The Rapture Thief Robs Jesuit Futurism Of The 7 Years Of Tribulation

[soberxp]

1-Thessalonians

4:15
According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

4:16
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

4:17
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

4:18
Therefore encourage each other with these words.

the
r
e
is
no
such
thing
as
raptrue
before
you
sleep
and
dead
in
christ

 

[garee]

You don't seem to realize that Babylon in those ancient days was the greatest empire on earth at the time. It conquered far more than just Israel. It conquered many nations and city states just as the text says. It's empire spread from coast to coast as seen below.

Do you even understand the purpose of the OT prophets? It wasn't to warn people of the 21st century AD about anything. It was to warn their nation about the things to come in an effort to get them to turn from their ways. Jeremiah was called to prophetic ministry c. 626 BC by YHWH to give prophecy of Jerusalem's coming destruction by invaders from the north. This was because Israel had forsaken God by worshiping the idols of Baal and for burning their children as offerings to Moloch. The nation had deviated so far from God's laws that they had broken the covenant, causing God to withdraw his blessings. Jeremiah was guided by God to proclaim that the nation of Judah would suffer famine, foreign conquest, plunder, and captivity in a land of strangers.

If all these things Jeremiah wrote 2600 years ago were intended for us, then where does he warn his people? Why were his people so angry at him and wanted to kill him if he wasn't even discussing them? Study a little history so you can get some proper context.

It would seem the word of God speaks past present and future .The spirit of the matter that was intended for them is also indented to us. All scripture is profitable building on each other to represent the gospel .from the beginning to the end

What applied in the days of Jeremiah applies to day . Its the spirit of the matter .Its not flesh and blood we do wrestle against. As Christian we walk after the spirit of faith. Christ, working in us .

The old testament saints received the end of their new born again faith from the beginning . We look back their faith looked ahead strengthening ours to move ahead

1 Peter 1 9-12 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

The same spirit of faith (Christ's) as it is written.

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

 

[Absolutely]

1-Thessalonians

4:15
According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

4:16
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

4:17
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

4:18
Therefore encourage each other with these words.

the
r
e
is
no
such
thing
as
raptrue
before
you
sleep
and
dead
in
christ

Yes the dead in Christ rise from the dead then the 5 wise virgins ascend to meet those resurrected.

Thanks for bringing that pretrib dynamic up.

 

[Truth7t7]

1-Thessalonians

4:15
According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

4:16
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

4:17
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

4:18
Therefore encourage each other with these words.

the
r
e
is
no
such
thing
as
raptrue
before
you
sleep
and
dead
in
christ

That's correct, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-16 is nothing more than the (Second Coming) and the (Last Day) resurrection.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-16KJV
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

[Truth7t7]

Sda is your starting place.

That is why you can not recincile the bride/groom dynamics.

And why you reframe rev 14.

See,once new verses are added to the wrong starting place.....the bizare reframing MUST follow.

You have too great an investment in a skewed doctrine to make the appropriate changes.

I never had that hamstrng problem.

From day one I tested all the models/positions.

What I now know is that there is built in safety in the word/bible.

Built in safety.

Part of that safety is cohesion/harmony.

Another part is the "impossibility" dynamic.

All false teaching/ positions/ doctrine/ carry alongside an "impossibility"

A single coming combined with the main rapture is such an impossibility.

So postrib is removed by the obvious.

And so it is ,we procede.

I am thankful God led me to be independent of men.

You ......not so much.

You got a tough job in reframing my verses.

A real tough job.

No hard feelings, but you have tooo much invested in a false doctrine (Dispensationalism) to see the truth of God's word below, you falsely teach 1 Thessalonians 4:14-16 is a Pre-Trib rapture

1 Thessalonians 4:14-16 is nothing more than the (Second Coming) and the (Last Day) resurrection.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-16KJV
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

[GaryA]

Well then you believe incorrectly. EARTH most frequently means the specific land/country being discussed. It almost NEVER means the entire planet.

Sorry, brother - but - you are incorrect. I looked up the entire list of words used in every single instance of the word 'earth' in my Strongs book. In every single case in the OT, the word is directly or indirectly associated with "soil"/"ground"/"land"/etc. In the NT, the word ranges from "soil"/"ground"/"land"/etc. (like or similar to OT words) all the way up to a major portion - or even all of - the earth - OR - it is in the sense of 'world' in the larger/largest sense of empires or nations (non-physical).

Now, if you want to examine more closely a specific verse (only one verse - your favorite one - to start with) where you believe 'Earth' = 'Israel', we can take a closer look...

 

[PlainWord]

It would seem the word of God speaks past present and future .The spirit of the matter that was intended for them is also indented to us. All scripture is profitable building on each other to represent the gospel .from the beginning to the end

What applied in the days of Jeremiah applies to day . Its the spirit of the matter .Its not flesh and blood we do wrestle against. As Christian we walk after the spirit of faith. Christ, working in us .

The old testament saints received the end of their new born again faith from the beginning . We look back their faith looked ahead strengthening ours to move ahead

1 Peter 1 9-12 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

The same spirit of faith (Christ's) as it is written.

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

That's all well and good but there is only one time that Nebuchadnezzar will invade Israel and lead them away captive unless you think Iraq will invade and defeat Israel again?

 

[PlainWord]

Sorry, brother - but - you are incorrect. I looked up the entire list of words used in every single instance of the word 'earth' in my Strongs book. In every single case in the OT, the word is directly or indirectly associated with "soil"/"ground"/"land"/etc. In the NT, the word ranges from "soil"/"ground"/"land"/etc. (like or similar to OT words) all the way up to a major portion - or even all of - the earth - OR - it is in the sense of 'world' in the larger/largest sense of empires or nations (non-physical).

Now, if you want to examine more closely a specific verse (only one verse - your favorite one - to start with) where you believe 'Earth' = 'Israel', we can take a closer look...

Okay, let's start with Isaiah 1:2-4. Here we see exactly which people are in focus. The prophet isn't talking to the entire planet.

2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth!
For the Lord has spoken:
“I have nourished and brought up children,
And they have rebelled against Me;
3 The ox knows its owner
And the donkey its master’s crib;
But Israel does not know,
My people do not consider.”
4 Alas, sinful nation,
A people laden with iniquity,
A brood of evildoers,
Children who are corrupters!
They have forsaken the Lord,
They have provoked to anger
The Holy One of Israel,
They have turned away backward.

 

[PlainWord]

Sorry, brother - but - you are incorrect. I looked up the entire list of words used in every single instance of the word 'earth' in my Strongs book. In every single case in the OT, the word is directly or indirectly associated with "soil"/"ground"/"land"/etc. In the NT, the word ranges from "soil"/"ground"/"land"/etc. (like or similar to OT words) all the way up to a major portion - or even all of - the earth - OR - it is in the sense of 'world' in the larger/largest sense of empires or nations (non-physical).

Now, if you want to examine more closely a specific verse (only one verse - your favorite one - to start with) where you believe 'Earth' = 'Israel', we can take a closer look...

Or, look at Isaiah 2 where I can kill three birds with one stone. Here the prophet is discussing the pending judgment which will come upon Judah at the hands of the Babylonians. Hopefully you agree at least that this is the subject matter?

THE THREE BIRDS:

1) Here we see one of the "days of the Lord" which means a day of divine judgment. There are multiple such days, at least 4 in the OT and 1 in the NT. The DOTL is NOT a singular future event.

2) Here the "earth" clearly represents Israel. God isn't coming to shake the entire planet. He is shaking or terrifying Israel. There was not a global earthquake recorded in the 6th century BC.

3) The presence of God (Shekhinah) is here for the 6th century BC judgment of Judah. He is said to be there "in the glory of His majesty." In the NT it is the presence of Christ (parousia) that comes for the 2nd desolation of Israel.

12 For the day of the Lord of hosts
Shall come upon everything proud and lofty,
Upon everything lifted up—
And it shall be brought low—
13 Upon all the cedars of Lebanon that are high and lifted up,
And upon all the oaks of Bashan;
14 Upon all the high mountains,
And upon all the hills that are lifted up;
15 Upon every high tower,
And upon every fortified wall;
16 Upon all the ships of Tarshish,
And upon all the beautiful sloops.
17 The loftiness of man shall be bowed down,
And the haughtiness of men shall be brought low;
The Lord alone will be exalted in that day,
18 But the idols He shall utterly abolish.
19 They shall go into the holes of the rocks,
And into the caves of the earth (of Israel),
From the terror of the Lord
And the glory of His majesty,
When He arises to shake the earth (terrify Israel) mightily.
20 In that day a man will cast away his idols of silver
And his idols of gold,
Which they made, each for himself to worship,
To the moles and bats,
21 To go into the clefts of the rocks,
And into the crags of the rugged rocks,
From the terror of the Lord
And the glory of His majesty,
When He arises to shake the earth (terrify Israel) mightily.

Doesn't this sound very similar to the language used to discuss what will happen to Israel again in 70 AD? We see the presence of God here as we see the presence of Christ in Mat 24:29-31 and Rev 6.

 

[Absolutely]

No hard feelings, but you have tooo much invested in a false doctrine (Dispensationalism) to see the truth of God's word below, you falsely teach 1 Thessalonians 4:14-16 is a Pre-Trib rapture

1 Thessalonians 4:14-16 is nothing more than the (Second Coming) and the (Last Day) resurrection.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-16KJV
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Pot <> Kettle

Big time

The next major apex on the horizon is the gathering of the bride.

Jesus not only frames the rapture pretrib with lot and noah but almost the next sentence is watch and be ready.

All the rapture verses are peacetime and zero is a wartime setting .

What is appalling is the omission of all our verses.

Even the Angels testify against you .

"This same Jesus will return in LIKE MANNER"

You; "no he won't my 2 verses cancel 15 others"

 

[Absolutely]

No hard feelings, but you have tooo much invested in a false doctrine (Dispensationalism) to see the truth of God's word below, you falsely teach 1 Thessalonians 4:14-16 is a Pre-Trib rapture

1 Thessalonians 4:14-16 is nothing more than the (Second Coming) and the (Last Day) resurrection.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-16KJV
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Rapture clearly not the great white throne judgement.

You are so far off my verses destroy that EASILY. Your strategy is to ignore,reframe,and minimize or change the subject.

But this morning this dynamic came to me from heaven.

Pretty much blows yet another stadium sized hole in your deal.
Heb 9
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Not in your workbook?

 

[Absolutely]

My best advice would be an open minded study with a test fit of the verses making the rapture and second coming after the gt 2 separate events.

Once you see it CAN NOT BE the same event,you can start all over in escatology.

IOW start from the correct un skewed starting place.

 

[PlainWord]

1-Thessalonians

4:15
According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

4:16
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

4:17
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

4:18
Therefore encourage each other with these words.

the
r
e
is
no
such
thing
as
raptrue
before
you
sleep
and
dead
in
christ

So much confusion. You all keep looking at only one passage. This isn't the only place Paul discusses the topic. In all other cases Paul makes clear a person must die before they go to heaven. One has to be absent from the physical body to be present with the Lord.

2 Cor 4:14 knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus, and will present us with you.

2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 Cor 5:6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Therefore in 1 Thes 4:16, those alive and remaining after the resurrection of the first century, are caught up when they die. He doesn't say when they die but that is certainly what he means. The writer of Hebrews agrees.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.

Thus we have multiple teachings of the resurrection on the last day of the previous age and we have multiple teachings that one must die before going to heaven. There is only one passage that on the surface seems to suggest a massive rapture of the living. I submit that this idea is NOT what Paul was trying to communicate otherwise he is sending conflicting messages. If there was this massive exception to this rule, we would see it mentioned in the above passages. Christ never taught it. Peter never taught it. John never taught it and neither did anyone else. You guys need to stop relying on one isolated passage that conflicts with all other teachings on the subject and consider that maybe you are misinterpreting that one isolated passage.

This is what Christ taught:

John 11:25-26. Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

He is the resurrection and life. He does not say He is also the rapturer!! He makes clear we will die but will be alive in the afterlife.

 

[PlainWord]

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?” John 11:25-26 NIV

For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 NIV

For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 1 Corinthians 15:21 NIV

For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin. Romans 6:5-6 NIV

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Revelation 20:12-13 NIV

Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. Revelation 20:6 NIV

I (Paul) believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. Acts 24:14-15 NIV

Clearly Paul wasn't expecting to be raptured in that last passage. He was looking to be resurrected. In all of the above passages, there is no mention of a rapture of the living. Can someone provide me a second rapture of the living passage to confirm what you believe is contained in 1 Thes 4:16????

 

[Truth7t7]

My best advice would be an open minded study with a test fit of the verses making the rapture and second coming after the gt 2 separate events.

Once you see it CAN NOT BE the same event,you can start all over in escatology.

IOW start from the correct un skewed starting place.

No need to start over, (Dispensationalism's) teaching that you espouse of a pre-trib rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4-14-16 below is false, it's that simple, (Pride) is the binding element to this false teaching.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-16 is nothing more than the (Second Coming) and the (Last Day) resurrection.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-16KJV
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: