coming of Jesus a loud trumpet will sound...
Don't confuse the rapture with the 2nd advent of Christ...they are different and at different times.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

II Thessalonians 2:1
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Compare the Greek words for 'gather' and 'gathering. I heard a pretrib preacher not to long ago say the 'gathering' here refers to the rapture. I would imagine that is a standard interpretation among premillineal types. Would you agree with that?

I Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The Greek word 'parousia', which means 'presence' and which we generally take to be the 'second coming' is found in verse 15. I hear that in the old days, when the emperor or some important official came, the people would go outside and escourt him into the city with a big procession when he arrived. In this case, the living saints meet the Lord in the air.

Here, we see in I Thessalonians 4 about 'we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord'-- so the rapture hasn't taken place seven years before His coming. It happens at His coming, his parousia

In I Thessalonians 2:8, we read:
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

So we see the rapture happens at His parousia. And we see the man of sin destroyed by the brighteness of His parousia, His coming. How does that fit with pre-trib. Assuming that the man of sin is the beast of Revelation (and is there any pre, mid, or post tribber who does not?) then how is Paul being consistent with pre or mid trib at all? In Revelation, the beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire in chapter 19, after the scene of the Word of God on a white horse.

If the rapture occurs at the parousia, then wouldn't the man of sin be destroyed before the tribulation starts?

And 'parousia' is used in verses 1 and verse 8 of the very same chapter. Wouldn't it be referring to the same coming of Christ, since Paul uses the same word right here in the same passage?
II Thessalonians 2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

and

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

If the church is raptured/gathered at His coming and that wicked is destroyed by the brightness of the Lord's coming, then doesn't it stand to reason that the rapture occurs at the coming of the Lord at end of the tribulation when the beast is destroyed?
Uh, those are pretrib verses
You made a case for a pretrib rapture.
We agree he returns postrib.
You defy rev 19.....he returns WITH his saints..... No rapture postrib
You defy rev 14
You defy mat 25
You defy the last supper dialog
You defy the 2 escape verses.

You think those and our others are to be swept off the table to be rejected in favor of your single verse in mat that MUST BE REFITTED to promote a belief that is simply pulled from thin air.

You can NOT possibly read all my verses and conclude what you do.
It is erroneous,impossible,and is PROVEN HANDS DOWN to be false

That is WHY the postrib doctrine NEVER,EVER incorporates the heart of heaven......THE BRIDE /GROOM component.

That is WHY postrib rapture doctrine is 90% anti pretrib,the rest is a lifelong 1000 page OT scrambled non issue thesis,or mat 24 rearranged belief system.

Rev 14 read it and ask why you defy 1 thes 4
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Matthew 24:29-31 is dealing with the rapture/resurrection not the second coming

The 7 seals that Jesus opens are for the tribulation to weed out the tares within His body by the end of the great harvest:

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 13:36-43 Then he left the multitudes, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Explain unto us the parable of the tares of the field. (37) And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; (38) and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; (39) and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels. (40) As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world. (41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity, (42) and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. (43) Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears, let him hear.

This parable of the wheat and tares speaking of angels being sent forth to harvest at the end of the world is further proven in Revelation 14:

Revelation 14:14-20 And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. (15) And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. (16) And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped. (17) And another angel came out from the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. (18) And another angel came out from the altar, he that hath power over fire; and he called with a great voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. (19) And the angel cast his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vintage of the earth, and cast it into the winepress, the great winepress, of the wrath of God. (20) And the winepress was trodden without the city, and there came out blood from the winepress, even unto the bridles of the horses, as far as a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

The 6th seal at the end of the tribulation marks the beginning of the year of wrath AFTER the 7 years of tribulation:

Revelation 6:12-17 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood; (13) and the stars of the heaven fell unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she is shaken of a great wind. (14) And the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (15) And the kings of the earth, and the princes, and the chief captains, and the rich, and the strong, and every bondman and freeman, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains; (16) and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: (17) for the great day of their wrath is come; and who is able to stand?

Revelation 6:12-17 proves that it is not until the 6th seal is opened by Jesus that that the worldly are declaring "the great day of their wrath is come"!

The 6th seal causes a great earthquake, the sun becomes black, the moon becomes as blood, the stars fall to the earth, the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up, every mountain and island were moved out of their places, and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.

These same events are described as happening AFTER the tribulation in these three passages of the Olivet discourse when we examine precept upon precept:

Matthew 24:29-31 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (30) and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-27 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, (25) and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken. (26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. (27) And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 21:25-28 And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows; (26) men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. (27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (28) But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh.

The second coming is described in Revelation 19 and has no mention of all the events listed above but does directly deal with the judgment through wrath that the wicked feared by pleading that "the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of their wrath is come; and who is able to stand?" in Revelation 6:16-17~ :

Revelation 19:11-21 And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (12) And his eyes are a flame of fire, and upon his head are many diadems; and he hath a name written which no one knoweth but he himself. (13) And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (14) And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure. (15) And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty. (16) And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. (17) And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid heaven, Come and be gathered together unto the great supper of God; (18) that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses and of them that sit thereon, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, and small and great. (19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat upon the horse, and against his army. (20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought the signs in his sight, wherewith he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshipped his image: they two were cast alive into the lake of fire that burneth with brimstone: (21) and the rest were killed with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, even the sword which came forth out of his mouth: and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Many errors in this as I have previously pointed out.
Even with you misplacing rev 14,you end up with the GWTJ in the middle of the 7 yr gt.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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That's lukewarm though maybe one of the links say that Jesus,angels nor man knew the day or hour but did later...
That is a bride / groom component.

The last supper is a model of the Jewish betrothal.
It was serious and binding
The groom left her,went back to his fathers house and built a house or addition for him and bride . then at the fathers prompting he would go,at night and get her.
The rapture.
They went back to the fathers house
(Heaven).
 
Jul 23, 2018
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The last supper is a vivid,vivid picture of the Jewish wedding betrothal.
The 10 virgin parable is a vivid,vivid picture of the rapture.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Another factoid.
The 1st miracle was no other than a wedding setting.
His 1st ministry ingredient

In heaven, last =1st,1st=last.

Get it?

IOW the first miracle HAD TO BE at a wedding/in a wedding/a wedding with him in supernatural "performance"

Get it?
 
Mar 14, 2011
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isnt revelation 14 a mid-trib rapture? Whats your point here?
As I read that post. I would see rev 14 as God destroying all the strentgth or wine the
Oh, ok so what your saying is that the "paradise" that Jesus promised the soul that died with Him is a resting place and not in the place where Jesus sits down at the right hand of the Father:

Luke 23:42-43 And he said, Jesus, remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom. (43) And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

Mark 16:19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken unto them, was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.

Your willingness to twist the scripture to fit your narrative is quite amazing!!!

Lazarus was raised by Jesus four days after he died but you have no idea if he died again before Jesus died and was resurrected with Him but that wont stop you from making that assumption; "(Lazarus and others on the day he died) died again":

John 11:39-40 Jesus saith, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time the body decayeth; for he hath been dead four days. (40) Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou believedst, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

Then you go on to say those souls who with their bodies who were resurrected with Jesus and appeared unto many "died again" though you have ABSOLUTELY no scripture to prove these souls didn't go with Jesus after His resurrection:

Matthew 27:50-53 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. (51) And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; (52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, (53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Especially in light of this passage:

Hebrews 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment;
Jesus did not tell that man, Today I will ressurect you. You will recieve your glorified body, I will give you the bema seat judgment and try you rworks by fire to see if you get Gods silver or precious stone, or wood hay and straw. And give you the crowns of life and other things you may or may not recieve.

He said today you will be with me.. Huge different, The people in rev had already went through those things, meaning the ressurection had already occured.

So no, it is not my willingness to twist scripture. It is my unwillingness to make the scripture say something it does not say to fit my own beliefs.

And with that I bid you good day When you can talk to people whith love and like an adult. I will return and maybe give you some of myself. But I have refused to talk to know it alls who do nothing but attack and tear people down. So you can join y9ur brothers who came before and acted like you. Good luck trying to convince people who disagree with you. Your attitude alone will push people away.. Your wasint your time here.
 
Oct 23, 2018
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As I read that post. I would see rev 14 as God destroying all the strentgth or wine the

Jesus did not tell that man, Today I will ressurect you. You will recieve your glorified body, I will give you the bema seat judgment and try you rworks by fire to see if you get Gods silver or precious stone, or wood hay and straw. And give you the crowns of life and other things you may or may not recieve.

He said today you will be with me.. Huge different, The people in rev had already went through those things, meaning the ressurection had already occured.

So no, it is not my willingness to twist scripture. It is my unwillingness to make the scripture say something it does not say to fit my own beliefs.

And with that I bid you good day When you can talk to people whith love and like an adult. I will return and maybe give you some of myself. But I have refused to talk to know it alls who do nothing but attack and tear people down. So you can join y9ur brothers who came before and acted like you. Good luck trying to convince people who disagree with you. Your attitude alone will push people away.. Your wasint your time here.
We all have attitudes and we all still can learn whether directly or indirectly. Hopefully doors are always opening here not closing. Peace on earth good will toward men/women...…
 
Oct 6, 2011
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That is a bride / groom component.

The last supper is a model of the Jewish betrothal.
It was serious and binding
The groom left her,went back to his fathers house and built a house or addition for him and bride . then at the fathers prompting he would go,at night and get her.
The rapture.
They went back to the fathers house
(Heaven).

lol, i suppose there's some arguing post and others pre and so if someone says something out of rhythm they just have to be on the opposing side. In all of this though there are also some who are just following along with the thread and observing the two as they debate "lukewarm' so to speak.

I suppose it's is a little odd to you that none will address the 10 virgins(you keep asking,lol) but it all depends on who it is they were told to go to and buy("go to those who sell and buy") and why is if they go to them to buy and Rev.18:13 says Babylon is who sold the oil. Now if the 5 do go to those who sell and buy they would then need to buy and sell with the mark because none could buy and sell without it(Rev.13:17). But now is this "pre or post", how is it that the 5 virgins go to the wedding before the beast,his mark and Babylon who sells the oil are there and they are there selling the oil when they go to the wedding?

Not that I am answering for the post trib. position I would rather them do so themselves my point in the post you quoted is that Rev. 5:... explains that none could loose the seals or look on it then says the Lamb that was slain was found worthy "because he was slain" so is it reasonable to think that Jesus spoke of the contents of the sealed scroll in the four Gospels before he was slain?
 
Aug 3, 2018
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tanakh said:He doesn't elude to the Holy Spirit being taken away to allow the Son of Perdition to be revealed either.
This belief is based on the need to explain the idea that the Church is raptured before the tribulation begins ie no church on earth = no Holy Spirit here either.
Yea it is a pretty silly notion that the Holy Spirit will not be on the earth during the tribulation because David clearly made it very obvious that the Holy Spirit of God is everywhere including the depths of hell::

Psalms 139:7-12 […]
Pre-tribbers (such as myself) do not believe the Holy Spirit will not be involved in the tribulation or be present on the earth [but that His role will have changed] any more than we believe that He wasn't present and involved on the earth before Christ was glorified [ not!], according to this verse:

"39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" John 7:39

...instead [of us believing what you've suggested we believe], it is that we believe His role will have changed, for "the Church which is His body" is "SEALED unto the day of redemption"... "until the redemption of 'the purchased possession'..." [that's us], ... that is, "the Church which is His body" is indwelt with His Spirit (and once we are raptured, His role then changes on the earth and His involvement there...)


I do believe it is the Church indwelt/sealed with His Spirit that is referred to where it says (2Th2),

"...until out of the midst he be come [come to be], AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed..." (and his "be revealed" is at the START of the 7-yr trib, according to the other things I've already mentioned in this track... No time now to cover that in any detail...)