The Rapture of the church, REAL or NOT REAL?

[Psalm1]

I have no doubt that I will Join the Lord in the air at his second coming with all the Saints.
You are the one who seems to believe you are more righteous than all those saints that have suffered tribulation and even death in the last 2000 years and even suffering and dying today. So righteous that God will rapture you before the time of tribulation comes.
You not have given a single Scripture in context that proves a pre-tribulation at any moment rapture of the church.

For one, your setting the rapture is 100% backwards.
At the end of trib there is no buying or selling for anyone without the mark.
( ahem...that alone tells you there are no
saints alive to rapture)

There will be normal life. As Jesus declared.
There will be everyday life. As Jesus declared.

Mat 24 says " before the flood, one taken/left, watch and be ready "

Your doctrine is way off and vastly omits rapture verses.
How can you unpack the rapture via omission?????

 

[Psalm1]

To answer you question, I will go to Scripture.
Matthew 24:29-31
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken;
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31)And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of earth shall wail because of him. Even so, A-men.

You just declared via scripture, that after thectrib the saints already in heaven are gathered.
We see your depiction of the pretrib rapture with saints ALREADY IN HEAVEN (As you showed us) gathered IN HEAVEN (As you showed us) mounting white horses.
You showed us angels ( not Jesus does the gathering).
Yes I do agree with your pretrib rapture depiction.

 

[Psalm1]

The second coming of Jesus is when the harvest happens.

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Jesus said plainly that the harvest is the end of the world.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 24:30-31
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1Th 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is why I believe the rapture will happen at the second coming of Jesus.
When He appears in all His glory. No secret.

Not being ugly , but that is way off.
Tares are burned at the GWTJ.
LOF for unsaved is after the mil.
It even says the second resurrection has ALL THE DEAD gathered AFTER THE MIL.
So...the tares thingy has zero to do with the rapture of 1 thes 4, acts 1, Matt.25, Matt.24, and the mid trib rapture of the Jews in Rev 14:14.

The ONLY place he comes in power and glory is on white horses which CAN NOT POSSIBLY BE THE RAPTURE. ( due to the verses no postribber will engage)

Concerning the 1 thesalonians, chapter 4:15. That you posted, which is the pre-tribulation rapture, what is missing, but your doctrine adds, is that they come back to Earth.
your doctrine adds that they meet the Lord in the air, I assume on the white horses.
And then they return immediately to Earth.
The Holy Spirit is way ahead of that doctrine.
Because in Matthew chapter 25 We see all of the virgins left their home and never went back.
but the post tribulation doctrine erroneously has Jesus gathering these virgins and going back to their home (Earth).

And so that is extremely disruptive and erroneous of what Jesus himself said.

 

[Psalm1]

Y'both (MM & Howdy) seem to be quarreling now, which is a no-no per 2TM 2:14&23-24, etc.

Isn't the point regarding the rapture/second coming to be ready (MT 24:36-44)?

So, since we are at an impasse, can we find another topic that will be productive?

Maybe cancel every thread since some call lively discussion quarreling.

 

[Howdy]

The Bible does not say that the Lord will leave His body here to suffer through the 'Wrath of God'.

And, despite what some may want to claim, the post-trib view does not teach it or even suggest it.

It is only imagined by folks who refuse to look objectively at what the Bible really actually says.

The 'seals' and 'trumpets' are not part of the 'Wrath of God'. Never have been. Never will be.

The 'vials' - and only the 'vials' - are the 'Wrath of God'. The Bible shows us this very clearly.

It helps to examine/study the 'seals', 'trumpets', and 'vials' in 'event' terms:

~ What occurs before what?
~ What occurs after what?
~ What occurs at the same time as what?

The Second Coming of Christ (His appearance) occurs before the 'Wrath of God' - it is Christ Himself Who "dishes it out" upon the earth.

(Yes - He sends angels out to perform the actions; however, He operates like a General instructing an army - telling them what to do.)

The 'seals' and 'trumpets' precede the Second Coming of Christ; and therefore, are over-and-done before the 'Wrath of God' comes about.

The very first thing Christ does at His coming is resurrect/rapture His saints.

While they are with Him "in the air", He "dishes out" the 'Wrath of God' upon the earth.

After that, the 1000-year reign of Christ - which begins when Christ appears - proceeds...

Please see:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Time_Line.html

i agree completely.
Could not be more clear.
It amazes me how people who claim to be experts in understanding Scripture miss this.
I guess they see themselves and the churches today as being more holy and worthy to escape tribulation than our forefathers who suffered greatly, and even died.
They also cannot see that tribulation and wrath are 2 very different things.
They totally ignore Acts 14:22 which says
confirming the souls of the disciples, and exporting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation inter into the kingdom of God.
I am also reminded of 2 Timothy 3:7
Ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of truth.
They will never see the truth until the beast, man of sin comes forth and begins his reign of terror.
Time for me to leave this thread and not waste anymore time here.

 

[Randy4u2c]

Please understand that the word rapture is not in the word of God. It is a misinterpreted, false, man made doctrine telling people they are going to fly away and escape the coming tribulation when Satan comes to earth as Antichrist claiming to be God. Even though in Ezk 13:18-23, God says he is against those that hunt souls to make them fly, the churches still do it to this day. We will indeed be changed into spiritual bodies and be gathered to the Lord at the trump of God, which is the 7th or last trump recorded in I Cor 15:51-54. It is at this trump that Christ returns to earth with his army of angels and his millennium reign begins. We don't have to fly away. He is coming here!

Satan appears on earth at the 6th trump claiming to be God and will deceive the world by performing great signs and teaching false doctrine as foretold in Rev 13:11-14. Many will fall away to his deception because they were never taught that Satan would come first, before Jesus, claiming to be him. God's elect know that Satan is a phony and will come first and they will not bow down to him or worship him. Rather, they will make the stand against him and expose his lies with the Holy Spirit speaking through them as recorded in Math 10:16-20. This is how it is going to go down. The only way you are going to escape the tribulation of Antichrist (Satan) is by knowing the truth.. God has foretold us all things. Math 24, Mark 13, Luke 21.

 

[Musicmaster]

The pre-trib rapture will not be some guy walking about claiming to be what he isn't, and thus leading anyone astray. The rapture will be the Lord calling up the dead in Christ first, and then we who remain alive at His coming to the clouds, where we will all meet Him to depart into Heavenly places, as scripture declares.

Here's another major problem with the second coming of Christ allegedly being the rapture of the body of Christ:

In Acts 1, the angel told the disciples that Christ will come for us in "like manner" as they had seem Him go, which is NOT on a white horse, not with power and destruction as will characterize His second coming in wrath. When He departed, it was with Him showering blessings and instructions to those who loved Him and the only ones who could see Him. His second coming will be with wrath and destruction to the enemies of Himself and His chosen people Israel.

So, again, the post-tribbers have massive problems on their hands.

Mid-tribbers and pre-wrathers aren't any different in the difficult position where they stand in relation to scripture and reality.

MM

 

[GaryA]

It amazes me how people who claim to be experts in understanding Scripture miss this.

Until a person decides that knowing the real actual honest unadulterated truth is the most important thing - "even if it hurts" - their eschatology will be in error and they will not understand the End Times Scenario. Why? Because, until they reach that point, they will not be willing to swallow their pride - which is absolutely necessary if they are to obtain a proper understanding of these things. Until they can accept the idea that they could possibly actually be wrong - they will not listen to that which is necessary to correct the error that they have been taught.

If you tell someone that there is no 7-year 'prophetic' End Times period in Bible prophecy or that the 70th week of Daniel ended in 34 A.D. - and, the best they can/will bring themselves to do is to call you a crazy stupid ignorant idiot and "shut their mind" even more than it was already - then, they are most definitely not in a position to gain a better perspective (No one really learns much while in that state of mind.) - because their mind is "locked onto" whatever they have been taught that they do not want to let go of --- two words - 'cognitive dissonance'. However - instead of being a 'hothead' - and, getting all-bent-out-of-shape because someone believes something different than they do - if they swallow their pride and "open their mind" to the very real possibility of increased knowledge and understanding (because they truly believe it is more important to gain knowledge and understanding than it is to argue with someone who believes something different than they do) - well - "there is hope"...

If you tell someone that you were "born-and-raised" under the pre-trib umbrella - but, later came to understand through personal Bible study why it is not biblical - for some reason, they just do not think there is any value in that; albeit, they have only ever known pre-trib while you have seen both sides of it - yet, they do not think you have any worthwhile perspective to offer - go figure...

They also cannot see that tribulation and wrath are 2 very different things.

Yes - I myself have noticed this a lot over the years. Moreover, many/most folks do not understand how the 'seals', 'trumpets', and 'vials' each have a different/separate purpose in prophecy - which is easily overlooked and missed completely if you try to "cram" them all together into a singular collective "tribulation period" as if it were all just part of the same thing - which they are most definitely not - they are separate - each has a purpose in the prophetic landscape of the End Times.

 

[GaryA]

If you would, please explain how there could possibly be a distinction to the extent that the Lord Himself, opening the seals with His own Hand to release the four horsemen upon the earth, killing one fourth of the entire world's population, is not His wrath.

I will agree that the second half will be the GREAT tribulation, with the horrors of His greater wrath being far worse than the first half.

But get this, those out there who are mathematically challenged, another third of mankind will die in the second half, which is the same number as those who die in the first half:

8 Billion X 0.25 = 2 Billion
6 Billion X 0.333333 = 2 Billion

In other words, one fourth will die in the first half during the opening of the seals, and a third of the remainder will die in the second half during the bowls, etc.

So, please explain to us all how you drive that wedge of distinction for wrath between the vials and the seals and trumpets.

How did you ever arrive at the idea of one fourth of the world's population being wiped out isn't within the scope of God's wrath at the presence of just the four horsemen from the seals? Is the Lord not in control? Was not that 70th week established by the Lord Himself against Israel and the unbelieving world?

As an Israeli, and am therefore well aware of our past and why the 70 weeks were leveled against us, and will continue in the 70th, and against the unbelieving world in totality. I'd very much like to see your thoughts on that.

MM

In general - I am more than happy to try to explain my perspective as I have time. However, experience has taught me...

I have already begun to explain - remember this? :

It helps to examine/study the 'seals', 'trumpets', and 'vials' in 'event' terms:

~ What occurs before what?
~ What occurs after what?
~ What occurs at the same time as what?

Did you give it any thought?

After reading my previous post in this thread (#88) - if you genuinely feel that we can have a courteous conversation - because you truly want to understand my perspective better - we can proceed.

If your "attitude" is "to win" - I do not believe it will do any good to continue.

If you can seriously consider what has been put forth on this web page as having considerable merit:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html

- then, there is a much better chance that I will be able to help you understand my perspective in such a way that will answer your questions.

And, the point of my saying this is - it is not a simple 5-minute answer/post. (Or I would have written it here instead of all of this.)

To understand my perspective successfully, you must be willing to consider ideas that oppose what you believe.

What I want to know is whether or not you really-and-truly are willing to let me lead you down that path - having the patience and willingness to try to follow where I will lead instead of just wanting to "trash talk" whatever I say...???

Whether you end up changing what you believe is a separate issue - the question is - do you honestly want to understand a different perspective?

And, are you willing to exercise the patience that it will require? Are you willing to "be the student" for some reasonable number of my posts while I try to explain those things that I feel are necessary for you to understand - so that you may "put it all together" successfully?

Are you willing to follow my lead? Or, will you try to circumvent everything I say?

I have been on this site for a long time - just take a wild guess about the kind of 'crap' I am used to dealing with...

I cannot help but wonder - what is your real intent?

If it is good and right and proper - well - we might just be able to get somewhere with this...

I do not mean to "put you in a bad light" or anything like that - not judging you - just want to know where you stand.

I like the '2 Billion' math illustration.

 

[Psalm1]

i agree completely.
Could not be more clear.
It amazes me how people who claim to be experts in understanding Scripture miss this.
I guess they see themselves and the churches today as being more holy and worthy to escape tribulation than our forefathers who suffered greatly, and even died.
They also cannot see that tribulation and wrath are 2 very different things.
They totally ignore Acts 14:22 which says
confirming the souls of the disciples, and exporting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation inter into the kingdom of God.
I am also reminded of 2 Timothy 3:7
Ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of truth.
They will never see the truth until the beast, man of sin comes forth and begins his reign of terror.
Time for me to leave this thread and not waste anymore time here.

You presented conjecture.
Your opinion outside the Bible teaching
Of the rapture verses, and God taking His people out before the trib as declared in God's word.

 

[Psalm1]

the rapture is real i think everyone agrees. the disagreement comes on the timing of the rapture. throughout church history up until the 1800s it was never debated as everyone knew the catching up of believers who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord happens at the coming of the Lord as the verse reads. no one ever imagined there would be two separate comings, until people started imagining and at which point you can start reading it into the scriptures and you start seeing it everywhere cause you are looking for it.

when you are reading through the bible you have to think to yourself hmm is this the second coming or rapture coming? and many times the rapturists dont even agree among themselves on which is which.

i wouldnt touch that system. i will believe it once someone shows me the two phases of the second coming or 3 comings in the bible. ive never seen it, no one has.

Then you have never read Rev 14 1-14 with understanding.

 

[Psalm1]

This is a great response. You sound like what the New Testament calls "A good Berean.". The Bereans were ancient people of "The Word."

Thank you
Yes through much study God's word reveals the Groom is coming for the bride.

All those verses are pretrib.
...any berean will readily incorporate the rapture verses.
It is the elephant in the room.

 

[Psalm1]

Perhaps I'm an oddity with my being an Israeli, and yet who believes in the pre-tribulation rapture because of my belief in what the Bible teaches about that rather than the silliness of the claim that this belief allegedly started with Darby, et al.

Why do I believe what the Bible says to us about this?

Well, to that question I will ask what other source is there other than the Bible?

In the arena of reason, the idea that the Lord will leave His body here to suffer through His own wrath poured out upon this earth and upon Israel, that just makes no sense.

Additionally, works-based salvation, which dominates many people's thinking through beliefs they harbor, they never seem to think through the implications of such a belief. For example, the idea that one can lose his salvation, that is works-based salvation, but so few ever think through to the conclusion to which such a belief leads.

So, those who WANT to stay here for the tribulation, go for it. As for me, I prefer to believe the scriptures.

MM

I am glad you are able to read your Bible without omissions

 

[Johnny55]

Perhaps I'm an oddity with my being an Israeli, and yet who believes in the pre-tribulation rapture because of my belief in what the Bible teaches about that rather than the silliness of the claim that this belief allegedly started with Darby, et al.

Why do I believe what the Bible says to us about this?

Well, to that question I will ask what other source is there other than the Bible?

In the arena of reason, the idea that the Lord will leave His body here to suffer through His own wrath poured out upon this earth and upon Israel, that just makes no sense.

Additionally, works-based salvation, which dominates many people's thinking through beliefs they harbor, they never seem to think through the implications of such a belief. For example, the idea that one can lose his salvation, that is works-based salvation, but so few ever think through to the conclusion to which such a belief leads.

So, those who WANT to stay here for the tribulation, go for it. As for me, I prefer to believe the scriptures.

MM

Musicmaster, First off, welcome! I feel so honored that someone from the land of the bible would join in. Wow! What an honor sir! A few years ago I wanted to get to know Israeli people without having to go through the expense, as it is quite expensive, to travel from here in the USA to Israel. So I joined an online Israeli Orthodox group chatting online thinking about how I had always heard how friendly they were. WOW was I ever wrong! OK, so I joined the group and said "Hello to the group." They came in with the warm accolades and well wishes and I felt good about it.
THEN when it came down to actual discussion of beliefs, I told them I believe that Yeshua was the Messiah, OH!!!! That became a different matter entirely! They attacked me mercilessly to no end!
According to them, I was a VERY deceived man and it did not stop with them simply voicing their opinions. It continued night and day until I eventually relented and left the group doing as Jesus Instructed "wiping the dust off my shoes!". Now per my beliefs and the teachings of Paul the Apostle and Jesus who said to be at peace with all man in as much as possible, I left without insults or any other evil conjecture., I prayed for them and remembered what very prominent teachers and Christian leaders have instructed in never to give up on the Israeli people. Oh no, sir! They have another chance coming to them when they realize who their true Messiah is. So I settled myself down, went to the Lord about the matter in prayer, and simply left all of that in His hands. Besides, There's no way on this EARTH any man in existence could possibly sway the hardened opinions, minds, and hearts of Israeli people. Phew, no way. I realized what "stiff-necked" meant when Moses said it. WOW! It took me some time of reflection and prayer to simply let it go. Part of me started to understand how the rest of the world hates Israel because of how argumentative and tough they are. Sheesh, I got my head bit off by them! But then at the same time, I understand God's love for these people and I trust Him and how He knows what he's doing even though I have NO clue how you reach Israeli people. I threw up my hands and said; "Let God have them because no one else can do this! It's not even possible with how hardened they are. Sheesh!" So I stopped doing any of it and simply prayed and left it at that. It's not in my hands but in Go's hands. He alone will deal with Israel. My job is to love them despite themselves. BOY they are tough! REALLY tough. Phew! No wonder back in Alaska when I used to live in Seward, Alaska while I was having breakfast at the BREEZE INN restaurant one day, I prayed and asked the Lord if I could move to Israel and maybe try it out. The answer I got was; "I will allow you to visit but do not move there.". So ok then. That was many years ago. Israel is so TOUGH as a people as a whole. Phew! WOW they are tough. I don't mean strength-wise either. So when I do get a chance, every once in a while I like to attempt to reach out even though I got chewed up and spit out by them and by tail handed to me. Sheesh they are REALLY tough to get along with when you state you are a Christian. Yet again, Yeshua died for them all! He loves them even though they killed him as they believed He committed blaspheme. A crime punishable by death under Mosaic law. I welcome you warmly and I can only hope you don't attack me like they did. You sir are loved by your messiah! I also send this message out to everyone else, NEVER discount the Israeli people. God is not done with them yet! They are the very apple of His eye! I want to bless Israel EVEN though they would attack me for what I believe because God sacrificed everything for them. So even though they treated me badly, I step back and cautiously pray for them and take it very slowly as I seek their absolute best and attempt to try and see through God's eyes even though I don't understand it all. I can, however, understand at least some of it since, well, everyone around them hates their guts and all these Arab nations seek to utterly destroy them. I understand the past in times like the Haulocost. So ok I can understand that. So even though Israel does not like us followers in Christ or Yeshua, I still choose to LOVE them. The Bible I read promises me that HE who blesses Israel will be blessed and HE who curses Israel will be cursed. I chose to BLESS Israel and if they attack me in any way, I give that back to God to handle. I chose to walk in love and peace and understanding in FAITH. So you sir are so very welcome here. God Bless you! God Bless Israel!
So you see, to have an Israeli here is an honor and to me a miracle!

 

[Musicmaster]

Musicmaster, First off, welcome! I feel so honored that someone from the land of the bible would join in. Wow! What an honor sir! A few years ago I wanted to get to know Israeli people without having to go through the expense, as it is quite expensive, to travel from here in the USA to Israel. So I joined an online Israeli Orthodox group chatting online thinking about how I had always heard how friendly they were. WOW was I ever wrong! OK, so I joined the group and said "Hello to the group." They came in with the warm accolades and well wishes and I felt good about it.
THEN when it came down to actual discussion of beliefs, I told them I believe that Yeshua was the Messiah, OH!!!! That became a different matter entirely! They attacked me mercilessly to no end!
According to them, I was a VERY deceived man and it did not stop with them simply voicing their opinions. It continued night and day until I eventually relented and left the group doing as Jesus Instructed "wiping the dust off my shoes!". Now per my beliefs and the teachings of Paul the Apostle and Jesus who said to be at peace with all man in as much as possible, I left without insults or any other evil conjecture., I prayed for them and remembered what very prominent teachers and Christian leaders have instructed in never to give up on the Israeli people. Oh no, sir! They have another chance coming to them when they realize who their true Messiah is. So I settled myself down, went to the Lord about the matter in prayer, and simply left all of that in His hands. Besides, There's no way on this EARTH any man in existence could possibly sway the hardened opinions, minds, and hearts of Israeli people. Phew, no way. I realized what "stiff-necked" meant when Moses said it. WOW! It took me some time of reflection and prayer to simply let it go. Part of me started to understand how the rest of the world hates Israel because of how argumentative and tough they are. Sheesh, I got my head bit off by them! But then at the same time, I understand God's love for these people and I trust Him and how He knows what he's doing even though I have NO clue how you reach Israeli people. I threw up my hands and said; "Let God have them because no one else can do this! It's not even possible with how hardened they are. Sheesh!" So I stopped doing any of it and simply prayed and left it at that. It's not in my hands but in Go's hands. He alone will deal with Israel. My job is to love them despite themselves. BOY they are tough! REALLY tough. Phew! No wonder back in Alaska when I used to live in Seward, Alaska while I was having breakfast at the BREEZE INN restaurant one day, I prayed and asked the Lord if I could move to Israel and maybe try it out. The answer I got was; "I will allow you to visit but do not move there.". So ok then. That was many years ago. Israel is so TOUGH as a people as a whole. Phew! WOW they are tough. I don't mean strength-wise either. So when I do get a chance, every once in a while I like to attempt to reach out even though I got chewed up and spit out by them and by tail handed to me. Sheesh they are REALLY tough to get along with when you state you are a Christian. Yet again, Yeshua died for them all! He loves them even though they killed him as they believed He committed blaspheme. A crime punishable by death under Mosaic law. I welcome you warmly and I can only hope you don't attack me like they did. You sir are loved by your messiah! I also send this message out to everyone else, NEVER discount the Israeli people. God is not done with them yet! They are the very apple of His eye! I want to bless Israel EVEN though they would attack me for what I believe because God sacrificed everything for them. So even though they treated me badly, I step back and cautiously pray for them and take it very slowly as I seek their absolute best and attempt to try and see through God's eyes even though I don't understand it all. I can, however, understand at least some of it since, well, everyone around them hates their guts and all these Arab nations seek to utterly destroy them. I understand the past in times like the Haulocost. So ok I can understand that. So even though Israel does not like us followers in Christ or Yeshua, I still choose to LOVE them. The Bible I read promises me that HE who blesses Israel will be blessed and HE who curses Israel will be cursed. I chose to BLESS Israel and if they attack me in any way, I give that back to God to handle. I chose to walk in love and peace and understanding in FAITH. So you sir are so very welcome here. God Bless you! God Bless Israel!
So you see, to have an Israeli here is an honor and to me a miracle!

Yes, I understand how hard-hearted and hard-headed my fellow Israeli's can be within the Orthodox community. Please keep in mind that they are "blinded in part," not entirely, otherwise I would never have come over onto the side of Messianic Judaism...although I'm not hardline in that realm compared to many of my fellow Messianic Jews who still believe in the requirement for adhering to the Mosaic Law. I am not of that stripe.

What you encountered is the stiff-necked nature of Orthodoxy, which is near impossible to sway, just like most Muslims. Barring a visitation within dreams and/or in visions, Orthodox Jews and Muslims are very difficult to convert over to the side of Christ Jesus. Messiah is a Jewish designation. I do not see Jesus from that perspective. Son of man is also a Jewish-centric label that Gentile professors of Christ have illegitimately adopted. Messiah and son of man are terms that have everything to do with our roots and our alignment with Yahshuah as fellow Jews in relation to His earthly ministry. Paul never referred to Christ as Messiah to the Gentiles to whom he was sent, but I fully reside under his Gospel of Grace rather than the Kingdom Gospel. I am saved through the Gospel of Grace, not the Kingdom Gospel since the latter has passed away with the fall of Israel.

Hope that helps you with your understanding about my Orthodox brethren.

MM

MM

 

[Johnny55]

Thank you for the response. By "The Fall of Israel I am assuming you mean what happened in 70AD? One historical account reads; "Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD by the Romans during the First Jewish–Roman War. The Romans besieged the city for months, eventually breaching the city's defenses and killing many of its inhabitants. "

 

[Johnny55]

Yes, I understand how hard-hearted and hard-headed my fellow Israeli's can be within the Orthodox community. Please keep in mind that they are "blinded in part," not entirely, otherwise I would never have come over onto the side of Messianic Judaism...although I'm not hardline in that realm compared to many of my fellow Messianic Jews who still believe in the requirement for adhering to the Mosaic Law. I am not of that stripe.

What you encountered is the stiff-necked nature of Orthodoxy, which is near impossible to sway, just like most Muslims. Barring a visitation within dreams and/or in visions, Orthodox Jews and Muslims are very difficult to convert over to the side of Christ Jesus. Messiah is a Jewish designation. I do not see Jesus from that perspective. Son of man is also a Jewish-centric label that Gentile professors of Christ have illegitimately adopted. Messiah and son of man are terms that have everything to do with our roots and our alignment with Yahshuah as fellow Jews in relation to His earthly ministry. Paul never referred to Christ as Messiah to the Gentiles to whom he was sent, but I fully reside under his Gospel of Grace rather than the Kingdom Gospel. I am saved through the Gospel of Grace, not the Kingdom Gospel since the latter has passed away with the fall of Israel.

Hope that helps you with your understanding about my Orthodox brethren.

MM

MM

I have a very learned friend who has spoken of this. He lives in Wasilla, Alaska and has studdied atThe University of Haifa in Haifa, Israel, He teaches how to read and speak Hebrew as well as many fascinating studies he speaks of such as the study of the use of the Shofar and the differing types of Shofars and what the differing sounds mean. Sounds the represent; A call to assembly. A call to worship. and a call to war for example. I found that fascinating and felt drawn into it myself. I have found myself often intrigued by How much depth and meaning there is in the richness of the Hebrew writings that we simply do not have in English. I love it when pastors refer to the ancient Hebrew words when delivering their sermons because it gives so much more depth and clarity to what they preach.

 

[Musicmaster]

Thank you for the response. By "The Fall of Israel I am assuming you mean what happened in 70AD? One historical account reads; "Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD by the Romans during the First Jewish–Roman War. The Romans besieged the city for months, eventually breaching the city's defenses and killing many of its inhabitants. "

No. The fall of Israel was long before 70 AD. Luke 13 makes that quite clear:

Luke 13:6-9
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree (Israel) planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit (faith and acceptance of her Messiah) thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

There is no written account anywhere in the gospels and Acts where this fits any even or parallel presented therein than the three year ministry of Yahshuah, and then the stoning of Stephen one year after Christ ascended from this earth, with Paul looking on with approval. The tree was...cut down, but will be revived through the horrors of tribulation as outlined in Revelation and in Zechariah.

Also, be careful with being enamored by Israeli customs and beliefs. It's ok to be zealous for the Law, such as observing the feasts and festivals and other ceremonial trappings recorded in the Law, even the dietary laws, but all of it tends to swell one's head with the pride of works, which fuels the fires of Hebrew Roots and other legalistic groupings who think that going back to the Law somehow will do things in their favor ranging from supplementing their salvation to earning rewards in Heaven. It's a pathway fraught with dangers of appeals to the flesh, mainly because the letter kills, as is written in the word:

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

The new testament is not speaking of the latter books in our Bibles, but of that cup Yahshuah passed to Israel at what is called "the last supper."

Blessings to you and yours.

MM

 

[Johnny55]

No. The fall of Israel was long before 70 AD. Luke 13 makes that quite clear:

Luke 13:6-9
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree (Israel) planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit (faith and acceptance of her Messiah) thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

There is no written account anywhere in the gospels and Acts where this fits any even or parallel presented therein than the three year ministry of Yahshuah, and then the stoning of Stephen one year after Christ ascended from this earth, with Paul looking on with approval. The tree was...cut down, but will be revived through the horrors of tribulation as outlined in Revelation and in Zechariah.

Also, be careful with being enamored by Israeli customs and beliefs. It's ok to be zealous for the Law, such as observing the feasts and festivals and other ceremonial trappings recorded in the Law, even the dietary laws, but all of it tends to swell one's head with the pride of works, which fuels the fires of Hebrew Roots and other legalistic groupings who think that going back to the Law somehow will do things in their favor ranging from supplementing their salvation to earning rewards in Heaven. It's a pathway fraught with dangers of appeals to the flesh, mainly because the letter kills, as is written in the word:

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

The new testament is not speaking of the latter books in our Bibles, but of that cup Yahshuah passed to Israel at what is called "the last supper."

Blessings to you and yours.

MM

Your warning reminds me of a rather comical thing that happened. I was at church in Wasilla, Alaska in the fellowship hall. It was after church and people had prepared food for all of us to enjoy and have fellowship after church.
As a backdrop to understanding why this is kind of funny, My family, I was raised in the Midwest around a LOT of hog farms. I knew absolutely NOTHING of any Jewish food laws. My family was all military vets. My father was a Navy Seal back during the 1960s and he was trained in part by Israeli Musod as well as ATF, FBI, and so on. One of my uncles was in Marine Recon in Vietnam while his brother my other uncle was U.S. Army Special Forces in Vietnam. So we had discipline but in a VERY different way than in church. I was raised in a military home. A family of warriors we were. So my spiritual experience really did not begin for me until later on in life. On my mother's side were all ENGLISH. On my father's side was Scottish, English and European Jewish. Yes I have some Jewish blood. German Jew or I think it is called Ashkenazi Jew. OK and so with that in mind, it sets the stage up for what happens at church. My friends and I would talk about our bloodlines and where each family stems from. It was my thing back then and is still a deep curiosity of mine. My friend is an EXPERT on the Hebrew language and is in fact JEWISH. OK so, he had gone around and dished out himself a plate of food. He say down as I went and started placing food items on my plate according to what I like. There was all different types of meats and cheeses as well as summer sausage. I was raised on summer sausage. So I placed a bit of it on my plate to enjoy. I walk over and sit down among my friend's family. As I am eating he notices the sausage and quietly informs me; "You should not be eating that.". I gave him a rather strange look as it hit me by surprise. "Excuse me, come again?". He smiled and said; "You should not be having that summer sausage, it's made out of pork.". I was confused so I asked him; "Why is this bad?". He smiled again and said; "You are a jew with Jew blood in you. Don't eat pork.". I scratched my head and then remembered what the Apostle Paul said in that if it causes a man to sin for you to eat meat then do not eat meat.". SO, I did not further partake of the summer sausage I like in order to honor and save the relationship. I looked over at him and said; "Oh I am sorry. I was never raised that way.". He said to me, "That's ok. I understand you are a Jew who does not know how to be Jewish.". I shrugged my shoulders and said; "Um I guess.". He told me that in Israel they would feel sorry for me because I genuinely do not know the ways." Of course being raised in a military family who served our country, we don't like sympathy too much. It's not offensive but just not something we seek after nor do we go around feeling sorry for ourselves as soldiers, sailers, and airmen. Me, I just thought that was kind of funny. All I ever knew about being a Jew was asking my father a few times if we were Scottish or English or what were we? His answer, "We are German Jews." and that was pretty much it entirely. No elaboration, no nothing. That's litterally all I knew except our German Jewish surname, "STARK", that means "Strong and Sturdy!" "men of strength and Gaul!". Which brought me relief because I feared it might be a Nazi name which I hate the Nazis!

 

[Johnny55]

Thank you
Yes through much study God's word reveals the Groom is coming for the bride.

All those verses are pretrib.
...any berean will readily incorporate the rapture verses.
It is the elephant in the room.

I remember the scriptures speaking highly of the Bereans and in churches, if you were a knowledgable person of the bible they would often say, "You are a good Berean."