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O
Revelation 3:10-14
I do not know how much clearer you can make this passage. It seems as though many already in this thread have their ideas of what the Bible says but have not read the points on what they are arguing.
Be careful how you treat your brothers and sisters in Christ.
I do not know how much clearer you can make this passage. It seems as though many already in this thread have their ideas of what the Bible says but have not read the points on what they are arguing.
Be careful how you treat your brothers and sisters in Christ.
10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Lat take a real loook at what these verses actually say? Theses verses prove that the rapture could not be pre trib in verse 10 you think that the keeping us from the hour of temptation is done by the rapture but in verse 11 He tells us to hold fast to what we have until Christ post trib 2nd coming that no take our crown. We know the ''coming qquickly is after the tribulation because in Revelation 2:16 says when He comes quickly He will fight against the unrepentant with the sword out of His mouth and we know this is post trib.
Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
If the coming quickly in Rev 2:16 is opost trib then we know that the coming quickly in Rev 3:11 is post trib. So would God tells us we are going to be raptrured pretrib in Rev 3:10 and then tells to hold fast until the post trib 2nd coming in the very next verse? Of course not so where have you gone wrong Olive? John 17:15 should clear ity up.
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
So Jesus' own prayer is that we will not be taken out of the world God can keep us from evil and or temptation without removing us from the earth, and just so you know that when Jesus prayed this He was speaking of all believers check out verse 20
John17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
So we know for a fact that Revelation 3:10 is not referring to the pretrib rapture because #1 Jesus tells us to hold fast until the post trib 2nd coming in the very next verse and #2 it would go against the very prayer of Jesus to remove from the earth before His 2nd coming.
O
Could you please post your view of the end of times with biblical references? (Don't just post the references, but explain them).
#1 The 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and
#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming.
Wouldn't that be enough If #1 the 2nd coming is after the trib and #2 the rapture is at the 2nd coming then that automatically make the rapture a post trib event would it not?
So real quick before I get into the 6 point I will give you a glimps at the first 2.
#1 The Bible says that the 2nd coming is immediately after the Tribulation.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The Bible teaches us the rapture is at the coming of the Lord.
1st Thess 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
If 1+2=3 then this should be enough but never fear I have more.
O
6 points that prove post trib rapture (scripture included)
#1 Matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
#2 1st Thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the resurrection of the just/rapture is at the 2nd coming.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they they are Christ at his coming.
#3 1st Cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation, the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
#4 Luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked (which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.
Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.
2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that no not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.
#5 John 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
#6 Rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs as well as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection.
Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Therefore the pretrib rapture as well as the mid trib is biblicaly impossible.
#1 Matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
#2 1st Thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the resurrection of the just/rapture is at the 2nd coming.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they they are Christ at his coming.
#3 1st Cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation, the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
#4 Luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked (which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.
Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.
2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that no not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.
#5 John 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
#6 Rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs as well as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection.
Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Therefore the pretrib rapture as well as the mid trib is biblicaly impossible.
O
So onwings and truth2010....what are you gonna do now that you have God completely figured out?
R
Thank you for your response (your first post). There is one thing that's true about the scriptures you posted. That is, they are both about the end of times, however each of them is about two very distinct events. Simply put, one speak of the second coming and the second of the rapture of the church.
As we discuss this subject, I ask that you try to stay on topic as much as possible. This is because, as you may already know, the eschatology of the Christian faith is very profound and contains many details. Your view of the end of times is the result of how you understand and interpret these details. Based on the two "biblical things" you wanted to prove, I would like us to concentrate on the timing of the rapture of the church and try not to deviate from that.
You are correct, Matthew 24:29-31 is at the end of the 7-year tribulation period. However, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is not.
Let's look at the details and the characteristics of each which, by the way, is what I really wanted you to do. I want you to explain the scriptures and not just post them. It is not enough to post them, as anyone can post scriptures, because just posting them do not prove your point. I want to read your understanding of the scriptures. Scriptures are and will always be true. However, man's understanding of them are very often misleading.
Matthew 24: 29) “Immediately after the anguish of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will give no light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 30) And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31) And he will send out his angels with the mighty blast of a trumpet, and they will gather his chosen ones from all over the world—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven.
Here we see that:
Vs.
1 Thessalonians 4: 15) We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. 16) For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. 17) Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.
Here we see that:
When we look at Revelation 14, the second coming of Christ, we see no resurrection of the dead until after the devil is chained in Revelation 20.
Revelation 14:1-2 (Read the whole chapter) Then I saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him were 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2) And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of mighty ocean waves or the rolling of loud thunder. It was like the sound of many harpists playing together.
As shown here, there is no resurrection of the dead which means that at the second coming of Christ, there will is no resurrection of the dead. This is consistent with Matthew 24 but not with 1 Thessalonians 4.
Further more, when we read Zachariah 14, we see that the Lord will come with his saints. Zachariah 14 is also consistent with Matthew 24 and Revelation14, but not with 1 Thessalonians.
Zachariah 14: 4-5 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. And the Mount of Olives will split apart, making a wide valley running from east to west. Half the mountain will move toward the north and half toward the south. 5) You will flee through this valley, for it will reach across to Azal. Yes, you will flee as you did from the earthquake in the days of King Uzziah of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all his holy ones with him.
Since I must be going, I won't list the details of Zachariah 14, but I will mention them. We see that when the Lord comes on the second coming, though He will come from the Clouds, He will not stay on the air and there is no "meeting with Him" in the air like 1 Thessalonians. Verse 4 says that His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives splitting it into two. This is probably what will cause the earthquake.
In Summary, the two scriptures you post are indeed about the end of times, but each one speak of two very specific events. The one in 1 Thessalonians speak of the rapture of the church at a time that is not the second coming (We will get into when that time is later since I want to stay on topic here), and the other one speak only of the second coming. The evidences of this claim are found within the scriptures I provided.
I had to cut this post short, but I will of course add to it later on tonight.
God Bless!
As we discuss this subject, I ask that you try to stay on topic as much as possible. This is because, as you may already know, the eschatology of the Christian faith is very profound and contains many details. Your view of the end of times is the result of how you understand and interpret these details. Based on the two "biblical things" you wanted to prove, I would like us to concentrate on the timing of the rapture of the church and try not to deviate from that.
You are correct, Matthew 24:29-31 is at the end of the 7-year tribulation period. However, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is not.
Let's look at the details and the characteristics of each which, by the way, is what I really wanted you to do. I want you to explain the scriptures and not just post them. It is not enough to post them, as anyone can post scriptures, because just posting them do not prove your point. I want to read your understanding of the scriptures. Scriptures are and will always be true. However, man's understanding of them are very often misleading.
Matthew 24: 29) “Immediately after the anguish of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will give no light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 30) And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31) And he will send out his angels with the mighty blast of a trumpet, and they will gather his chosen ones from all over the world—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven.
Here we see that:
- After the tribulation of those days (we will get into what those days are later on)
- The sun will be darkened and the moon will give no light.
- The stars will fall from the sky.
- The powers in heavens will be shaken.
- There will be mourning among all the peoples of the earth.
- The son of man will be seen on the clouds with power and great glory.
- The sending out of angels with the mighty blast of a trumpet.
- The angels will gather God's chosen ones from all over the world.
Vs.
1 Thessalonians 4: 15) We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. 16) For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. 17) Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.
Here we see that:
- The Lord will come down from heaven
- The voice of "the archangel."
- The trumpet call of God.
- The resurrection of dead. (The Christians (dead in Christ) will rise from the graves.)
- Those who are still alive on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
When we look at Revelation 14, the second coming of Christ, we see no resurrection of the dead until after the devil is chained in Revelation 20.
Revelation 14:1-2 (Read the whole chapter) Then I saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him were 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2) And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of mighty ocean waves or the rolling of loud thunder. It was like the sound of many harpists playing together.
As shown here, there is no resurrection of the dead which means that at the second coming of Christ, there will is no resurrection of the dead. This is consistent with Matthew 24 but not with 1 Thessalonians 4.
Further more, when we read Zachariah 14, we see that the Lord will come with his saints. Zachariah 14 is also consistent with Matthew 24 and Revelation14, but not with 1 Thessalonians.
Zachariah 14: 4-5 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. And the Mount of Olives will split apart, making a wide valley running from east to west. Half the mountain will move toward the north and half toward the south. 5) You will flee through this valley, for it will reach across to Azal. Yes, you will flee as you did from the earthquake in the days of King Uzziah of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all his holy ones with him.
Since I must be going, I won't list the details of Zachariah 14, but I will mention them. We see that when the Lord comes on the second coming, though He will come from the Clouds, He will not stay on the air and there is no "meeting with Him" in the air like 1 Thessalonians. Verse 4 says that His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives splitting it into two. This is probably what will cause the earthquake.
In Summary, the two scriptures you post are indeed about the end of times, but each one speak of two very specific events. The one in 1 Thessalonians speak of the rapture of the church at a time that is not the second coming (We will get into when that time is later since I want to stay on topic here), and the other one speak only of the second coming. The evidences of this claim are found within the scriptures I provided.
I had to cut this post short, but I will of course add to it later on tonight.
God Bless!
C
Read Daniel 11:36-39, Neither will he desire women V. 37. Mystery Babykon is the Vatican. The mother is the Roman Catholic Church, and the Harlots are all the denominations that are derived from the Roman C. C. : Rev. 17:5. Rome is on seven hills: Rev. 17:9 Yesterday I visited The Firsr Pres. Church and they prayed for the Catholic Church. The churches are joining the R. C.C. towards the one world church.
O
Thank you for your response (your first post). There is one thing that's true about the scriptures you posted. That is, they are both about the end of times, however each of them is about two very distinct events. Simply put, one speak of the second coming and the second of the rapture of the church.
O
You are correct, Matthew 24:29-31 is at the end of the 7-year tribulation period. However, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is not.
Let's look at the details and the characteristics of each which, by the way, is what I really wanted you to do. I want you to explain the scriptures and not just post them. It is not enough to post them, as anyone can post scriptures, because just posting them do not prove your point. I want to read your understanding of the scriptures. Scriptures are and will always be true. However, man's understanding of them are very often misleading.
Matthew 24: 29) “Immediately after the anguish of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will give no light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 30) And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31) And he will send out his angels with the mighty blast of a trumpet, and they will gather his chosen ones from all over the world—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven.
Here we see that:
Vs.
1 Thessalonians 4: 15) We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. 16) For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. 17) Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.
Here we see that:
Let's look at the details and the characteristics of each which, by the way, is what I really wanted you to do. I want you to explain the scriptures and not just post them. It is not enough to post them, as anyone can post scriptures, because just posting them do not prove your point. I want to read your understanding of the scriptures. Scriptures are and will always be true. However, man's understanding of them are very often misleading.
Matthew 24: 29) “Immediately after the anguish of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will give no light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 30) And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31) And he will send out his angels with the mighty blast of a trumpet, and they will gather his chosen ones from all over the world—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven.
Here we see that:
- After the tribulation of those days (we will get into what those days are later on)
- The sun will be darkened and the moon will give no light.
- The stars will fall from the sky.
- The powers in heavens will be shaken.
- There will be mourning among all the peoples of the earth.
- The son of man will be seen on the clouds with power and great glory.
- The sending out of angels with the mighty blast of a trumpet.
- The angels will gather God's chosen ones from all over the world.
Vs.
1 Thessalonians 4: 15) We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. 16) For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. 17) Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.
Here we see that:
- The Lord will come down from heaven
- The voice of "the archangel."
- The trumpet call of God.
- The resurrection of dead. (The Christians (dead in Christ) will rise from the graves.)
- Those who are still alive on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
R
Actually I agree with this first paragraph, after that though is were you go wrong. These are 2 events The 2nd coming and the Rapture. What you seem not to understand is that the rapture take place at the 2nd coming not 7 years before as 1st Thess 4:15 clearly states.
O
Zachariah 14: 4-5 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. And the Mount of Olives will split apart, making a wide valley running from east to west. Half the mountain will move toward the north and half toward the south. 5) You will flee through this valley, for it will reach across to Azal. Yes, you will flee as you did from the earthquake in the days of King Uzziah of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all his holy ones with him.
Since I must be going, I won't list the details of Zachariah 14, but I will mention them. We see that when the Lord comes on the second coming, though He will come from the Clouds, He will not stay on the air and there is no "meeting with Him" in the air like 1 Thessalonians. Verse 4 says that His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives splitting it into two. This is probably what will cause the earthquake.
In Summary, the two scriptures you post are indeed about the end of times, but each one speak of two very specific events. The one in 1 Thessalonians speak of the rapture of the church at a time that is not the second coming (We will get into when that time is later since I want to stay on topic here), and the other one speak only of the second coming. The evidences of this claim are found within the scriptures I provided.
I had to cut this post short, but I will of course add to it later on tonight.
God Bless!
Since I must be going, I won't list the details of Zachariah 14, but I will mention them. We see that when the Lord comes on the second coming, though He will come from the Clouds, He will not stay on the air and there is no "meeting with Him" in the air like 1 Thessalonians. Verse 4 says that His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives splitting it into two. This is probably what will cause the earthquake.
In Summary, the two scriptures you post are indeed about the end of times, but each one speak of two very specific events. The one in 1 Thessalonians speak of the rapture of the church at a time that is not the second coming (We will get into when that time is later since I want to stay on topic here), and the other one speak only of the second coming. The evidences of this claim are found within the scriptures I provided.
I had to cut this post short, but I will of course add to it later on tonight.
God Bless!
R
The event in 1st Thess 4 which you agree is the rapture happens when the Lord returns, which you also agree is at the end of the 7 year Tribulation. I do not see why you do not understand that the rapture is obviously post trib.
O
Please point out the flaw in my reasoning. Like I showed you on the previous post, the scriptures speak of not one but two events. 1 Thessalonians does not make any indication as to the timing of this rapture. It simply states the details of what will be happening. Unfortunately, when you compare the details with that of Matthew and other passages, they do not match. I can go into this further, but first I would like you to point out the flaws in my response.
1st Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
It takes place at the coming of the Lord, which is in your own words is after the 7 year Tribulation.
O
Correction: I agree that 1st Thes 4 is the rapture of the church. However, I made no assumption that it is at the second coming. As of right now, I have not said when I believe the rapture will take place simply because I want to focus in showing to you that the rapture and the second coming of the Lord are two distinct events. This is exactly what I have shown on my post.For further reference and in light of proper discussion, could you quote me on what I actually did say and not what you would like me to say.
O
One more thing to realize is....
#1 the resurrection of the just come before the rapture.
#2 1st Cor 15:2023 says that the resurrection of the just happens at the coming of the Lord not 7 years prior to it.
1st Cor 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
The resurrection of the just precedes the rapture yet itself does not occur until the post trib 2nd coming of Christ.
#1 the resurrection of the just come before the rapture.
#2 1st Cor 15:2023 says that the resurrection of the just happens at the coming of the Lord not 7 years prior to it.
1st Cor 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
The resurrection of the just precedes the rapture yet itself does not occur until the post trib 2nd coming of Christ.
R
I see that there is a play on terms that we must first get out of the way. I believe that the coming of the Lord, the Lord's Returns, and the Day of the Lord do not refer to one specific day but of a period of time. When I refer to the "second coming" I am refer to the end of the 7 years tribulation period.
The coming of the Lord happens in two parts. The first part is that of 1 Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians 15 which we refer to as the rapture of the church. This first appearance of the Lord's return shows that Jesus comes to take the church away. He will not stand on the earth's ground. He will stay in the air and the church will meet with and go with Him.
The second part of the Lord's return is that of Matthew 24, Rev 14, Zachariah 14 and many other scriptures when Christ comes with the church as judge to judge the world. You previously stated that I agree that the rapture of the church is at the Lord's return and that is accurate, however I never agree or even suggest that the rapture happen at the end of the seven years period.
It seems that you are very adamant in placing 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 at the end of the seven years period. This, as I have shown you before, cannot be because the scripture proves otherwise. I'll say it again why it cannot be.
1. We see a resurrection that occurs at the rapture of the church. We do not see this resurrection when Christ comes at the end of the 7 years of the tribulation period. In fact, the first resurrection occur after Christ had been on the earth for some time(not sure for how long as the scripture does not say) and after the devil had been chained for 1 thousand of years.
2. The bible shows that at the rapture of the church, the dead in Christ will rise. The emphasis of the dead in Christ points to the church. Not everyone will rise, but only the dead in Christ.
Placing the rapture at the end of the 7 years of the tribulation does not match. Just like the scriptures clearly show that they do not match. If by your understanding that they do, then please elaborate exactly how.
The coming of the Lord happens in two parts. The first part is that of 1 Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians 15 which we refer to as the rapture of the church. This first appearance of the Lord's return shows that Jesus comes to take the church away. He will not stand on the earth's ground. He will stay in the air and the church will meet with and go with Him.
The second part of the Lord's return is that of Matthew 24, Rev 14, Zachariah 14 and many other scriptures when Christ comes with the church as judge to judge the world. You previously stated that I agree that the rapture of the church is at the Lord's return and that is accurate, however I never agree or even suggest that the rapture happen at the end of the seven years period.
It seems that you are very adamant in placing 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 at the end of the seven years period. This, as I have shown you before, cannot be because the scripture proves otherwise. I'll say it again why it cannot be.
1. We see a resurrection that occurs at the rapture of the church. We do not see this resurrection when Christ comes at the end of the 7 years of the tribulation period. In fact, the first resurrection occur after Christ had been on the earth for some time(not sure for how long as the scripture does not say) and after the devil had been chained for 1 thousand of years.
2. The bible shows that at the rapture of the church, the dead in Christ will rise. The emphasis of the dead in Christ points to the church. Not everyone will rise, but only the dead in Christ.
Placing the rapture at the end of the 7 years of the tribulation does not match. Just like the scriptures clearly show that they do not match. If by your understanding that they do, then please elaborate exactly how.
R
One more.
3. The fact that Zachariah states that the Lord will come with His saints makes it harder for the post trib believers. I know you've claimed that we will go up and meet with him and then come down, however not only does the scriptures show otherwise, the term "come with His saints" give the idea of something more profound that us just going up and coming down with him.
3. The fact that Zachariah states that the Lord will come with His saints makes it harder for the post trib believers. I know you've claimed that we will go up and meet with him and then come down, however not only does the scriptures show otherwise, the term "come with His saints" give the idea of something more profound that us just going up and coming down with him.