The Rapture

[popeye]

You are misusing those verses for you are claiming the man of sin kills all without the mark, but that is completely false as the bible clearly shows some still alive when the Lord returns.

The scriptures also say when He returns the dead will rise first then those who are "alive" will be risen up.
This is clearly shown to be at His second coming by Apostle Paul in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians. If all w/o the mark is killed as you claim then there would be nobody alive to be caught up as Paul says.

No,actually you just recklessly run several dimensions together and then wildly accuse me of what you do.

EARLY ON IN THE GT the 144k are sealed in their foreheads. The Church is Gone and those left behind are gone.

But YOU CLAIM everybody is still here right?

Then why in the world is this verse even there?:

rev 9
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Where is the command to the flying scorpions to not sting the saints?????
Could it be they are gone???
Oh,no,that truth is completely off the table,right?

Now you say John was mindlessly babbling nonsense when he wrote that all w/o the mark die,right?


7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.


15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Your theory is poorly thought out.

 

[popeye]

No we agree with what the word of God says and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

The Word of God says we will not face His wrath, not the persecution of the great tribulation, and the great tribulation is not God's wrath as that happens after that 3 1/2 years.

That wrath/trib nonsense is pulled out of thin air.

here is some common sense words of heaven you might want to factor in;
Dan 9
13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.
14 Therefore hath the Lord watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for theLord our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.
15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.
16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.

That proves the hand of man (that would include the AC) IS USED IN DELIVERING THE WRATH OF GOD.

That "wrath is not tribulation" mess is yet another falsehood of you guys that the word debunks.

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave said : What you say is True. The reason i adamantly teach against pre-trib is because of this verse.

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

That falling away that must happen first, before Christ Returns, are millions of people falling away from the Faith. Because the Trubulation Period starts and Jesus DID NOT COME, as the millions of Christians thought He should have based on what they were told by preachers (men). It will not help that the anti-christ will be saying on TV world wide, "Where is your God now?" After the wrath of God comes upon the whole Earth. Not only will the people in the Christian Faith fall away, but people all over the World, of every Faith, will fall away because of the destruction of the Earth, the wrath of God coming upon ALL the disobedient (those who disobey) children of God.

So i know, that most Christians who FALL AWAY from the Faith, will be those who believe pretrib. And when He does NOT Return and Rapture them, as they (falsely) believed He would, they will fall away, many will then believe there is no God at all, and will believe the man which brings all people, regardless of religion together, under a new banner, NOT a religious banner, but a HUMAN banner, Anyone who believes in any kind of religion will be outcasts. Stand Strong though, those who continue to believe, because Jesus is coming, and He will come during the Tribulation Period, right at the time when the 7 year peace treaty is broken, and the mark of the beast is made mandatory, and the antichrist is revealed by standing in the Holy of Hollies. Then He Returns. Then the vials are poured out to wipe the wicked off the planet, making room for the 144,000 that the Saints rule over for a thousand years.

Responding to post # 128

I have to disagree with you on that. In fact it's sorta a insult.
Suppose the rapture takes place at pre-trib and now it has to be explained away.
Now people that thought they were good enough find themselves left behind as it were.
How do you think they would react? Or do they believe in the lie they were told?
You post it as we have less faith than mid or post trib folks. On the contrary this is my hope that keeps me going.

You do not disagree with me, but disagree with God who told me these things. What is that to me, if you do not believe God speaks to people today as He has always done in the past, and will continue to do forever.

So you disagree, show me one Scriptures that contradict what God has told me. You can't, why? because what God told me, lines up with Scriptures perfectly, you disagree because what God told me, does not line up with what YOU believe is the Truth.

Responding to post # 252

 

[popeye]

You do not disagree with me, but disagree with God who told me these things. What is that to me, if you do not believe God speaks to people today as He has always done in the past, and will continue to do forever.

So you disagree, show me one Scriptures that contradict what God has told me. You can't, why? because what God told me, lines up with Scriptures perfectly, you disagree because what God told me, does not line up with what YOU believe is the Truth.

Responding to post # 252

Ok,you are not God.

Stop acting like you have the divine words of God. That is nonsense. I already showed you you were wrong.

You actually attack God's character when you falsely interpret verses and then act as though God himself is in your back pocket.

 

[popeye]

What you say is True. The reason i adamantly teach against pre-trib is because of this verse.

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

That falling away that must happen first, before Christ Returns, are millions of people falling away from the Faith. Because the Trubulation Period starts and Jesus DID NOT COME, as the millions of Christians thought He should have based on what they were told by preachers (men). It will not help that the anti-christ will be saying on TV world wide, "Where is your God now?" After the wrath of God comes upon the whole Earth. Not only will the people in the Christian Faith fall away, but people all over the World, of every Faith, will fall away because of the destruction of the Earth, the wrath of God coming upon ALL the disobedient (those who disobey) children of God.

So i know, that most Christians who FALL AWAY from the Faith, will be those who believe pretrib. And when He does NOT Return and Rapture them, as they (falsely) believed He would, they will fall away, many will then believe there is no God at all, and will believe the man which brings all people, regardless of religion together, under a new banner, NOT a religious banner, but a HUMAN banner, Anyone who believes in any kind of religion will be outcasts. Stand Strong though, those who continue to believe, because Jesus is coming, and He will come during the Tribulation Period, right at the time when the 7 year peace treaty is broken, and the mark of the beast is made mandatory, and the antichrist is revealed by standing in the Holy of Hollies. Then He Returns. Then the vials are poured out to wipe the wicked off the planet, making room for the 144,000 that the Saints rule over for a thousand years.

Responding to post # 128

What you say is True. The reason i adamantly teach against pre-trib is because of this verse.

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

That falling away that must happen first, before Christ Returns, are millions of people falling away from the Faith. Because the Trubulation Period starts and Jesus DID NOT COME,

"falling away" isn't even there.

It literally says "a departure first" or "a leaving first"

You have no iron clad case at all,and according to you ,you build your whole end times interpretation on a shaky verse.

I personally think the translators could be right and it is speaking of a mass whoredom with believers. After all most are money (mammon) centered ,(and I am not even referring to WOFers),but either way,that verse IN NO WAY is pivotal for any doctrine.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Greetings DiscipleDave,


DiscipleDave said

So i know, that most Christians who FALL AWAY from the Faith, will be those who believe pretrib.

What you said above is an erroneous assumption!

Any Scriptures to prove what i said is erroneous? Or is it your opinion that what i said is erroneous. It has to be your opinion, because not one verse in Scriptures contradicts what i teach on this matter.

I will speak for myself as one who believes that the Lord will come pre-trib.

So this is what you believe, YOU, not what the Holy Ghost has revealed to you, NOT what God has told you, but you are about to tell us what you personally believe to be True, based on your own intellect and your own understanding, please continue;

If, and I say if for the benefit of this debate, if I as one who believes that Christ will return pre-trib and I see on CNN that man of lawlessness make his seven year covenant, I would know exactly who he is and would realize that I had misinterpreted God's word

Now you are a witness against your own self. Who are YOU to interpret the Word of God? Is it not written in the Word of God that only God interprets? Yes it is. Don't you see and understand, it is because man started interpreting the Word of God for themselves that so many false doctrines have come about. God interprets The Word of God, NOT MEN. You say above that the man of lawlessness makes his seven year covenant, Where does this doctrine come from? This is not Scriptural at all. Who told you, it was his covenant? It is not his covenant, he makes no covenants. Now Israel and the Muslim nations they make a peace agreement between themselves, which allows Israel to rebuild their temple. Also do you think satan is an idiot? stupid? dumb? The Word teaches that the whole world will follow after the antichrist, and those who take the mark are deceived into taking the mark, (tricked) even now satan is teaching people it is not a physical mark, so when the physical mark does show up, nobody will believe it is the mark of the beast. It will be only a very few who will know he is the antichrist, even the Jews will think this man is the Son of God and profess him to be God, it is only when this man goes into the Holy and Holies, that they realize who this man truly is.

and would begin to pray that God would give me strength to go through everything that is coming and to be prepared to die keeping the testimony of Jesus and to resist the beast, his image and his mark. And I am sure that there many who take this same position. Why would you think that just because prophecy didn't happen in the order that a person is expecting that they'e just gonna throw up their hands and turn their backs on Jesus.

Are you serious? i have seen the most devoted Christian i have ever known turn atheist because of how her grandmother suffered a long painful death. i have seen Christians lose faith in God when they lose a child to disease, i have seen Christians lose faith because they get a boil on their tushy, and ask God "Why me Lord?" Are you serious?
The Tribulations start, half the state of California falls off into the ocean, millions dead. countries lose power, and millions freeze to death. Earthquakes happen all over the Earth, and such Earthquakes as never have been seen before in magnitude, nor ever will be again, happen all over the Earth. Meteor shower doesn't just show up the sky, they all hit the Earth, millions die. Tsunamis all over the planet killing millions more, Trees are on fire everywhere. The sun bursts out solar flares towards the Earth so strong that all grass on the planet is burnt, and you think people are not going to turn away from God? Billions of Christians believed that Christ was going to come BEFORE the tribulations, this is what they were taught their whole lives, it is what they full 100% believed, despite those who plainly told them otherwise. And now the whole world is wobbling in orbit, like a drunkard. Days are 4 hours shorter, nights are four hours shorter, the weather is crazy, hail the size of apples. floods in deserts, drought in the tropical, swamps in the plains, ice and snow in the pacific, 140 degree temperatures at the poles. North has become south, south is north. All this is going on in the World, the Wrath of God has come upon the children of disobedience (those who disobey). Billions believed Jesus would come Before the world went crazy, Billions falsely believed the Church would not be here for this devastation, they all will believe they were wrong. And then the antichrist will come over the airways and say "Where is your God now?" He will say, there is not God, if there were a God would he not have prevented all this from happening? Where is your God now? he will say, Many, and i say many will fall away from the Faith, not only the Christian Faith, but all faiths in the world will fall away from their beliefs. Jesus did not come, because there is no God, it was all a lie, Not True, False. What kind of God would allow all this destruction? he is right, there is no God, if there was, He would have came and got us (pre-trib). Are you serious? people drop from the faith today for trivial reasons, wait to the Tribulation Period starts and they will drop like rain, and a hard rain at that.

If anything, seeing that man of lawlessness would be an affirmation of the truth and accuracy of the word of God.

You do error in thinking the antichrist is going to be so easily recognized. The Word says the whole world follows after him, Why? Because they do not believe he is the antichrist.

According to Jesus, the reason for the "falling away" will be because of persecution and the threat of death and not because scripture didn't happen in the right order.

Where are you getting this stuff? What Scriptures teach that the falling away is because of what you just said Jesus said? It is not according to Jesus, it is according to YOU, that you believe that is what the falling away is, and what the falling away means, it is NOT according to Jesus, and if you think so, then reveal the Scriptures that teach that. i have read the entire Bible in its entirety over 80 times in my life, and i know what you just said above is NOT according to Jesus, but according to your own interpretations, what YOU THINK.


Responding to post

 

[tanach]

I find your response very confusing. How can a word meaning to fly be like a Bud breaking forth? What is a false salvation? You are either saved or not. If there is a false one how do you know you have it? Salvation is by faith. Also as I understand it the rapture is connected with the seven years mentioned in Daniel not the end of the Millenium. You think the battle is materialism. I dont' know why you should think that. I have never heard anyone else come up with that interpretation. Looking at world history including WW1 and WW2 do you honestly believe that Satan has been in prison for the past thousand years?

 

[DiscipleDave]

"except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

[/COLOR]Though it would appear that the verse above is stating that the order of events is the falling away, the man of sin being revealed, then the appearing of the Lord, I don't believe that this is the order.

Are you suggesting that i not believe the Word of God and the order the Word of God says it will be, and listen to you, which believes it is in some other order which is contrary to the Word of God, is that what you are asking me to do. believe you and what you believe and not what the Bible plainly says?

The reason being is that when we read further down, we see the following:

What it says farther down does not CHANGE what it plainly says above. You do greatly error in this manner of interpretation. Here is the Truth. If what you believe contradicts even one verse in Scriptures then what you believe is WRONG. You can't CHANGE what one verse plainly says, because you interpret another verse to say it means something different. you do error in doing this to the Word of God. Interpretations belong to God NOT to men.

"Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till [he] is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming."

None of what was just said CHANGES the order that Jesus gave us. Only your interpretation of what was just said CHANGES the order.

So, there is currently One who is restraining the full force of sin and who is also restraining the man of lawlessness from being revealed until his proper time. I for one believe that the One who is restraining is none other than the Holy Spirit and if the restrainer is to be taken out of the way, then those who the Holy Spirit dwells in must also be removed.

That is your opinion that they are also removed, something you believe which is not backed up by Scriptures. Again, this is an interpretation of man, not given to you by God. Or even the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Truth, has the Holy Ghost told you these things, or are these things something you, with your own intellect, are coming up with, based on YOUR interpretations of what the Word of God says?

Therefore, the order would be the apostasy, Restrainer/church removed, then that man of lawlessness is revealed.

So then according to you, what Jesus said is actually wrong, based on YOUR interpretation of the Scriptures farther down, is that correct?

The Ekklesia/Church is mentioned over twenty times from Rev.1 to the very end of Rev.3 with no mention of the Hagios/Saints within those chapters.

i see, so then because there is no mention of the Saints, YOU interpret that to mean, they are GONE, Raptured, Removed. Scriptures interprets Scriptures, so show me Scriptures that teach if the Saints are not mentioned, then that means they are Gone. So then i am seeing a pattern here. Scriptures do not interpret these things, but you of your own self interpret Scriptures to mean those things.

From Rev.4 on the word Ekklesia/church is never seen again after John is taken up into heaven and within the narrative.

Now i am seeing YOU interpret that to mean the CHURCH is gone too, because it is not mentioned after John had a vision of Heaven. Again YOUR interpretation, an interpretation of man, and not of God.

The church is who is in view from Rev.1 thru 3 and the great tribulation saints are who those who are in view from Rev.4 on. The question has to be asked, why does the word church never appear within the narrative after the end of chapter 3?

lol, i could ask the same question, why does none of Revelation mention pizza, does that mean pizzas are not real? i am not trying to be funny, but am serious. Just because the word Church is not mentioned in those chapter DOES NOT MEAN they are raptured, That is man's interpretation that they are gone because they are not mentioned in those chapters, using the same exact logic, i could come up with many false doctrines using the same logic. i could say water baptism should be ceased because not one chapter in Revelation mentions water baptism therefore it must be done away with. Do you see the error in that?

There are plenty of places where the word Church can be replaced by the word saints, but it never is. The answer is because the church is removed at Rev.4:1, which is prior to the first seal being opened, which is that counterfeit rider on the white horse, that antichrist. The church will never see that antichrist, but will have been removed prior to his being revealed.

NONE of what you just said here and believe to be True, is Scriptural? From where then does it come from? It comes from the mind of men and not backed up by Scriptures.

Please show us where in Scripture it is stated that Jesus will come in the middle of the tribulation period when the 7 year peace treaty is broken. You won't find it. You can't have Jesus returning before the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments have all been completed and that because Jesus interjects the following after the 6th bowl has been poured out:

This is how it was told to me, and it is from God, NOT from my own intellect, or from my own thoughts, or from my own interpretations, but is what God told me.

There will be 7 seals broken, the 7th seal broken will start the 7 Trumpets. At the 7th Trumpet, the Lord Returns and gathers up the Church to be with Him, and we are with Him in the New City Jerusalem that comes down from Heaven. At the 7th Trumpet sounding the Temple in Heaven is opened and the 7 angels with the 7 vials come out of that Temple. At this time the 7 vials are poured out upon all those who were not taken up at the 7th Trumpet, the 7 vials are to wipe mankind (the wicked, the evil, those who were left behind) off the Earth. The 7 year Tribulation Period consists of some of the seals, all of the Trumpets, and all of the vials. 7 seals are opened, 7 trumpets are blown, 7 vials are poured out on the Earth. Christ takes the Church at the last Trumpet sounding, then there are 7 vials left after that. Christ comes during the 7 year Tribulation Period. This is what was told to me by God, and of a Truth, not ONE part of it, contradicts any verse in Scriptures, What it does contradict though, is what man believes is the Truth, it contradicts the interpretations of men. But what i said above is from God, not me, as if i had the authority to interpret the Word of God. ONLY God can interpret the Word of God, and God will reveal to whom He will reveal it. Again what i have said does not contradict even one verse in Scriptures, it only contradicts what YOU believe is the Truth based on YOUR own interpretations of what YOU think the Truth is.

"

Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” (Rev.16:15)

The above clearly demonstrates that Jesus will not have returned prior to the seven bowl judgment.

If it clearly demonstrates what you say, How is it, i am not seeing is clearly demonstrated at all? Tell me how does Rev 16:15 CLEARLY demonstrates that Jesus does not return prior to the seven bowl judgments? Matters of fact i could use the same logic that you use, saying that the Church and Saints are Gone because they are not mentioned in Revelation chapter such and such, by saying "Tell me where the Church or the Saints are mentioned one time in any of the bowl judgements? They are not mentioned once, so then according to your own logic, they are GONE.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are all to be consider as the wrath of God and that because Jesus is the One who is opening the seals which leads into the rest of God's wrath which are the trumpets and the bowl judgments. The Male child is a collective name for the 144,000 who are the first fruits to God out of Israel, who will be caught up to God and his throne in the middle of the seven year period. They will have been caught up in the same manner as the living church will have been caught up previously.

So NOW you are teaching there are TWO Raptures? Are you serious? Brother, you need to stop thinking you are are all that, and realize it is not the place of man to Interpret the Word of God, you, me, nor any man is worthy to interpret the Word of God, ONLY God does that, STOP doing it, because i will tell you the Truth, your thinking is messed up, and most assuredly does NOT line up with Scriptures. STOP interpreting the Word of God, pray to the Holy Ghost to reveal Truth to you, Stop seeking it via your own intellect.

The church will never see the man of lawlessness

Says YOu, not the Word of God. Is it Gods fault that you do not believe His Word which says:

2Th_2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

How are you NOT trying to deceive me into believing something other that what Jesus plainly says in this verse above. Are you not teaching things contrary to what Jesus Himself plainly teaches, and why are you teaching those things, NOT because it was divinely inspired upon you, not because it was told to you by God, not because you had a vision, or a dream, you are teaching these things, because YOU think it is the Truth. Sorry, brother, i will continue to believe what Jesus said, and not what you are teaching. Jesus plainly teaches, no interpretation needed, that the man of sin is revealed FIRST, you are teaching things contrary to what Jesus Himself plainly said. Sorry Jesus is right, you are wrong.

People, listen, If anyone (not specifically referring to Ahwatukee) is teaching anything that is contrary to any verse in Scriptures, do NOT hearken to that person, they do not know the Truth, but only THINK they do, they are deceived and know not the Truth, do NOT listen to them. Again, If what they teach contradicts any verse in Scriptures, then do not listen to them, they are false teachers, spreading their own false doctrines.

^i^ Responding to post # 254

 

[DiscipleDave]

Originally Posted by DiscipleDave

What you say is True. The reason i adamantly teach against pre-trib is because of this verse.

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

That falling away that must happen first, before Christ Returns, are millions of people falling away from the Faith. Because the Trubulation Period starts and Jesus DID NOT COME, as the millions of Christians thought He should have based on what they were told by preachers (men). It will not help that the anti-christ will be saying on TV world wide, "Where is your God now?" After the wrath of God comes upon the whole Earth. Not only will the people in the Christian Faith fall away, but people all over the World, of every Faith, will fall away because of the destruction of the Earth, the wrath of God coming upon ALL the disobedient (those who disobey) children of God.

So i know, that most Christians who FALL AWAY from the Faith, will be those who believe pretrib. And when He does NOT Return and Rapture them, as they (falsely) believed He would, they will fall away, many will then believe there is no God at all, and will believe the man which brings all people, regardless of religion together, under a new banner, NOT a religious banner, but a HUMAN banner, Anyone who believes in any kind of religion will be outcasts. Stand Strong though, those who continue to believe, because Jesus is coming, and He will come during the Tribulation Period, right at the time when the 7 year peace treaty is broken, and the mark of the beast is made mandatory, and the antichrist is revealed by standing in the Holy of Hollies. Then He Returns. Then the vials are poured out to wipe the wicked off the planet, making room for the 144,000 that the Saints rule over for a thousand years.

Responding to post # 128

Nope. 100% wrong. The AC kills all w/o the mark early in the GT. There is nobody alive to rapture at that point.
The 10 virgin parable has no such setting of a man of sin boogey man chasing saints all over the planet.

You have no traction on your theory or your snide little personal shots against the body of Christ that are IN LINE WITH WATCHING AND WAITING WHILE "NOAH'S HECKLERS" MOCK AND RIDICULE US.

You have set yourself up to watch and wait for the false christ.
Your faith will bring your own results.

You continue to believe as you do, and i will continue to teach what God told me.
Tell me, is it God's fault that the people in this last days generation does not believe God speaks to His children any more? i KNOW what God has told me in conversation, what He has told me, i have told you, if you do not believe, it is not i that you disagree with, but Him who told me these things, and everyone has the right to choose if they want to believe the Truth or not believe the Truth.

^i^ Responding to post Number 255

 

[DiscipleDave]

Pottersclay responding to DiscipleDave

Originally Posted by pottersclay

I have to disagree with you on that. In fact it's sorta a insult.
Suppose the rapture takes place at pre-trib and now it has to be explained away.
Now people that thought they were good enough find themselves left behind as it were.
How do you think they would react? Or do they believe in the lie they were told?
You post it as we have less faith than mid or post trib folks. On the contrary this is my hope that keeps me going.

He intended it to insult you.
....and myself.

How can you possibly say that i intended to insult either one of you? Now the Truth has always insulted those who do not know the Truth.

There is a pattern with anti-pretribs. They love the rabbit trails of condescension,and going personal.

This is ironic, you say that it is i, that has taken it personal, yet you say of me, that i specifically have intended to insult you. Who is taking things to a personal level? Have i said anything at all personally to you popeye? name it, if i have did this. have i said one thing personally to you pottersclay? if i have name it. Popeye you claim that i have went personal, yet can't tell me one incident or one statement where i have said anything at all that was personally to you or to pottersclay, yet in the same breath you went personal on me by saying that i personally intended to insult you and pottersclay. i forgive you popeye, i really do.

The reason is,the "teachers" that "teach" them despise the body of Christ that hold to the truth of pretrib rapture.

There is not one Scripture that teaches pre-trib rapture, not even one. If you think there is, then reveal it, so that others may believe the Truth as you claim it. Now men, who have decided they are worthy enough to interpret the Word of God, are they who interpret the Word of God to mean there is a pretrib rapture, but that is just that, man's interpretation, show me one verse that teaches pre-trib? You can't, do you know how i know you can't, because i have read the entire Bible over 80 times in my life, and i know there is not one verse that teaches pretrib. It is a false doctrine which satan has started, so that millions of people will fall away from the Faith when the Tribulation does Start and Jesus did not Return. Now Scriptures does teach this, that the Church will go through some of the Tribulations but not all of it. Believe the Scriptures and what they teach, do not believe what men teach, that Scriptures does not teach. Men teach pretrib, Scriptures does not teach pretrib. Those who believe pretrib can't possibly believe what the Word of God plainly teaches. Because the Word of God and pretrib are contrary one to the other.

^i^ REsponding to post # 256

 

[DiscipleDave]

Originally Posted by DiscipleDave

You do not disagree with me, but disagree with God who told me these things. What is that to me, if you do not believe God speaks to people today as He has always done in the past, and will continue to do forever.

So you disagree, show me one Scriptures that contradict what God has told me. You can't, why? because what God told me, lines up with Scriptures perfectly, you disagree because what God told me, does not line up with what YOU believe is the Truth.

Responding to post # 252

Ok,you are not God.

Stop acting like you have the divine words of God. That is nonsense. I already showed you you were wrong.

You actually attack God's character when you falsely interpret verses and then act as though God himself is in your back pocket.

And what if Gold actually did converse with me and tell me these things? Oh wait, you can't possibly believe that, can you, because it does not line up with what YOU believe is the Truth. Now if i would have said God told me something that you do agree with, then you would believe right, but only as long as it lines up with what you believe right? So who thinks they have the Truth wrapped up their back pockets? You do not believe God told me those things, because you (YOU) do not believe the things which i said, none of which things i have said is contrary to any Scriptures, only contrary to what YOU think is the Truth.

Love you Brother, will pray for you, i will.

^i^ Responding to post # 264

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave said

What you say is True. The reason i adamantly teach against pre-trib is because of this verse.

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

That falling away that must happen first, before Christ Returns, are millions of people falling away from the Faith. Because the Trubulation Period starts and Jesus DID NOT COME,

"falling away" isn't even there.

The Bible (KJV) that satan tried to burn and destroy and God protected, says "falling away"
The Bible (KJV) that has been around for over 400 years now, says "falling away"
The Bible (KJV) that thousands of our brothers and sisters in the past were SAVED by, says "falling away"
The Bible (KJV) that thousands of our brothers and sisters in the past have called the Word of God, says "falling away"
The Bible (KJV) that hundreds and hundreds of our brothers and sisters were martyred over says "falling away"
The Bible (KJV) that will still be here when Christ Returns says "falling away"
Sorry Brother i will continue to believe the Word of God and it says "falling away" despite what man will say the Word of God says and means based on their own interpretations.

It literally says "a departure first" or "a leaving first"

which last days version are you reading brother? What i mean is, that the KJV has been around for over 400 years now, it is only the last days generation that thought it was no longer good enough, and needed to be interpreted the right way, a better interpretation than our brothers and sisters had for over 400 years. You know the hundreds of versions that are here today, which version are you using right now? be careful, maybe you will find a better version tomorrow, you know one that will fit more into what you believe is the Truth. There coming up with new versions all the time, just keeping reading different versions until you find one that lines up with what you personally believe the Truth is. My question is , which version is lining up with your own beliefs today?

You have no iron clad case at all,and according to you ,you build your whole end times interpretation on a shaky verse.

Clearly you do not know what i teach. i teach that interpretations do not belong to men at all, that would include myself as well. Scriptures plainly teach interpretation belong to God, NOT to men. Therefore the men who try to interpret the Word of God are under the yoke of satan, because men are not to interpret the Word of God, Scriptures interpret Scriptures. God interprets the Word of God, so i do not interpret the Word of God at all, it is not my place, nor am i able to do so. i am not worthy to interpret the Word of God.

And clearly you are not listening to what i have stated in previous posts. i am not building my whole end times interpretation on a shaky verse, as you say, i have made it quite clear, and gave the credit to whom the credit goes to and that is to God, if i say what i teach comes from me, then i would be a liar, but if i tell the Truth and say what i teach is what He told me, then i am telling the Truth and am no liar, for Rev 21:8 is clear that ALL LIARS shall burn in the lake of fire and brimstone. So then i tell the Truth, even though i am mocked, made fun of, because i do so. Do you know how idiotic it sounds by saying "God told me" i KNOW how it sounds, but i also KNOW it is the TRUTH.

I personally think the translators could be right and it is speaking of a mass whoredom with believers. After all most are money (mammon) centered ,(and I am not even referring to WOFers),but either way,that verse IN NO WAY is pivotal for any doctrine.

You are correct, that particular verse is NOT pivotal for any doctrine, nor have i said it was. i have said though that the main reason i teach against tribulations is because of that verse. Because it was told me what the Falling away was, when i asked Him about those who fall away. That is when He told me about the lie of satan teaching pretrib, and that many would fall away when the Tribulation starts because He does not come when most people thought He should have. This then made me ask many more questions, because at that time, i believed 100% the pretrib belief. Again here is an indisputable Truth, there are NO Scriptures that teach pretrib. If you think there is, then reveal it.

^i^ responding to post # 265

 

[KennethC]

No,actually you just recklessly run several dimensions together and then wildly accuse me of what you do.

EARLY ON IN THE GT the 144k are sealed in their foreheads. The Church is Gone and those left behind are gone.

But YOU CLAIM everybody is still here right?

Then why in the world is this verse even there?:

rev 9
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Where is the command to the flying scorpions to not sting the saints?????
Could it be they are gone???
Oh,no,that truth is completely off the table,right?

Now you say John was mindlessly babbling nonsense when he wrote that all w/o the mark die,right?


7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.


15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Your theory is poorly thought out.

You just proved yourself wrong in the two scriptural passages you use here, as you claim by Revelation 9:3-4 the Saints are gone.

Yet your next set of scriptures from Revelation 13:7-10 shows the Saints are still here on earth, as this passage is on the great tribulation.

Revelation 13:10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The saints can not be gone in chapter 9 if chapter 13 shows them still here in the great tribulation.

Then the other faulty thing you do with biblical prophecy which is common is using the word "all" to mean everybody on earth when the bible does not necessarily do that in all cases. Your usage of Revelation 13:16 is a proof of this, as the all there does not mean all people on earth. It means people from all different backgrounds rich or poor alike !!!

That wrath/trib nonsense is pulled out of thin air.

here is some common sense words of heaven you might want to factor in;
Dan 9
13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.
14 Therefore hath the Lord watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for theLord our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.
15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.
16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.

That proves the hand of man (that would include the AC) IS USED IN DELIVERING THE WRATH OF GOD.

That "wrath is not tribulation" mess is yet another falsehood of you guys that the word debunks.

Your understanding is completely false understanding here, as these passages in Daniel 9 does not prove God's wrath mentioned in Revelation is delivered by the man of sin or any other man. Revelation 16:1 clearly says 7 angels are charged with pouring out this wrath of God on the earth, not a man or men.

The wrath of God taking place at the end of the great tribulation is not pulled out of thin air, and a statement like that only shows one has not dove into all the prophecy books in the bible for understanding. Daniel 12:11-12 speaks on this same period of time of the great tribulation, but instead of mentioning 1,260 days (42 months) the man of sin is given as Revelation 13:5 he mentions 1,290 and 1,335 days.

Why is there a difference in time span from the A.O.D. set up to the Lord's return in Daniel 12:11-12 and Revelation 13:5 ???

Because Daniel includes the wrath of God and Armageddon into the equation that takes place after the period allocated to the man of sin !!!