The Rapture
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KenneithC,
The problem that you run into by trying to make the resurrection and catching away synonymous with Christ's return to the earth to end the age, is that you would be putting the church through the entire wrath of God and that's not going to happen. Furthermore, regarding the resurrection mentioned in Rev.20:4, there is no mention of a catching away, but only a resurrection of those who will have been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and word of God and because they will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark on their hands or foreheads. This would also demonstrated that those who are beheaded and resurrected will be from the time period of the beast. These are the great the great tribulation saints.
Speaking regarding the nature of God, why would God build his church and then send them through the time of his wrath? In the letter to the Philadelphia Jesus said, "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." The words translate "keep you from" is the word "Ek" which means "out of" that is, I will keep you "out of" the hour of trial that going to come upon the whole world.
This hour of trial is synonymous with the day of the Lord. It is an unprecedented time where God will be pouring out his wrath and decimating the population of the earth. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are, for one, in fulfillment of the following:
"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth,”“When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,” declares the Lord."
“I will sweep away both man and beast;
I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—
and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble."
“When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,” (Zeph.1:1-2)
Also
"I will make man scarcer that pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir." (Isa.13:12)
The problem is that people don't differentiate between common trial and tribulation which comes at the hands of men with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background from the wrath that is going to come from God. He is going to decimate the population of the earth and dismantle human government to make way for his kingdom. After Paul describes the resurrection and catching away, he then tells them and us "Therefore, comfort each with these words." If the church was to be put through God's wrath, there would be no comforting one another.
Conclusion: The resurrection and catching away of the church will take place prior to God's wrath being poured which will take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments
The problem that you run into by trying to make the resurrection and catching away synonymous with Christ's return to the earth to end the age, is that you would be putting the church through the entire wrath of God and that's not going to happen. Furthermore, regarding the resurrection mentioned in Rev.20:4, there is no mention of a catching away, but only a resurrection of those who will have been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and word of God and because they will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark on their hands or foreheads. This would also demonstrated that those who are beheaded and resurrected will be from the time period of the beast. These are the great the great tribulation saints.
Speaking regarding the nature of God, why would God build his church and then send them through the time of his wrath? In the letter to the Philadelphia Jesus said, "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." The words translate "keep you from" is the word "Ek" which means "out of" that is, I will keep you "out of" the hour of trial that going to come upon the whole world.
This hour of trial is synonymous with the day of the Lord. It is an unprecedented time where God will be pouring out his wrath and decimating the population of the earth. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are, for one, in fulfillment of the following:
"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth,”“When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,” declares the Lord."
“I will sweep away both man and beast;
I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—
and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble."
“When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,” (Zeph.1:1-2)
Also
"I will make man scarcer that pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir." (Isa.13:12)
The problem is that people don't differentiate between common trial and tribulation which comes at the hands of men with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background from the wrath that is going to come from God. He is going to decimate the population of the earth and dismantle human government to make way for his kingdom. After Paul describes the resurrection and catching away, he then tells them and us "Therefore, comfort each with these words." If the church was to be put through God's wrath, there would be no comforting one another.
Conclusion: The resurrection and catching away of the church will take place prior to God's wrath being poured which will take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments
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K
The underlined and enlarged about is not true because the 1st Resurrection takes place at the Lords return, as He pulls believers up to meet Him in the air so that God's wrath can be poured out.
The whole great tribulation is not God's wrath, for that takes place at the end of the great tribulation along with Armageddon.
The purpose for the Lord to return is to cut the days short that not all are killed, for the man of sin is given 1,260 days to persecute and kill Christians and Jews both.
The book of Daniel mentions 1,290 days and 1, 335 days, and the reason for this is because those extra 30 and 45 days are for Armageddon and God's wrath.
The Church will not go through God's wrath but will be still here when the tribulation is going on !!!
The whole great tribulation is not God's wrath, for that takes place at the end of the great tribulation along with Armageddon.
The purpose for the Lord to return is to cut the days short that not all are killed, for the man of sin is given 1,260 days to persecute and kill Christians and Jews both.
The book of Daniel mentions 1,290 days and 1, 335 days, and the reason for this is because those extra 30 and 45 days are for Armageddon and God's wrath.
The Church will not go through God's wrath but will be still here when the tribulation is going on !!!
I
The Fig Tree is always a symbol of Israel. The Olive Tree is a symbol of all believers.
"Now learn a parable or the fig tree" (24:32). The fig tree is the tree of self-righteousness. It is the only tree that God ever cursed (Gen.3; Matt.21:19-20).
It stands for religious Israel without the fruit (Jer.24:2,5,8), exactly as it stood in Eden for man's attempt top cover his righteousness with dead works and not fruit (Luke 13:6-9).
The parable speaks of the revival of national Israel. "When his branch is yet tender," that was fulfilled in 1948. "Trees" in the OT are likened to KINGS and KINGDOMS (Judg.9:7-14; Ezek.15, 17, 19, 31; Dan.4). The FIG TREE is Israel.
(24:33). "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things." The "these things" refer to the events in vs.15, 20-21, 24, 27, 29, and 31. The "it" in v.33 in "that it is near" can only refer to the Second Advent of Our Lord.
There is only two Resurrections:
1st Resurrection - Believers in Christ
2nd Resurrection - Those who will stand before God at the great white judgment throne, threat of facing the second death.[/QUOTE]
I never seperated the 1st resurrection from the gathering/rapture. I seperated the wicked from the 1st resurrection gathering/rapture.
In Matt.24:32 Jesus says "he shall send his angels and they shall gather his "elect" and in Matt. "elect refers to Israel".
Matt. introduces the reader to the coming Christ (Messiah) to Israel as their King.It occupies a unique place in the canon of Scripture, it has a Jewish flavor of such intensity that little in it can be applied doctrinally to Gentiles or to the Gentile believer.
Matthew's Jewish slant is apparent on every page of the book with the beginning of the genealogy with Abraham, in the very first chapter, as to the purpose of the author.
He is giving "the gospel" from the standpoint of an Old Testament Hebrew who is anxiously awaiting the appearance of the "annointed one", the Messiah. It's a logical link between Malachi and the events about to take place around the the first appearence of our Incarnate Lord.
We are coming from thirty-nine Jewish books which concern the "calling-out" of a chosen people from Abraham, to twenty-seven books which deal primarily with Gentiles called out among the nations, "to be a people for God's name (Acts 15:14).
It is fitting that a "gospel" should be inserted which would give us a bridge, or transition, from a Jewish economy to the Chruch composed of Jew and Gentile.
Where do people's spirit's go that have been slain if they are believers?
"Now learn a parable or the fig tree" (24:32). The fig tree is the tree of self-righteousness. It is the only tree that God ever cursed (Gen.3; Matt.21:19-20).
It stands for religious Israel without the fruit (Jer.24:2,5,8), exactly as it stood in Eden for man's attempt top cover his righteousness with dead works and not fruit (Luke 13:6-9).
The parable speaks of the revival of national Israel. "When his branch is yet tender," that was fulfilled in 1948. "Trees" in the OT are likened to KINGS and KINGDOMS (Judg.9:7-14; Ezek.15, 17, 19, 31; Dan.4). The FIG TREE is Israel.
(24:33). "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things." The "these things" refer to the events in vs.15, 20-21, 24, 27, 29, and 31. The "it" in v.33 in "that it is near" can only refer to the Second Advent of Our Lord.
There is only two Resurrections:
1st Resurrection - Believers in Christ
2nd Resurrection - Those who will stand before God at the great white judgment throne, threat of facing the second death.[/QUOTE]
I never seperated the 1st resurrection from the gathering/rapture. I seperated the wicked from the 1st resurrection gathering/rapture.
In Matt.24:32 Jesus says "he shall send his angels and they shall gather his "elect" and in Matt. "elect refers to Israel".
Matt. introduces the reader to the coming Christ (Messiah) to Israel as their King.It occupies a unique place in the canon of Scripture, it has a Jewish flavor of such intensity that little in it can be applied doctrinally to Gentiles or to the Gentile believer.
Matthew's Jewish slant is apparent on every page of the book with the beginning of the genealogy with Abraham, in the very first chapter, as to the purpose of the author.
He is giving "the gospel" from the standpoint of an Old Testament Hebrew who is anxiously awaiting the appearance of the "annointed one", the Messiah. It's a logical link between Malachi and the events about to take place around the the first appearence of our Incarnate Lord.
We are coming from thirty-nine Jewish books which concern the "calling-out" of a chosen people from Abraham, to twenty-seven books which deal primarily with Gentiles called out among the nations, "to be a people for God's name (Acts 15:14).
It is fitting that a "gospel" should be inserted which would give us a bridge, or transition, from a Jewish economy to the Chruch composed of Jew and Gentile.
Where do people's spirit's go that have been slain if they are believers?
K
This is the scripture I was referring to, but it is speaking on the Lord's second coming, not a rapture by itself.
I never seperated the 1st resurrection from the gathering/rapture. I seperated the wicked from the 1st resurrection gathering/rapture.
In Matt.24:32 Jesus says "he shall send his angels and they shall gather his "elect" and in Matt. "elect refers to Israel".
Matt. introduces the reader to the coming Christ (Messiah) to Israel as their King.It occupies a unique place in the canon of Scripture, it has a Jewish flavor of such intensity that little in it can be applied doctrinally to Gentiles or to the Gentile believer.
Matthew's Jewish slant is apparent on every page of the book with the beginning of the genealogy with Abraham, in the very first chapter, as to the purpose of the author.
He is giving "the gospel" from the standpoint of an Old Testament Hebrew who is anxiously awaiting the appearance of the "annointed one", the Messiah. It's a logical link between Malachi and the events about to take place around the the first appearence of our Incarnate Lord.
We are coming from thirty-nine Jewish books which concern the "calling-out" of a chosen people from Abraham, to twenty-seven books which deal primarily with Gentiles called out among the nations, "to be a people for God's name (Acts 15:14).
It is fitting that a "gospel" should be inserted which would give us a bridge, or transition, from a Jewish economy to the Chruch composed of Jew and Gentile.
Where do people's spirit's go that have been slain if they are believers?[/QUOTE]
I know that the sign of the fig tree and Israel becoming a nation in 1948, but again that is not a sign for Israel alone.
As all believers can look at this sign as showing that the end is near, because remember Jesus said in no way will all people of this generation pass away tell the things He spoke on happens.
There are still a number of people born in 1948 alive today, and my mom is one of them.
However we only have a total of maybe about 33 more years before this time frame is up, and when you figure 7 years of that is dedicated to the tribulation and 3/12 of that is the Great tribulation then this can take off at any time.
I also know of the 2 Resurrections but one happens before the millennial reign of Christ at the end of the great tribulation, and the other does not take place tell after this millennial reign and I mentioned this. There is absolutely no mention in the bible of big multitudes being caught up, gathered, or raptured then these two resurrections.
As for your last question;
They go to heaven at the 1st Resurrection as the dead in Christ are raised first then we who are alive and remain will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air, so that God's wrath can be poured out.
I never seperated the 1st resurrection from the gathering/rapture. I seperated the wicked from the 1st resurrection gathering/rapture.
In Matt.24:32 Jesus says "he shall send his angels and they shall gather his "elect" and in Matt. "elect refers to Israel".
Matt. introduces the reader to the coming Christ (Messiah) to Israel as their King.It occupies a unique place in the canon of Scripture, it has a Jewish flavor of such intensity that little in it can be applied doctrinally to Gentiles or to the Gentile believer.
Matthew's Jewish slant is apparent on every page of the book with the beginning of the genealogy with Abraham, in the very first chapter, as to the purpose of the author.
He is giving "the gospel" from the standpoint of an Old Testament Hebrew who is anxiously awaiting the appearance of the "annointed one", the Messiah. It's a logical link between Malachi and the events about to take place around the the first appearence of our Incarnate Lord.
We are coming from thirty-nine Jewish books which concern the "calling-out" of a chosen people from Abraham, to twenty-seven books which deal primarily with Gentiles called out among the nations, "to be a people for God's name (Acts 15:14).
It is fitting that a "gospel" should be inserted which would give us a bridge, or transition, from a Jewish economy to the Chruch composed of Jew and Gentile.
Where do people's spirit's go that have been slain if they are believers?[/QUOTE]
I know that the sign of the fig tree and Israel becoming a nation in 1948, but again that is not a sign for Israel alone.
As all believers can look at this sign as showing that the end is near, because remember Jesus said in no way will all people of this generation pass away tell the things He spoke on happens.
There are still a number of people born in 1948 alive today, and my mom is one of them.
However we only have a total of maybe about 33 more years before this time frame is up, and when you figure 7 years of that is dedicated to the tribulation and 3/12 of that is the Great tribulation then this can take off at any time.
I also know of the 2 Resurrections but one happens before the millennial reign of Christ at the end of the great tribulation, and the other does not take place tell after this millennial reign and I mentioned this. There is absolutely no mention in the bible of big multitudes being caught up, gathered, or raptured then these two resurrections.
As for your last question;
They go to heaven at the 1st Resurrection as the dead in Christ are raised first then we who are alive and remain will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air, so that God's wrath can be poured out.
A
First of all, your original question was,
Now, since you didn't specify as to whether you meant 'physically' at the moment of the conversation or 'scripturally' as to whom the actual 'message' was intended for and who would be its target audience of Bible readers, I will clear up both.
First of all, the Olivet Discourse is limited specifically to the 24th & 25th chapters of Matthew, BUT..... is also contained in the gospels of Mark AND Luke, which is VERY, very significant to this debate.
Now, as to the actual physical conversation in the moment that it took place, Jesus was speaking to less than a handful of His disciples. 'His disciples.' Remember that. They were His disciples and, thus, very clearly believers in Him/Christians, as well as His future Church Leaders-to-be.
They were Peter, James, John & Andrew and He was speaking to them completely 'IN PRIVATE,' NOT in public. Therefore He was NOT speaking to any Jews, NOR to the Nation of Israel.
(Note:I fear this might have been cleared up more quickly by simply pointing out that Matt.23, and all other parts of Matthew not contained within chapters 24 & 25, for that matter, are NOT the Olivet Discourse. Yet, if I need to walk a mile for God and for Truth, I'll walk two.)
So...........furthermore, the gospels of Mark and Luke were written for a gentile audience. If the OD was only meant for Jews about Israel's future, why include it in the other gospels?
Mt. 16:15-18 shows that Peter & other disciples were made well aware of the Church-to-come BEFORE the OD even took place.
Mt. 18:15-17 gives instructions to the Church to come.
After the official OD, Mt. 28:18-20, Jesus gave the Great Commission to the Church saying, "Teach them ALL THAT I COMMANDED YOU.", which would include the OD in its entirety, following with,"I am with you always, EVEN to the END OF THE AGE." Does that sound like he's only referring to 7 decades afterward? Or more like many hundreds of years to come?
The 'elect' are spoken of many times in the OD. It makes no sense whatsover to assume that Jesus was only speaking of a physical race of people's very near future. The entire Bible bears out who the 'elect' of God are. They are all the Spirit Filled believers throughout the entirety of history. The term 'Elect' NEVER refers to Jews or the nation of Israel in the OD. And it is to the 'Elect' that these warnings apply. God wrote the Bible for a spiritual race of people, NOT a physical/genetic race.
Two days after the OD, Jesus shares Passover with His disciples repeating how He will be returning for them (just as He did in the OD) to gather His 'elect.' Mt.24:31
I could go on, but this will suffice for now. Yet another topic that could fuel an entire extended thread.
I pray that the Truth of this matter will reach those whom God intends and that we can all continue to sharpen the saints with our various discussions to come.
God Bless.
-AVW
Now, since you didn't specify as to whether you meant 'physically' at the moment of the conversation or 'scripturally' as to whom the actual 'message' was intended for and who would be its target audience of Bible readers, I will clear up both.
First of all, the Olivet Discourse is limited specifically to the 24th & 25th chapters of Matthew, BUT..... is also contained in the gospels of Mark AND Luke, which is VERY, very significant to this debate.
Now, as to the actual physical conversation in the moment that it took place, Jesus was speaking to less than a handful of His disciples. 'His disciples.' Remember that. They were His disciples and, thus, very clearly believers in Him/Christians, as well as His future Church Leaders-to-be.
They were Peter, James, John & Andrew and He was speaking to them completely 'IN PRIVATE,' NOT in public. Therefore He was NOT speaking to any Jews, NOR to the Nation of Israel.
(Note:I fear this might have been cleared up more quickly by simply pointing out that Matt.23, and all other parts of Matthew not contained within chapters 24 & 25, for that matter, are NOT the Olivet Discourse. Yet, if I need to walk a mile for God and for Truth, I'll walk two.)
So...........furthermore, the gospels of Mark and Luke were written for a gentile audience. If the OD was only meant for Jews about Israel's future, why include it in the other gospels?
Mt. 16:15-18 shows that Peter & other disciples were made well aware of the Church-to-come BEFORE the OD even took place.
Mt. 18:15-17 gives instructions to the Church to come.
After the official OD, Mt. 28:18-20, Jesus gave the Great Commission to the Church saying, "Teach them ALL THAT I COMMANDED YOU.", which would include the OD in its entirety, following with,"I am with you always, EVEN to the END OF THE AGE." Does that sound like he's only referring to 7 decades afterward? Or more like many hundreds of years to come?
The 'elect' are spoken of many times in the OD. It makes no sense whatsover to assume that Jesus was only speaking of a physical race of people's very near future. The entire Bible bears out who the 'elect' of God are. They are all the Spirit Filled believers throughout the entirety of history. The term 'Elect' NEVER refers to Jews or the nation of Israel in the OD. And it is to the 'Elect' that these warnings apply. God wrote the Bible for a spiritual race of people, NOT a physical/genetic race.
Two days after the OD, Jesus shares Passover with His disciples repeating how He will be returning for them (just as He did in the OD) to gather His 'elect.' Mt.24:31
I could go on, but this will suffice for now. Yet another topic that could fuel an entire extended thread.
I pray that the Truth of this matter will reach those whom God intends and that we can all continue to sharpen the saints with our various discussions to come.
God Bless.
-AVW
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C
C
What you say is True. The reason i adamantly teach against pre-trib is because of this verse.
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
That falling away that must happen first, before Christ Returns, are millions of people falling away from the Faith. Because the Trubulation Period starts and Jesus DID NOT COME, as the millions of Christians thought He should have based on what they were told by preachers (men). It will not help that the anti-christ will be saying on TV world wide, "Where is your God now?" After the wrath of God comes upon the whole Earth. Not only will the people in the Christian Faith fall away, but people all over the World, of every Faith, will fall away because of the destruction of the Earth, the wrath of God coming upon ALL the disobedient (those who disobey) children of God.
So i know, that most Christians who FALL AWAY from the Faith, will be those who believe pretrib. And when He does NOT Return and Rapture them, as they (falsely) believed He would, they will fall away, many will then believe there is no God at all, and will believe the man which brings all people, regardless of religion together, under a new banner, NOT a religious banner, but a HUMAN banner, Anyone who believes in any kind of religion will be outcasts. Stand Strong though, those who continue to believe, because Jesus is coming, and He will come during the Tribulation Period, right at the time when the 7 year peace treaty is broken, and the mark of the beast is made mandatory, and the antichrist is revealed by standing in the Holy of Hollies. Then He Returns. Then the vials are poured out to wipe the wicked off the planet, making room for the 144,000 that the Saints rule over for a thousand years.
Responding to post # 128
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
That falling away that must happen first, before Christ Returns, are millions of people falling away from the Faith. Because the Trubulation Period starts and Jesus DID NOT COME, as the millions of Christians thought He should have based on what they were told by preachers (men). It will not help that the anti-christ will be saying on TV world wide, "Where is your God now?" After the wrath of God comes upon the whole Earth. Not only will the people in the Christian Faith fall away, but people all over the World, of every Faith, will fall away because of the destruction of the Earth, the wrath of God coming upon ALL the disobedient (those who disobey) children of God.
So i know, that most Christians who FALL AWAY from the Faith, will be those who believe pretrib. And when He does NOT Return and Rapture them, as they (falsely) believed He would, they will fall away, many will then believe there is no God at all, and will believe the man which brings all people, regardless of religion together, under a new banner, NOT a religious banner, but a HUMAN banner, Anyone who believes in any kind of religion will be outcasts. Stand Strong though, those who continue to believe, because Jesus is coming, and He will come during the Tribulation Period, right at the time when the 7 year peace treaty is broken, and the mark of the beast is made mandatory, and the antichrist is revealed by standing in the Holy of Hollies. Then He Returns. Then the vials are poured out to wipe the wicked off the planet, making room for the 144,000 that the Saints rule over for a thousand years.
Responding to post # 128
P
I have to disagree with you on that. In fact it's sorta a insult.
Suppose the rapture takes place at pre-trib and now it has to be explained away.
Now people that thought they were good enough find themselves left behind as it were.
How do you think they would react? Or do they believe in the lie they were told?
You post it as we have less faith than mid or post trib folks. On the contrary this is my hope that keeps me going.
Suppose the rapture takes place at pre-trib and now it has to be explained away.
Now people that thought they were good enough find themselves left behind as it were.
How do you think they would react? Or do they believe in the lie they were told?
You post it as we have less faith than mid or post trib folks. On the contrary this is my hope that keeps me going.
Greetings DiscipleDave,
What you said above is an erroneous assumption! I will speak for myself as one who believes that the Lord will come pre-trib. If, and I say if for the benefit of this debate, if I as one who believes that Christ will return pre-trib and I see on CNN that man of lawlessness make his seven year covenant, I would know exactly who he is and would realize that I had misinterpreted God's word and would begin to pray that God would give me strength to go through everything that is coming and to be prepared to die keeping the testimony of Jesus and to resist the beast, his image and his mark. And I am sure that there many who take this same position. Why would you think that just because prophecy didn't happen in the order that a person is expecting that they'e just gonna throw up their hands and turn their backs on Jesus. If anything, seeing that man of lawlessness would be an affirmation of the truth and accuracy of the word of God. According to Jesus, the reason for the "falling away" will be because of persecution and the threat of death and not because scripture didn't happen in the right order. Now regarding the following:
Though it would appear that the verse above is stating that the order of events is the falling away, the man of sin being revealed, then the appearing of the Lord, I don't believe that this is the order. The reason being is that when we read further down, we see the following:
"Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till [he] is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming."
So, there is currently One who is restraining the full force of sin and who is also restraining the man of lawlessness from being revealed until his proper time. I for one believe that the One who is restraining is none other than the Holy Spirit and if the restrainer is to be taken out of the way, then those who the Holy Spirit dwells in must also be removed. Therefore, the order would be the apostasy, Restrainer/church removed, then that man of lawlessness is revealed.
The Ekklesia/Church is mentioned over twenty times from Rev.1 to the very end of Rev.3 with no mention of the Hagios/Saints within those chapters. From Rev.4 on the word Ekklesia/church is never seen again after John is taken up into heaven and within the narrative. The church is who is in view from Rev.1 thru 3 and the great tribulation saints are who those who are in view from Rev.4 on. The question has to be asked, why does the word church never appear within the narrative after the end of chapter 3? There are plenty of places where the word Church can be replaced by the word saints, but it never is. The answer is because the church is removed at Rev.4:1, which is prior to the first seal being opened, which is that counterfeit rider on the white horse, that antichrist. The church will never see that antichrist, but will have been removed prior to his being revealed.
Please show us where in Scripture it is stated that Jesus will come in the middle of the tribulation period when the 7 year peace treaty is broken. You won't find it. You can't have Jesus returning before the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments have all been completed and that because Jesus interjects the following after the 6th bowl has been poured out:
"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” (Rev.16:15)
The above clearly demonstrates that Jesus will not have returned prior to the seven bowl judgment.
The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are all to be consider as the wrath of God and that because Jesus is the One who is opening the seals which leads into the rest of God's wrath which are the trumpets and the bowl judgments. The Male child is a collective name for the 144,000 who are the first fruits to God out of Israel, who will be caught up to God and his throne in the middle of the seven year period. They will have been caught up in the same manner as the living church will have been caught up previously.
The church will never see the man of lawlessness
What you said above is an erroneous assumption! I will speak for myself as one who believes that the Lord will come pre-trib. If, and I say if for the benefit of this debate, if I as one who believes that Christ will return pre-trib and I see on CNN that man of lawlessness make his seven year covenant, I would know exactly who he is and would realize that I had misinterpreted God's word and would begin to pray that God would give me strength to go through everything that is coming and to be prepared to die keeping the testimony of Jesus and to resist the beast, his image and his mark. And I am sure that there many who take this same position. Why would you think that just because prophecy didn't happen in the order that a person is expecting that they'e just gonna throw up their hands and turn their backs on Jesus. If anything, seeing that man of lawlessness would be an affirmation of the truth and accuracy of the word of God. According to Jesus, the reason for the "falling away" will be because of persecution and the threat of death and not because scripture didn't happen in the right order. Now regarding the following:
Though it would appear that the verse above is stating that the order of events is the falling away, the man of sin being revealed, then the appearing of the Lord, I don't believe that this is the order. The reason being is that when we read further down, we see the following:
"Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till [he] is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming."
So, there is currently One who is restraining the full force of sin and who is also restraining the man of lawlessness from being revealed until his proper time. I for one believe that the One who is restraining is none other than the Holy Spirit and if the restrainer is to be taken out of the way, then those who the Holy Spirit dwells in must also be removed. Therefore, the order would be the apostasy, Restrainer/church removed, then that man of lawlessness is revealed.
The Ekklesia/Church is mentioned over twenty times from Rev.1 to the very end of Rev.3 with no mention of the Hagios/Saints within those chapters. From Rev.4 on the word Ekklesia/church is never seen again after John is taken up into heaven and within the narrative. The church is who is in view from Rev.1 thru 3 and the great tribulation saints are who those who are in view from Rev.4 on. The question has to be asked, why does the word church never appear within the narrative after the end of chapter 3? There are plenty of places where the word Church can be replaced by the word saints, but it never is. The answer is because the church is removed at Rev.4:1, which is prior to the first seal being opened, which is that counterfeit rider on the white horse, that antichrist. The church will never see that antichrist, but will have been removed prior to his being revealed.
Please show us where in Scripture it is stated that Jesus will come in the middle of the tribulation period when the 7 year peace treaty is broken. You won't find it. You can't have Jesus returning before the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments have all been completed and that because Jesus interjects the following after the 6th bowl has been poured out:
"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” (Rev.16:15)
The above clearly demonstrates that Jesus will not have returned prior to the seven bowl judgment.
The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are all to be consider as the wrath of God and that because Jesus is the One who is opening the seals which leads into the rest of God's wrath which are the trumpets and the bowl judgments. The Male child is a collective name for the 144,000 who are the first fruits to God out of Israel, who will be caught up to God and his throne in the middle of the seven year period. They will have been caught up in the same manner as the living church will have been caught up previously.
The church will never see the man of lawlessness
P
Nope. 100% wrong. The AC kills all w/o the mark early in the GT. There is nobody alive to rapture at that point.
The 10 virgin parable has no such setting of a man of sin boogey man chasing saints all over the planet.
You have no traction on your theory or your snide little personal shots against the body of Christ that are IN LINE WITH WATCHING AND WAITING WHILE "NOAH'S HECKLERS" MOCK AND RIDICULE US.
You have set yourself up to watch and wait for the false christ.
Your faith will bring your own results.
The 10 virgin parable has no such setting of a man of sin boogey man chasing saints all over the planet.
You have no traction on your theory or your snide little personal shots against the body of Christ that are IN LINE WITH WATCHING AND WAITING WHILE "NOAH'S HECKLERS" MOCK AND RIDICULE US.
You have set yourself up to watch and wait for the false christ.
Your faith will bring your own results.
K
You are misusing those verses for you are claiming the man of sin kills all without the mark, but that is completely false as the bible clearly shows some still alive when the Lord returns.
The scriptures also say when He returns the dead will rise first then those who are "alive" will be risen up.
This is clearly shown to be at His second coming by Apostle Paul in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians. If all w/o the mark is killed as you claim then there would be nobody alive to be caught up as Paul says.
P
The other thing we can not do is read Revelation as if it happens in consecutive order, I use to believe that way but after in depth study it does not actually work that way.
Revelation 6:9 says these people were slain (killed) not raptured, and Revelation 7:13-14 says they come out of the great tribulation not before it. Again no support for a pre-trib rapture in these verses as these two groups were killed and came out of within the great tribulation.
Non-issue
Jesus and the patriarchs were killed and later raptured. So this pattern also agrees with the "innumerable number" before the throne of believers killed during the GT by the AC (the 5 foolish virgins left behind)