The Rapture Theory

[Rosinsky]

Before you go on Rosinsky, answer this. If the rapture is at the last trump as 1st Cor 15:52 says it will be, then how can it be (the rapture that is) before the trumpet that sounds immediately after the tribulation in Matthew 24:29-31?

It's not hard really, you must first ask the last trumpet of what? Let's be clear on this, trumpets have been used throughout the bible to announce the beginning and/or the end of something. With that said, the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 announced the rapture of the Church. You may ask, since there is a last trumpet, then there was definitely a first. If this is so, then when was the first? The answer to this will depend on when you start counting. Key is, we must understand that it says the "last trumpet and not the seventh trumpet."

The sound of the trumpet in Matthew 24 announced the appearance of Jesus Christ with the raptured church.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

It's not hard really, you must first ask the last trumpet of what? Let's be clear on this, trumpets have been used throughout the bible to announce the beginning and/or the end of something. With that said, the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 announced the rapture of the Church. You may ask, since there is a last trumpet, then there was definitely a first. If this is so, then when was the first? The answer to this will depend on when you start counting. Key is, we must understand that it says the "last trumpet and not the seventh trumpet."

The sound of the trumpet in Matthew 24 announced the appearance of Jesus Christ with the raptured church.

I doesn't matter to me if the last trumpet is the 7th trumpet or not. Regardless of whether it is or is not the 7th trumpet I know this. It is the LAST trumpet sounded. So the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24 after the tribulation is over cannot be after the one sounded in 1st Corinthians 15 because the one in 1st Corinthians 15 is the last trump. So if the trumpet souns in Mathhew 24 is after the tribulation, then the last Trumpet that signals the rapture of the church in 1st Cor has to be after the trump in Matthew therefore is is biblically impossible for the rapture to be anything bu tpost trib and there is nothing that can be said to change this truth.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Now you already stated in post #39 that you do not believe the coming of the Lord mentioned in 1st Thess 4:15 is really talking about the coming of the Lord. Now are you going to say the last trump in 1st Cor 15:52 is not the last trump. You see this is what pretribbers have to do to hold to their false doctrine. They have to deny the plain words of scripture.

How about the fact that the 1st resurrection is after the Tribulation therefore the resurrection of the just cannot be before it starts?
Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.



Are you now going to tell me the 1st resurrection is not really the 1st resurrection?

 

[Rosinsky]

I doesn't matter to me if the last trumpet is the 7th trumpet or not. Regardless of whether it is or is not the 7th trumpet I know this. It is the LAST trumpet sounded. So the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24 after the tribulation is over cannot be after the one sounded in 1st Corinthians 15 because the one in 1st Corinthians 15 is the last trump. So if the trumpet souns in Mathhew 24 is after the tribulation, then the last Trumpet that signals the rapture of the church in 1st Cor has to be after the trump in Matthew therefore is is biblically impossible for the rapture to be anything bu tpost trib and there is nothing that can be said to change this truth.

Whether or not it matters to you means nothing, the fact remains that it matters. There is no debate in whether or not it is the last trumpet sounded, the scripture clearly says so. I'll say it again, it is the last trumpet sound... but the question is of what?

I will hold on to responding to your next post as you have yet to answer my previous questions and/or arguments. I'll like you to respond to the three points I have given you as to why there are two events with different purposes.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Whether or not it matters to you means nothing, the fact remains that it matters. There is no debate in whether or not it is the last trumpet sounded, the scripture clearly says so. I'll say it again, it is the last trumpet sound... but the question is of what?

I will hold on to responding to your next post as you have yet to answer my previous questions and/or arguments. I'll like you to respond to the three points I have given you as to why there are two events with different purposes.

I did respond re read the thread, However i do agree they are two event with two purposes. The fact remain they happen at the same time. Jesus is returning for multiple purposes.
#1 To Resurrect the just
#2 To rapture the saints.
(So that they both can receive their heavenly bodies)
#3 Restore the Jews.
#4 Destroy the wicked.
#5 Set up His millennial Kingdom.

The rapture is simply for those that survive the trib to get their heavenly bodies, so they can reign with Christ during the Millennium

You can provide no evidence that the rapture is anything but post trib. All you have done or can do is make unsupported assertions. On the other hand I have scripture to back up any and every claim I make.

The rapture may not be the 2nd coming but it occurs at the 2nd coming.

Let me as you this is the resurrection of the just and the rapture 2 separate event?
Do they occur basically at the same time?

The answer to both those questions is yes, and it is the same for the 2nd coming the resurrection of the just, Rapture, restoration of the Jews, destruction of the wicked all occur as Christ is returning from Heaven to earth at the post trib 2nd coming.

 

[Rosinsky]

Based on your responses, you have not provided any biblical or logical arguments that would support that they are not two different events. An argument is one or several statements that prove a point. You have yet to provide any. You have posted statements, but you have not made any arguments. I have shown you several times that they are based on the fact that they have different outcome and different characteristics. You have yet to really argue my points. Could it be because you don't have any arguments?

I will answer you current question.

Question 1: Let me as you this is the resurrection of the just and the rapture 2 separate event?

You are asking if the first resurrection and that of 1 Thes and 1 Corinthians 15 are separate, yes they are.

Question 2: Do they occur basically at the same time?

No, they do not happen at the same time. Why? First, like I have been posting, the dead in Christ will rise and meet with Christ in the air (the Rapture). Revelation 20, 14,and Matthew 24 shows no such thing. Second, though the first resurrection talk about just rising, there is no mention of meeting up with Christ in the clouds. Additionally, this resurrection does not take place until after a while after Christ had already come with the Church to judge the World.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Based on your responses, you have not provided any biblical or logical arguments that would support that they are not two different events. An argument is one or several statements that prove a point. You have yet to provide any. You have posted statements, but you have not made any arguments. I have shown you several times that they are based on the fact that they have different outcome and different characteristics. You have yet to really argue my points. Could it be because you don't have any arguments?

I will answer you current question.

Have you been reading this thread at all? I never said they we the same event, I say that they are 2 events that happens at once. To be more precise the rapture is one of many smaller events that encompass the lager event which would be the 2nd coming. You really should read before you respond.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

I will answer you current question.

Question 1: Let me as you this is the resurrection of the just and the rapture 2 separate event?

You are asking if the first resurrection and that of 1 Thes and 1 Corinthians 15 are separate, yes they are.

Question 2: Do they occur basically at the same time?

No, they do not happen at the same time. Why? First, like I have been posting, the dead in Christ will rise and meet with Christ in the air (the Rapture). Revelation 20, 14,and Matthew 24 shows no such thing. Second, though the first resurrection talk about just rising, there is no mention of meeting up with Christ in the clouds. Additionally, this resurrection does not take place until after a while after Christ had already come with the Church to judge the World.

WOW.... you are further off than I thought you were. I thoug t you just couldn't understand that the rapture occurs at the 2nd coming. It turns out you do no know the difference between the resurrection of the just, and the rapture. The resurrection is when the dead are raised and the rapture is when the living are raised. These 2 events happen one immediately after the other, at the post trib 2nd coming. You are doing nothing to help your case just showing how little you know.

Who taught you the stuff you believe? What denomination are you?

You have a awesome opportunity to learn. If you stop trying to defend the undefendable and go back reread this thread. I am not trying to belittle you, I really do think that if you would swallow your pride, read this entire thread with an open heart, you could learn the truth. The truth is in this thread, try to be open to God please.

 

[Rosinsky]

WOW.... you are further off than I thought you were. I thoug t you just couldn't understand that the rapture occurs at the 2nd coming. It turns out you do no know the difference between the resurrection of the just, and the rapture. The resurrection is when the dead are raised and the rapture is when the living are raised.

I find this to be very funny. There are so many terms that each one understands and uses them differently. You have not precisely explained what you meant from using the term "the resurrection of the just." I have been using Rev. 20 to refer to the first resurrection and suddenly you speak of the resurrection of the just. I assumed that you were referring to Rev 20. I cannot read your mind and unless you specify (which I had to do), one can only speculate what you mean. If my speculation of your term did not meet what you meant it to be, again I emphasize on what you meant it to be, I stand corrected.

It seems that you have not been reading the thread quite well. What I have been showing to you as two distinct events are the following:

1) 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 - The appearance of Jesus Christ who comes to rapture the Church where the dead in Christ will raise and go with Him to His Father's mansion. He will be visible only to believers.

2) Matthew 24:29-31, Zachariah 14:4-5, Rev 14:1-2 - The re-appearing of Jesus Christ with the church to judge the world. He will be visible to all.

We've been going on about the same thing, let's move along.

I believe that the rapture of the Church occurs before the tribulation and not after or in the middle.

I - The bible makes it quite clear in several places that we will not go through the tribulation. First, let me make it clear that I am not saying that Christians are somehow exempt from the pain and suffering of this world. In fact, Jesus said "Here on earth you will have many trials and sorrows..." (John 16:33). The Apostle Paul continued and said in Acts 2:22 "reminding them that we must suffer many hardships to enter the Kingdom of God." Beside, we can simply take a look around the world and we can see this simple truth. Many of us Christians have gone and are going through severe tribulations. I am speaking of the difference between the tribulation of this life and the tribulation to come when God will pour out His wrath on this earth.

The bible, however, makes it clear that God's people are exempt from the wrath to come in the Tribulation period, the one that is spoken by the prophet Daniel and many others.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 - And they speak of how you are looking forward to the coming of God’s Son from heaven—Jesus, whom God raised from the dead. He is the one who has rescued us from the terrors of the coming judgment.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 - For God chose to save us through our Lord Jesus Christ, not to pour out his anger on us.

Romans 5:9 - And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God’s condemnation

Revelation 3:10 - Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world


II - The rapture of the church is both signless and imminent, no one knows when.

The imminency of the Rapture of the Church:

1 Corinthians 15:52 - It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed.

Matthew 24:36 - “However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.

Matthew 25:13 - “So you, too, must keep watch! For you do not know the day or hour of my return.

Matthew 24:42-44 “So you, too, must keep watch! For you don’t know what day your Lord is coming. 43 Understand this: If a homeowner knew exactly when a burglar was coming, he would keep watch and not permit his house to be broken into. 44 You also must be ready all the time, for the Son of Man will come when least expected.

These scriptures show that when Christ come to rapture the church, it will happen very quickly. Not only that, there will be no signs given to indicate this time. Since we do not know the time, we are told to keep watch and remain faithful.

The pre-tribulation is the only view that allows the rapture to be like the scriptures show it is: imminent. The post and mid tribulation require some sorts of signs and prophetic occurrences.

III - There is no mention of the church during the tribulation period.

 

[sweetnshy]

Onwings......just out of curiosity, in Revelation 3 (I believe verse 10) when it says we'll be kept safe during the tribulation, how do you interpret that? I said before that pre-trib believers generally take that to mean that we'll be in heaven during the trib, and I know you don't agree with that (I'm not saying I do either), but do you think it will be like in Exodus, when the plagues affected everyone except for God's people? Or do you just think that God will give Christians the strength to get through it? Or something else?

 

[onwingsaseagles]

I believe that the rapture of the Church occurs before the tribulation and not after or in the middle.

You ''believe'' this but the bible teaches otherwise, you really should reread the thread with an open mind wanting to learn the truth. The truth is in this thread if you want to receive it.

There is not one single verse in all of scripture that would cause you to believe in the pretrib rapture.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Onwings......just out of curiosity, in Revelation 3 (I believe verse 10) when it says we'll be kept safe during the tribulation, how do you interpret that? I said before that pre-trib believers generally take that to mean that we'll be in heaven during the trib, and I know you don't agree with that (I'm not saying I do either), but do you think it will be like in Exodus, when the plagues affected everyone except for God's people? Or do you just think that God will give Christians the strength to get through it? Or something else?

Rev 3:10-11
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Lets take a real look at what these verses actually say? Theses verses prove that the rapture could not be pre trib in verse 10 you think that the keeping us from the hour of temptation is done by the rapture but in verse 11 He tells us to hold fast to what we have until Christ post trib 2nd coming that no take our crown. We know the ''coming quickly is after the tribulation because in Revelation 2:16 says when He comes quickly He will fight against the unrepentant with the sword out of His mouth and we know this is post trib.

Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

If the coming quickly in Rev 2:16 is post trib then we know that the coming quickly in Rev 3:11 is post trib. So would God tells us we are going to be raptrured pretrib in Rev 3:10 and then tells to hold fast until the post trib 2nd coming in the very next verse? Of course not so where have you gone wrong Olive? John 17:15 should clear ity up.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
So Jesus' own prayer is that we will not be taken out of the world God can keep us from evil and or temptation without removing us from the earth, and just so you know that when Jesus prayed this He was speaking of all believers check out verse 20
John17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
So we know for a fact that Revelation 3:10 is not referring to the pretrib rapture because #1 Jesus tells us to hold fast until the post trib 2nd coming in the very next verse and #2 it would go against the very prayer of Jesus to remove from the earth before His 2nd coming.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

The bible, however, makes it clear that God's people are exempt from the wrath to come in the Tribulation period, the one that is spoken by the prophet Daniel and many others.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 - And they speak of how you are looking forward to the coming of God’s Son from heaven—Jesus, whom God raised from the dead. He is the one who has rescued us from the terrors of the coming judgment.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 - For God chose to save us through our Lord Jesus Christ, not to pour out his anger on us.

Romans 5:9 - And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God’s condemnation

Revelation 3:10 - Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world

1st Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which has delivered us from the wrath to come.
To get a pretrib view out of this verse you would first have to make two assumptions, neither of which are scriptural. #1 That the wrath to come is the tribulation, and # 2 that the deliverance from this wrath is the rapture. As for the first assumption, you can believe the wrath to come to be many things. You can believe it to be a seven year tribulation, you can believe it to be the three and a half years of great tribulation, you can believe it to be the judgment of God when He separates the sheep from the goats, you can believe that it is Hell, or the lake of fire. As for me, I believe it is the judgment of God, when Jesus destroys the wicked with fire, which occurs at the post trib second coming, and later in this book I will prove as much biblically. What you can not do is, arbitrarily proclaim that the wrath equals the seven year tribulation period. The second assumption, needed to be made is that the deliverance from the wrath is the rapture, which is completely false. The scripture says that He ''has delivered us'' from the wrath to come past tense, the rapture is still in the future. Therefore the only way scripture could possibly refer to the rapture is if it read, who ''will deliver us'' from the wrath to come future tense. Conclusion, both assumption are unbiblical. The wrath is the judgment of God upon the wicked and the deliverance is the death of Jesus on the cross. We are not delivered from the tribulation by the rapture, but from judgment by the cross. That is the true meaning of this verse.




1st Thessalonians 5:9 For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.
Once again to get the pretrib rapture from this verse you must assume that the wrath is the tribulation, and our salvation is the rapture. Our Salvation is Jesus Christ, not the rapture, and we are saved from Hell, not the tribulation. This verse has been grossly misrepresented by the pretrib supporters.
Let me ask this, if our salvation is from the tribulation, what about the tribulational saints? If they are saved by the same blood of Christ as we are, then why are they not ''raptured'' the moment of their salvations, why are they appointed to wrath? If we are not appointed to wrath then no believer of any age is appointed to wrath. It is obvious that this verse has nothing to do with the rapture, tribulation ect...

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Rev 3:10-11
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Lets take a real look at what these verses actually say? Theses verses prove that the rapture could not be pre trib in verse 10 you think that the keeping us from the hour of temptation is done by the rapture but in verse 11 He tells us to hold fast to what we have until Christ post trib 2nd coming that no take our crown. We know the ''coming quickly is after the tribulation because in Revelation 2:16 says when He comes quickly He will fight against the unrepentant with the sword out of His mouth and we know this is post trib.

Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

If the coming quickly in Rev 2:16 is post trib then we know that the coming quickly in Rev 3:11 is post trib. So would God tells us we are going to be raptrured pretrib in Rev 3:10 and then tells to hold fast until the post trib 2nd coming in the very next verse? Of course not so where have you gone wrong Olive? John 17:15 should clear ity up.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
So Jesus' own prayer is that we will not be taken out of the world God can keep us from evil and or temptation without removing us from the earth, and just so you know that when Jesus prayed this He was speaking of all believers check out verse 20
John17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
So we know for a fact that Revelation 3:10 is not referring to the pretrib rapture because #1 Jesus tells us to hold fast until the post trib 2nd coming in the very next verse and #2 it would go against the very prayer of Jesus to remove from the earth before His 2nd coming.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

II - The rapture of the church is both signless and imminent, no one knows when.

The imminency of the Rapture of the Church:

1 Corinthians 15:52 - It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed.

Matthew 24:36 - “However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.

Matthew 25:13 - “So you, too, must keep watch! For you do not know the day or hour of my return.

Matthew 24:42-44 “So you, too, must keep watch! For you don’t know what day your Lord is coming. 43 Understand this: If a homeowner knew exactly when a burglar was coming, he would keep watch and not permit his house to be broken into. 44 You also must be ready all the time, for the Son of Man will come when least expected.

These scriptures show that when Christ come to rapture the church, it will happen very quickly. Not only that, there will be no signs given to indicate this time. Since we do not know the time, we are told to keep watch and remain faithful.

1st Corinthians is obviously a post trib event because it occurs at the last trump. there are trumpets sounded all through the tribulation the last trump cannot be before the tribulation starts.

The last 2 referrences our speaking of the 2nd coming not necessarily the rapture and if it is speaking on the rapture then it is undeniably a post trib event because the event spoken of in Matthew 24:36, and 42-44 is the same event spoken of in verse 29-31.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


So your idea that because no man knows the day or hour or that we should be always watching mean that the 2nd coming or rapture is coming all of a sudden with no signs before the tribulation is absolutely false scriptureclearly and openly tells us this will not happen until immediately after the tribulation.

The pre-tribulation is the only view that allows the rapture to be like the scriptures show it is: imminent. The post and mid tribulation require some sorts of signs and prophetic occurrences.

III - There is no mention of the church during the tribulation period.

This is simply untrue.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

The teaching that the church is not here during the tribulation is another pretrib myth, here are 4 passages that disproves that pretrib lie.

 

[Rosinsky]

You ''believe'' this but the bible teaches otherwise, you really should reread the thread with an open mind wanting to learn the truth. The truth is in this thread if you want to receive it.

There is not one single verse in all of scripture that would cause you to believe in the pretrib rapture.

On the contrary, as we discuss these verses it will become clear that you have been misled. The truth that you claim this thread have is not that of the bible, but one that faithfully and passionately believe. Unfortunately, you are faithfully and passionately wrong. Just claiming something to be true does not and I repeat does not make it to be true.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

On the contrary, as we discuss these verses it will become clear that you have been misled. The truth that you claim this thread have is not that of the bible, but one that faithfully and passionately believe. Unfortunately, you are faithfully and passionately wrong. Just claiming something to be true does not and I repeat does not make it to be true.

Actually you have been misled. I was taught by the Holy Spirit to were even though it is obvious that you have been taught, you were probably taught (from your teaching) in a bible collage of some sort. They have definitely taught you well the sad thing is they taught you as lie. My question to you is, rather than continue to believe and worse you teach other a lie created by satan, why not allow the holy Spirit to lead you to the truth?

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Just claiming something to be true does not and I repeat does not make it to be true.

This statement is so true and it is staring you in the face. The Bible confirms my beliefs and destroys yours. If you would take the time to read and understand the scriptures we have been discussing you too would realize your error.

 

[Rosinsky]

Actually you have been misled. I was taught by the Holy Spirit to were even though it is obvious that you have been taught, you were probably taught (from your teaching) in a bible collage of some sort. They have definitely taught you well the sad thing is they taught you as lie. My question to you is, rather than continue to believe and worse you teach other a lie created by satan, why not allow the holy Spirit to lead you to the truth?

OK, I see that this route will not be productive and will lead to nowhere as you will keep claiming to have the truth, taught by the Holy Spirit, and your doctrine is scriptural and I am in the wrong. I will respond and say you are in the wrong and you were not taught by the Holy Spirit. This method is destructive and always lead to chaos.

I would like to suggest a different approach. If you believe you have the truth, that's fine. Just let the Word speaks for itself. If I am in the wrong, as you say I am, the Word will reveal that to be true and everyone will see. So Let's stop with the personal attacks and simply focus on 1) the Word, 2) argue each others arguments, 3) actually provide arguments and not just make claims, and 4) have a healthy discussion. Can you concede to doing that?

 

[Rosinsky]

I will start by not responding to any comments you've made that have nothing to do with the topic we're discussing. My next reply to this topic will be solely on the points you've made and nothing about you.