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They are central to the wrath part of Revelation. They are the deceived. They are the ones following Mystery Babylon just as their forefathers did all the way back to Babel. They are the ones living among the Jews. They are the "Tares." They are the ones taken to the Body where the Eagles gather. Glad you agree with "tons" of this.
Who says anything about the Orthodox Jews accepting a Muslim? Who said that Paul was discussing Jews in 2 Thes 2:9-11? The deceived are the Muslims. The false prophet is theirs. Ever hear of Muhammad? Pretty obvious!!
Where are you reading this? Muslims will never accept Christ. They are told Allah (their god) has no son. They will not accept anyone from the House of David.
The key point is that it is not possible to deceive His Elect. They will not fall for the Muslim uniter.
True, but the "whole earth" is not the "whole planet." The "whole earth" is the known earth of Daniel and John. Neither had any knowledge of North or South America or Australia etc.
Consider Daniel 8: [SUP]5 [/SUP]And as I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth, without touching the ground; and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece.
Did you catch that? Daniel uses the phrase, "ACROSS THE SURFACE OF THE WHOLE EARTH" to describe the conquest of Alexander the Great. Now, did Alexander the Great cross the entire planet? NO HE DID NOT!!! He crossed the known earth to Daniel. Daniel had this vision around 539 BC. John wrote the Book of Revelation around 96 AD around 630 year later but nearly 1400 years before Christopher Columbus sailed the ocean blue.
So when John writes this:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.
...and mentions "those who dwell on the earth" he is talking about the same region that Daniel was discussing. John had no clue about the Americas, Australia, etc. He knew only of the same known earth that Daniel knew.
CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT, my friend. You have to understand the context and times in which the Bible was written. Revelation was written specifically to the 7 churches of Asian Minor (Modern day Turkey). They were right in the middle of the known earth. You have to have an ear to hear what was said to the churches.
As for Russia, no doubt, they will be a major player. The are the arms supplier to most of the radical Muslim world such as Iran and Syria. They are likely "Rosh" although a case can be made that "Rosh" is simply the "New Prince" since Rosh means "New."
Where are you reading this? Muslims will never accept Christ. They are told Allah (their god) has no son. They will not accept anyone from the House of David.
The key point is that it is not possible to deceive His Elect. They will not fall for the Muslim uniter.
True, but the "whole earth" is not the "whole planet." The "whole earth" is the known earth of Daniel and John. Neither had any knowledge of North or South America or Australia etc.
Consider Daniel 8: [SUP]5 [/SUP]And as I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth, without touching the ground; and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece.
Did you catch that? Daniel uses the phrase, "ACROSS THE SURFACE OF THE WHOLE EARTH" to describe the conquest of Alexander the Great. Now, did Alexander the Great cross the entire planet? NO HE DID NOT!!! He crossed the known earth to Daniel. Daniel had this vision around 539 BC. John wrote the Book of Revelation around 96 AD around 630 year later but nearly 1400 years before Christopher Columbus sailed the ocean blue.
So when John writes this:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.
...and mentions "those who dwell on the earth" he is talking about the same region that Daniel was discussing. John had no clue about the Americas, Australia, etc. He knew only of the same known earth that Daniel knew.
CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT, my friend. You have to understand the context and times in which the Bible was written. Revelation was written specifically to the 7 churches of Asian Minor (Modern day Turkey). They were right in the middle of the known earth. You have to have an ear to hear what was said to the churches.
As for Russia, no doubt, they will be a major player. The are the arms supplier to most of the radical Muslim world such as Iran and Syria. They are likely "Rosh" although a case can be made that "Rosh" is simply the "New Prince" since Rosh means "New."
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This warning applied directly to the disciples and to the whole church age. The promise was for "TRIBULATION" for His name's sake. Notice what else Christ says:
But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]“So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand)...
Who are the readers?
Who is enduring to the end? End of What?
What was the original question?
“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
So, those who endure to the end of the age will be saved.
But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]“So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand)...
Who are the readers?
Who is enduring to the end? End of What?
What was the original question?
“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
So, those who endure to the end of the age will be saved.
Back to Bible 101 lessons I see is needed again:
In Matt.24:24 the phrase "false Christs" that Jesus warned would come is Greek pseudochristos, two words, pseudo and Christos. Did you catch that? pseudo-CHRIST.
The context where He gave that in the Matt.24:23-26 verses is about a singular pseudo (fake) Christ that is coming to Jerusalem. Dr. James Strong in his Strong's Exhaustive Concordance translated pseudochristos to 'a spurious Messiah' and I whole heartedly agree.
That false one will be God to all OTHER faiths also, including Islam. They too will see him as GOD on earth, not as the dragon or Lucifer.
This is why Apostle Paul showed us in 2 Thess.2:4... that he will exalt himself over ALL THAT IS CALLED GOD, OR THAT IS WORSHIPED. And the fact that Paul is warning us about not falling away from our Lord Jesus to that impostor instead reveals this coming individual is going to do a supernatural working on earth to deceive, causing what Paul called the "strong delusion". In other words, he is going to be believable that he is God, even to deceived Christian brethren. Our Lord Jesus said the same thing when He said that pseudo-Christ would deceive even His Own very elect, IF it were possible for them to deceived (they will not be). By that our Lord Jesus shows us that coming false Messiah will do a work on earth with such a level of power that would almost... deceive His own chosen elect, if it were not that Jesus has already sealed His to know that one will be fake.
In essence, what we will be experiencing, if we live to see it when the tribulation comes, is Lucifer himself on earth, not playing the role of himself, but as God, working supernatural wonders. It's not going to be about some ordinary flesh religious head like Buddha, Mohammed, Zoroaster, Krishna, or the pope.
In 2 Corinthians 11, this also is what Apostle Paul was speaking about when he warned us of how that old serpent deceived Eve in God's Garden, Paul being afraid brethren might be turned to worship the "another Jesus" instead or follow "another spirit". There he warned how even Satan is disguised as an angel of light and his ministers as the ministers of righteousness.
In Revelation, our Lord gave us strong clues who that coming false one will be, using the symbols of the dragon, that old serpent, and the one who ascends out of the bottomless pit. In Rev.12:7 forward He even showed us directly about the devil with his angels being booted out of Heaven down to this earth in the last days. Do you think that means he is going to be invisible here on earth? No, the world will see him in our dimension, raining fire down from heaven in the sight of men to deceive, and the world will not realize who he really is. But we, those in Christ Jesus, are different from the rest of the world, because we are to know that will be Lucifer, so we would not be deceived ahead of time.
That... is the Biblical context about the coming false Christ per God's Word.
I well understand Biblical context, as The Holy Spirit directs me in God's Word. But the way you're interpreting those things is not in the context by The Holy Spirit, but according to doctrines of men instead. This is why you are looking for a fleshy Antichrist instead of realizing it's about a supernatural working on earth by Lucifer himself. It's also why you would wrongly think our Lord Jesus' seven Messages to the seven Churches in Revelation were meant only... for those Churches back in history, and not still today for all Christian Churches.
Even at the end of Rev.1 our Lord Jesus showed you that the seven candlesticks in the heavenly ARE the seven Churches. If those seven Churches are no longer represented on earth today, then it would mean those seven candlesticks in the heavenly no longer exist. That's the kind of twisted understanding listening to men's doctrines have gotten you. But at least it sounds like you may not have the false Church Ages doctrine of men in your thinking, which is even a worse deception about the real purpose of those seven Messages by Christ for seven 'types' of Churches on earth today. Study what each one of those historical Churches were about and whatever Church you attend today, you find it will fit one of those seven types. And only two of those types represent Christ's elect that will not be deceived in the last days.
Even though there are many true Christians in Russia and its old territorial buffer nations that it still controls, its leadership represents one of Satan's arms along with radical Islam. Communism was founded by the servants of Lucifer, from both in the West and the East. They are only using it as necessary to help bring Lucifer to power as God in Jerusalem. Their plan is to actually join East with West with their one world government working. That is why the power of our traditional Christian institutions in the West are being driven down, along with our national sovereignty, with world socialism replacing it. When I was western Europe back in the '70's, it was then that I saw how Communist-Socialism had crept into the political systems of those nations and had well established foundations over the country and the peoples there. It was just a matter of time when that would be stretched out to the U.S. more. This is why the Biblical context of Revelation is NOT just about the times of John and the other Apostles, but about the times we are living in today.
In Matt.24:24 the phrase "false Christs" that Jesus warned would come is Greek pseudochristos, two words, pseudo and Christos. Did you catch that? pseudo-CHRIST.
The context where He gave that in the Matt.24:23-26 verses is about a singular pseudo (fake) Christ that is coming to Jerusalem. Dr. James Strong in his Strong's Exhaustive Concordance translated pseudochristos to 'a spurious Messiah' and I whole heartedly agree.
That false one will be God to all OTHER faiths also, including Islam. They too will see him as GOD on earth, not as the dragon or Lucifer.
This is why Apostle Paul showed us in 2 Thess.2:4... that he will exalt himself over ALL THAT IS CALLED GOD, OR THAT IS WORSHIPED. And the fact that Paul is warning us about not falling away from our Lord Jesus to that impostor instead reveals this coming individual is going to do a supernatural working on earth to deceive, causing what Paul called the "strong delusion". In other words, he is going to be believable that he is God, even to deceived Christian brethren. Our Lord Jesus said the same thing when He said that pseudo-Christ would deceive even His Own very elect, IF it were possible for them to deceived (they will not be). By that our Lord Jesus shows us that coming false Messiah will do a work on earth with such a level of power that would almost... deceive His own chosen elect, if it were not that Jesus has already sealed His to know that one will be fake.
In essence, what we will be experiencing, if we live to see it when the tribulation comes, is Lucifer himself on earth, not playing the role of himself, but as God, working supernatural wonders. It's not going to be about some ordinary flesh religious head like Buddha, Mohammed, Zoroaster, Krishna, or the pope.
In 2 Corinthians 11, this also is what Apostle Paul was speaking about when he warned us of how that old serpent deceived Eve in God's Garden, Paul being afraid brethren might be turned to worship the "another Jesus" instead or follow "another spirit". There he warned how even Satan is disguised as an angel of light and his ministers as the ministers of righteousness.
In Revelation, our Lord gave us strong clues who that coming false one will be, using the symbols of the dragon, that old serpent, and the one who ascends out of the bottomless pit. In Rev.12:7 forward He even showed us directly about the devil with his angels being booted out of Heaven down to this earth in the last days. Do you think that means he is going to be invisible here on earth? No, the world will see him in our dimension, raining fire down from heaven in the sight of men to deceive, and the world will not realize who he really is. But we, those in Christ Jesus, are different from the rest of the world, because we are to know that will be Lucifer, so we would not be deceived ahead of time.
That... is the Biblical context about the coming false Christ per God's Word.
I well understand Biblical context, as The Holy Spirit directs me in God's Word. But the way you're interpreting those things is not in the context by The Holy Spirit, but according to doctrines of men instead. This is why you are looking for a fleshy Antichrist instead of realizing it's about a supernatural working on earth by Lucifer himself. It's also why you would wrongly think our Lord Jesus' seven Messages to the seven Churches in Revelation were meant only... for those Churches back in history, and not still today for all Christian Churches.
Even at the end of Rev.1 our Lord Jesus showed you that the seven candlesticks in the heavenly ARE the seven Churches. If those seven Churches are no longer represented on earth today, then it would mean those seven candlesticks in the heavenly no longer exist. That's the kind of twisted understanding listening to men's doctrines have gotten you. But at least it sounds like you may not have the false Church Ages doctrine of men in your thinking, which is even a worse deception about the real purpose of those seven Messages by Christ for seven 'types' of Churches on earth today. Study what each one of those historical Churches were about and whatever Church you attend today, you find it will fit one of those seven types. And only two of those types represent Christ's elect that will not be deceived in the last days.
Even though there are many true Christians in Russia and its old territorial buffer nations that it still controls, its leadership represents one of Satan's arms along with radical Islam. Communism was founded by the servants of Lucifer, from both in the West and the East. They are only using it as necessary to help bring Lucifer to power as God in Jerusalem. Their plan is to actually join East with West with their one world government working. That is why the power of our traditional Christian institutions in the West are being driven down, along with our national sovereignty, with world socialism replacing it. When I was western Europe back in the '70's, it was then that I saw how Communist-Socialism had crept into the political systems of those nations and had well established foundations over the country and the peoples there. It was just a matter of time when that would be stretched out to the U.S. more. This is why the Biblical context of Revelation is NOT just about the times of John and the other Apostles, but about the times we are living in today.
Jesus used the plural Christs with an "s" while you use the singular Christ without the "s." Indeed many false Christs have come already.
There will be man with super natural abilities who claims to be "Above all Called God." He isn't going to claim to be God, he's going to claim to be better than, above God. Just clarifying.
2 Thes 2:
...and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped...
Dan 11: [SUP]36 [/SUP]“Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished...
.
Close, but not quite. Not to nit-pick, but you see, the "falling away" of the church comes first before the Man of Sin is revealed. The Man of Sin doesn't cause the "falling away" as it already happens (ed).
[SUP]9 [/SUP]The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, [SUP]12 [/SUP]that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Compare the above to the below:
Rev 13: [SUP]11 [/SUP]Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. [SUP]13 [/SUP]He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.
You see, this Man of Sin (as Paul calls him) or Beast of the Earth (as John calls him) is one and the same. Daniel calls him the "King of the North." Later, in Rev 19, John calls him the "False Prophet."
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Interestingly none of them call him "the AntiChrist!!!" I realize you are still in Bible 101 but when you get to Bible 301 you will learn that this Man of Sin, Son of Perdition (Satan), Beast of the Earth, King of the North and False Prophet is Muslim and those deceived are Muslims or deceived into converting to Islam. It is not possible to deceive those who have accepted Christ (His Elect).
Study Gal 4:21-31 (the 2 covenants)
Study Mat 13:24-30, 36-43 (wheat and tares)
Study Rev 13, 19 (beast of the sea)
Study Dan 11:29-45 (King of the North)
Study Eze 38, 39 (War of Gog, Magog)
Study Jer 51 (Destruction of Babylon)
Study Zech 13, 14 (Battle for Jerusalem)
and many other places.
True Jews believe in the Real God.
True Catholics believe in the Real God and His Son, Jesus. They just put too much emphasis on Mary
True Christians believe in the Real God and His Son, Jesus.
Muslims believe in a false god (ALLAH) and His Prophet, Muhammad, may peace by with him."
The Wheat are Jews
The Tares are Muslims who live among the Jews
The Desolate (or Desolation) are the Muslims
Those who kill (behead) those who will not convert to Islam are radical Muslims
The King of the North (of Israel) is the False Prophet. He will be Muslim. He unites them (1/4 of the earth) at the 4th seal.
They kill Saints - Jews and Christians and Muslims who will not follow the Beast from the Sea
These Muslims (who have the mark, name or number of name) are not written in Book of Life of Lamb slain from foundation of earth.
Christianity used to dominate the region around Israel. It was the birth place of Christianity in places like Syria, Iraq, Turkey and Greece. But look at what has happened. Christianity has been all but wiped out, replaced with Islam.
Its all about this part of the world, not to say other parts aren't affected. But Revelation is mostly dealing with Saved and unSaved, more specifically the massive group of people, who dwell in the above places (earth), which follow the world's largest false religion and because of their religion, they attempt to wipe out all others, especially Jews and Christians.
Mystery Babylon should be no mystery to us. It is so obvious that I am surprised so many fellow Christians cannot wrap their heads around this. What is the religion of those nations which come up against Israel in the last days? Who are they following? Who beheads saints? Who has "kings." Which are the tares growing among the wheat?
There will be man with super natural abilities who claims to be "Above all Called God." He isn't going to claim to be God, he's going to claim to be better than, above God. Just clarifying.
2 Thes 2:
...and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped...
Dan 11: [SUP]36 [/SUP]“Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished...
.
Close, but not quite. Not to nit-pick, but you see, the "falling away" of the church comes first before the Man of Sin is revealed. The Man of Sin doesn't cause the "falling away" as it already happens (ed).
[SUP]9 [/SUP]The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, [SUP]12 [/SUP]that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Compare the above to the below:
Rev 13: [SUP]11 [/SUP]Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. [SUP]13 [/SUP]He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.
You see, this Man of Sin (as Paul calls him) or Beast of the Earth (as John calls him) is one and the same. Daniel calls him the "King of the North." Later, in Rev 19, John calls him the "False Prophet."
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Interestingly none of them call him "the AntiChrist!!!" I realize you are still in Bible 101 but when you get to Bible 301 you will learn that this Man of Sin, Son of Perdition (Satan), Beast of the Earth, King of the North and False Prophet is Muslim and those deceived are Muslims or deceived into converting to Islam. It is not possible to deceive those who have accepted Christ (His Elect).
Study Gal 4:21-31 (the 2 covenants)
Study Mat 13:24-30, 36-43 (wheat and tares)
Study Rev 13, 19 (beast of the sea)
Study Dan 11:29-45 (King of the North)
Study Eze 38, 39 (War of Gog, Magog)
Study Jer 51 (Destruction of Babylon)
Study Zech 13, 14 (Battle for Jerusalem)
and many other places.
True Jews believe in the Real God.
True Catholics believe in the Real God and His Son, Jesus. They just put too much emphasis on Mary
True Christians believe in the Real God and His Son, Jesus.
Muslims believe in a false god (ALLAH) and His Prophet, Muhammad, may peace by with him."
The Wheat are Jews
The Tares are Muslims who live among the Jews
The Desolate (or Desolation) are the Muslims
Those who kill (behead) those who will not convert to Islam are radical Muslims
The King of the North (of Israel) is the False Prophet. He will be Muslim. He unites them (1/4 of the earth) at the 4th seal.
They kill Saints - Jews and Christians and Muslims who will not follow the Beast from the Sea
These Muslims (who have the mark, name or number of name) are not written in Book of Life of Lamb slain from foundation of earth.
Christianity used to dominate the region around Israel. It was the birth place of Christianity in places like Syria, Iraq, Turkey and Greece. But look at what has happened. Christianity has been all but wiped out, replaced with Islam.
Its all about this part of the world, not to say other parts aren't affected. But Revelation is mostly dealing with Saved and unSaved, more specifically the massive group of people, who dwell in the above places (earth), which follow the world's largest false religion and because of their religion, they attempt to wipe out all others, especially Jews and Christians.
Mystery Babylon should be no mystery to us. It is so obvious that I am surprised so many fellow Christians cannot wrap their heads around this. What is the religion of those nations which come up against Israel in the last days? Who are they following? Who beheads saints? Who has "kings." Which are the tares growing among the wheat?
Those Matt.24:23-26 verse's context is about a singular pseudo-Christ, not many. This also why Strong's has that word pseudochristos as "a spurious Messiah". In Greek, the word 'Christos' is singular (check this out in other NT examples where Christ is mentioned). In Matt.24:5 is where Jesus is talking about the "many antichrists", but not in the 23-26 verses which link with the one Paul taught in 2 Thess.2:4 and John in Rev.13:11 forward:
Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, he is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, he is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV
2 Thess 2:9
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
KJV
Rev 13:13-14
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
KJV
In all 3 of those above Scripture examples, it is speaking of the same individual that is coming to play God in Jerusalem. Some try to turn that into the idea of the "many antichrists" of John, instead of heeding it as written. Confusion away from understanding that is about a singular Antichrist happens from Satan's servants tricking those in the Church with men's doctrines.
There is no higher claim than claiming to be The Father or The Son.
You're missing the fact that exalting himself "above every god" is more about his coming to exalt himself over the various pagan gods also. The "all that is called God" phrase covers even our Heavenly Father and His Son.
That's a false doctrine you've been taught on interpreting those two 2 Thess.2:3 phrases as being separate times. It's not actually written that way.
Notice the "and" conjunction linked to the "man of sin be revealed" phrase. The falling away period is linked with the man of sin being revealed, both occur at the same time. The meaning of the man of sin be revealed there is about his arrival to do the great signs and wonders to deceive, which causes that falling away by that "strong delusion" he will work upon the earth. That is why Paul continues about that man of sin being revealed in the 4th verse involving his sitting in the temple and showing himself that he is God. Thus the 4th verse subject is linked with that 3rd verse also; grammar requires that we not separate them.
2 Thess 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV
If you think God is going to cast any flesh born man into the "lake of fire" prior to His future GWT Judgment, which is only to occur after Christ's future "thousand years" reign, then you are deluded by men's doctrines.
The Rev.13:11 forward Scripture does not label that 2nd beast as the false prophet of Rev.19, though I agree they are the same person. The DIFFERENCE though that you're missing, is that false prophet is a ROLE, an OFFICE, and that's what goes into the "lake of fire" at Jesus' coming. Our Lord Jesus also... is a Prophet, and King, which are ROLES or OFFICES. This is why we are shown in Rev.19:20 that the "dragon" (which is Satan) does NOT go into that "lake of fire" at that time.
You should have immediately wondered why the "dragon" is not included with the beast and false prophet going into the lake of fire in Rev.19:20 by remembering the Rev.16:13 verse:
Rev 16:13
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
KJV
How is it that "dragon" (Satan) there is doing the same thing as the beast and false prophet, but he doesn't go into the lake of fire with that beast and false prophet in Rev.19:20?
It's because that "dragon" (Satan) IS.... that beast (beast king) and false prophet, the latter two only being ROLES that Satan will play. That's our Lord Jesus pretty much showing us WHO that pseudo-Christ, "another beast", "man of sin", 7th king, beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit, really will be, i.e., Satan himself on earth working those great signs and wonders to deceive the whole world, except God's elect.
And that understanding is something you have sorely missed in your Bible studies.
I understand the many parallels in Revelation from OT Scripture, if that's what you're pointing to with those Scripture references. You missed a few, Lucifer represents the king of Babylon for the end when he comes to sit in Jerusalem, which will then become the Babylon Harlot of Revelation for the tribulation. The Gog/Magog event of Ezek.38 is set for the last day, the battle of Armageddon of Rev.16, which is that battle of Zech.14, and the destruction of the next temple area in Jerusalem when Jesus comes to flatten that area, etc.
Muslims don't believe in The Son, that's their main difference from us when it comes to that point. They believe in The God of the OT from Adam to Abraham. They do not believe Mohammed is God.
No, the wheat represents the children of the kingdom, which of course that does not mean just Jews.
No the tares are not Muslims. The tares represent the children of the devil, meaning those who worship Lucifer, and know they worship the devil, in full knowledge of Who GOD is, purposefully rejecting Him. The occultist Aleister Crowley is one of the best examples at present I can think of. They are also the Canaanite crept in unawares of Bible history, which is why God shows in the last verse of Zech.14 they will be cast out of His house in final. There's one other group that I won't mention here.
I guess you missed the post about France bringing the guillotine back for the death penalty upon terrorists. It will be just a matter of time before other western states do that too.
Either you're a plant come here to steer God's people away from what world globalists are getting ready do upon God's people for the end, or you are grossly deceived as to what's really happening in the world today. I choose the latter for you out of respect.
Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, he is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, he is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV
2 Thess 2:9
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
KJV
Rev 13:13-14
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
KJV
In all 3 of those above Scripture examples, it is speaking of the same individual that is coming to play God in Jerusalem. Some try to turn that into the idea of the "many antichrists" of John, instead of heeding it as written. Confusion away from understanding that is about a singular Antichrist happens from Satan's servants tricking those in the Church with men's doctrines.
There is no higher claim than claiming to be The Father or The Son.
You're missing the fact that exalting himself "above every god" is more about his coming to exalt himself over the various pagan gods also. The "all that is called God" phrase covers even our Heavenly Father and His Son.
That's a false doctrine you've been taught on interpreting those two 2 Thess.2:3 phrases as being separate times. It's not actually written that way.
Notice the "and" conjunction linked to the "man of sin be revealed" phrase. The falling away period is linked with the man of sin being revealed, both occur at the same time. The meaning of the man of sin be revealed there is about his arrival to do the great signs and wonders to deceive, which causes that falling away by that "strong delusion" he will work upon the earth. That is why Paul continues about that man of sin being revealed in the 4th verse involving his sitting in the temple and showing himself that he is God. Thus the 4th verse subject is linked with that 3rd verse also; grammar requires that we not separate them.
2 Thess 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV
If you think God is going to cast any flesh born man into the "lake of fire" prior to His future GWT Judgment, which is only to occur after Christ's future "thousand years" reign, then you are deluded by men's doctrines.
The Rev.13:11 forward Scripture does not label that 2nd beast as the false prophet of Rev.19, though I agree they are the same person. The DIFFERENCE though that you're missing, is that false prophet is a ROLE, an OFFICE, and that's what goes into the "lake of fire" at Jesus' coming. Our Lord Jesus also... is a Prophet, and King, which are ROLES or OFFICES. This is why we are shown in Rev.19:20 that the "dragon" (which is Satan) does NOT go into that "lake of fire" at that time.
You should have immediately wondered why the "dragon" is not included with the beast and false prophet going into the lake of fire in Rev.19:20 by remembering the Rev.16:13 verse:
Rev 16:13
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
KJV
How is it that "dragon" (Satan) there is doing the same thing as the beast and false prophet, but he doesn't go into the lake of fire with that beast and false prophet in Rev.19:20?
It's because that "dragon" (Satan) IS.... that beast (beast king) and false prophet, the latter two only being ROLES that Satan will play. That's our Lord Jesus pretty much showing us WHO that pseudo-Christ, "another beast", "man of sin", 7th king, beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit, really will be, i.e., Satan himself on earth working those great signs and wonders to deceive the whole world, except God's elect.
And that understanding is something you have sorely missed in your Bible studies.
I understand the many parallels in Revelation from OT Scripture, if that's what you're pointing to with those Scripture references. You missed a few, Lucifer represents the king of Babylon for the end when he comes to sit in Jerusalem, which will then become the Babylon Harlot of Revelation for the tribulation. The Gog/Magog event of Ezek.38 is set for the last day, the battle of Armageddon of Rev.16, which is that battle of Zech.14, and the destruction of the next temple area in Jerusalem when Jesus comes to flatten that area, etc.
Muslims don't believe in The Son, that's their main difference from us when it comes to that point. They believe in The God of the OT from Adam to Abraham. They do not believe Mohammed is God.
No, the wheat represents the children of the kingdom, which of course that does not mean just Jews.
No the tares are not Muslims. The tares represent the children of the devil, meaning those who worship Lucifer, and know they worship the devil, in full knowledge of Who GOD is, purposefully rejecting Him. The occultist Aleister Crowley is one of the best examples at present I can think of. They are also the Canaanite crept in unawares of Bible history, which is why God shows in the last verse of Zech.14 they will be cast out of His house in final. There's one other group that I won't mention here.
I guess you missed the post about France bringing the guillotine back for the death penalty upon terrorists. It will be just a matter of time before other western states do that too.
Either you're a plant come here to steer God's people away from what world globalists are getting ready do upon God's people for the end, or you are grossly deceived as to what's really happening in the world today. I choose the latter for you out of respect.
DP,
You have been watching too many Tim LaHaye movies. I agree that there will be a Man of Sin who you call AntiChrist. You think it is Satan himself, I believe he will be the "Son of Satan" (Son of Perdition) as Judas was (John 17:12). Minor point. A bad Entity (let's call him) is coming to deceive. He will claim to be above everything worshiped and will speak blasphemy against the One True God.
Christians await the Return of Christ
Jews await the Messiah
Muslims await the Mahdi
Jews and Christians await the same person, the Son of God. By very definition, they are not deceived.
The Muslims await a very different character. The Mahdi, or Guided One, Muslims see as their Savior who will lead a Global Islamic Empire. The Mahdi will lead the final Caliph upon earth. He will be both the political and spiritual leader of Islam as representative of Allah on earth. This from Michael Youssef:
Muslims revere Jesus (whom they call Isa) as the Masih or Messiah. In Islamic eschatology, the Mahdi will arrive at the same time that Isa returns. Isa will descend to earth in Syria, east of Damascus, dressed in yellow robes, and will assist the Mahdi, who will rule over the earth for seven years (or, in some Islamic traditions, nine or nineteen years). At the end of the Mahdi’s rule, there will be a Day of Judgment for the entire human race.
The parallels between the biblical Antichrist and the Mahdi of Islam are chilling. Both are associated with the End Times and the Judgment. Both possess political, military, and religious power, and head up a one-world religion. The Mahdi will force all non-Muslim people to convert to Islam. Like the Antichrist, the Mahdi will establish Jerusalem as his capital, from which he will rule the earth. Islamic scholars Muhammad ibn Izzat and Muhammad Arif write:
The Mahdi will be victorious and eradicate those pigs and dogs and the idols of this time so that there will once more be a caliphate based on prophethood as the hadith states. . . . Jerusalem will be the location of the rightly guided caliphate and the center of Islamic rule, which will be headed by Imam al-Mahdi. . . . That will abolish the leadership of the Jews . . . and put an end to the domination of the Satan who spit evil into people and cause corruption in the earth, making them slaves of false idols and ruling the world by laws other than the Sharia [Islamic law] of the Lord of the worlds.
Though Muslims revere Jesus as a prophet, they deny that Jesus is the Son of God. Jews and Christians are, to Muslim fundamentalists, “pigs and dogs” who must either convert to Islam or be eliminated. Bible prophecy makes it clear that the Antichrist will target Jews and Christians for destruction, just as Islamic prophecy states that the Mahdi will wage war against Jews and Christians. Those who oppose the Antichrist’s worldwide religion will be executed.
Muslim scholar Imam Muhammad Baqir states clearly how the Mahdi will establish his one-world religion: “There must be bloodshed and jihad to establish Imam Mahdi’s rule.” And Ayatollah Ibrahim al Amini of the Religious Learning Center in Qom, agrees: “The Mahdi will offer the religion of Islam to the Jews and Christians; if they accept it, they will be spared, otherwise they will be killed.”
Daniel tells us (and Jesus affirms in the Olivet Discourse) that the Antichrist will establish “the abomination that causes desolation” in the temple in Jerusalem. The apostle Paul adds that the Antichrist “will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God” (2 Thessalonians 2:4). Since the temple was destroyed in 70 A.D., as Jesus predicted, this has led some (not all Christians) to suggest that the Jewish temple must be rebuilt on the Temple Mount before the Antichrist can be revealed to the world.
Yet the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa Mosque stand on the Temple Mount today. One of the Islamic Hadiths (traditions) records that their Prophet Muhammad said, “[Armies carrying] black flags will come from Khurasan [Iran and Afghanistan], no power will be able to stop them and they will finally reach Eela [the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem] where they will erect their flags.” In Islamic tradition, black banners symbolize violent conquest, and Muslims await the Mahdi’s conquest of Jerusalem, when he establishes his reign from the temple site.
Daniel 9:27 tells us the Antichrist will establish a seven-year covenant with Israel—but he will break the covenant after three and a half years, defiling the temple with “an abomination that causes desolation.” The Hadiths of Islam also speak of a seven-year covenant that the Mahdi makes with Israel: “The Prophet said: There will be four peace agreements between you and the Romans. The fourth will be mediated through a person who will be from the progeny of Hadrat Aaron [Honorable Aaron, the brother of Moses] and will be upheld for seven years.”
There can be no doubt: Muslims are preparing to accept the Mahdi as their leader—and the Mahdi is indistinguishable from the world leader we know as the Antichrist.
I bring all of this to your attention so we can have a knowledgeable perspective when viewing current events unfolding in the Middle East.
But Christians should not fear.
Regardless of whether the Antichrist comes in this generation or a hundred years from now, those who have placed their faith in God’s Messiah, Jesus the Christ, fear no one nor even death. Their eternity is secure in the one who is the only one to defeat death and rise from the grave.
I do not agree 100% with Michael Youssef's interpretations but I certainly do agree that the one you call, "AntiChrist" will be the character the Muslims are awaiting. I further agree that the "global" religion will be and is ISLAM. Your idea that France and a return of their gulliotine are somehow involved in the beheading of Saints, is laughable. Sorry. You have already been deceived into not recognizing Mystery Babylon whose evil is already at work doing the things we are told she will do.
Islam is by far the world's largest false religion equipped with a false god (Allah) a false prophet, Muhammad, they kill by beheading and are doing so now. They surround and hate Israel and Christians alike. They are descendants of Ishmael and Hagar, the Egyptian and Bond Woman. They are enslaved to their false faith. They are the desolate as Paul calls them in Gal 4. They are the Tares, as Jesus calls them. They will be harvested to a very bad fate as John teaches in Rev 14:17.
Those who think there is a pre-trib Rapture do not understand that we are the ones appointed to Tribulation for our faith. Jesus makes clear that there will be no Pre-Trib Rapture prior to the appearance of the Man of Sin here in John 17:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. [SUP]16 [/SUP]They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
Those who think the Holy Spirit is removed from earth at the Pre-Trib Rapture will all the Saints then believe massive numbers of new believers (Tribulation Saints) sudden accept the Lord upon seeing this event fail to realize that there can be no believer without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. There can be no massive revival without the presence of God's Spirit. There can be no glorification of God if there is no testimony of God's power and ability to watch over His people.
Sadly DP, you and so many others miss the doctine that we are promised TRIBULATION for His name's sake. Thus, the GREAT TRIBULATION is also aimed at God's People. We are not promised a cake walk. We sit over here in the US in relative safety never facing more than an occassion mocking by an unbeliever while our brothers and sisters in Christ over in the Middle East put their lives on the line daily for their faith.
You have been watching too many Tim LaHaye movies. I agree that there will be a Man of Sin who you call AntiChrist. You think it is Satan himself, I believe he will be the "Son of Satan" (Son of Perdition) as Judas was (John 17:12). Minor point. A bad Entity (let's call him) is coming to deceive. He will claim to be above everything worshiped and will speak blasphemy against the One True God.
Christians await the Return of Christ
Jews await the Messiah
Muslims await the Mahdi
Jews and Christians await the same person, the Son of God. By very definition, they are not deceived.
The Muslims await a very different character. The Mahdi, or Guided One, Muslims see as their Savior who will lead a Global Islamic Empire. The Mahdi will lead the final Caliph upon earth. He will be both the political and spiritual leader of Islam as representative of Allah on earth. This from Michael Youssef:
Muslims revere Jesus (whom they call Isa) as the Masih or Messiah. In Islamic eschatology, the Mahdi will arrive at the same time that Isa returns. Isa will descend to earth in Syria, east of Damascus, dressed in yellow robes, and will assist the Mahdi, who will rule over the earth for seven years (or, in some Islamic traditions, nine or nineteen years). At the end of the Mahdi’s rule, there will be a Day of Judgment for the entire human race.
The parallels between the biblical Antichrist and the Mahdi of Islam are chilling. Both are associated with the End Times and the Judgment. Both possess political, military, and religious power, and head up a one-world religion. The Mahdi will force all non-Muslim people to convert to Islam. Like the Antichrist, the Mahdi will establish Jerusalem as his capital, from which he will rule the earth. Islamic scholars Muhammad ibn Izzat and Muhammad Arif write:
The Mahdi will be victorious and eradicate those pigs and dogs and the idols of this time so that there will once more be a caliphate based on prophethood as the hadith states. . . . Jerusalem will be the location of the rightly guided caliphate and the center of Islamic rule, which will be headed by Imam al-Mahdi. . . . That will abolish the leadership of the Jews . . . and put an end to the domination of the Satan who spit evil into people and cause corruption in the earth, making them slaves of false idols and ruling the world by laws other than the Sharia [Islamic law] of the Lord of the worlds.
Though Muslims revere Jesus as a prophet, they deny that Jesus is the Son of God. Jews and Christians are, to Muslim fundamentalists, “pigs and dogs” who must either convert to Islam or be eliminated. Bible prophecy makes it clear that the Antichrist will target Jews and Christians for destruction, just as Islamic prophecy states that the Mahdi will wage war against Jews and Christians. Those who oppose the Antichrist’s worldwide religion will be executed.
Muslim scholar Imam Muhammad Baqir states clearly how the Mahdi will establish his one-world religion: “There must be bloodshed and jihad to establish Imam Mahdi’s rule.” And Ayatollah Ibrahim al Amini of the Religious Learning Center in Qom, agrees: “The Mahdi will offer the religion of Islam to the Jews and Christians; if they accept it, they will be spared, otherwise they will be killed.”
Daniel tells us (and Jesus affirms in the Olivet Discourse) that the Antichrist will establish “the abomination that causes desolation” in the temple in Jerusalem. The apostle Paul adds that the Antichrist “will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God” (2 Thessalonians 2:4). Since the temple was destroyed in 70 A.D., as Jesus predicted, this has led some (not all Christians) to suggest that the Jewish temple must be rebuilt on the Temple Mount before the Antichrist can be revealed to the world.
Yet the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa Mosque stand on the Temple Mount today. One of the Islamic Hadiths (traditions) records that their Prophet Muhammad said, “[Armies carrying] black flags will come from Khurasan [Iran and Afghanistan], no power will be able to stop them and they will finally reach Eela [the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem] where they will erect their flags.” In Islamic tradition, black banners symbolize violent conquest, and Muslims await the Mahdi’s conquest of Jerusalem, when he establishes his reign from the temple site.
Daniel 9:27 tells us the Antichrist will establish a seven-year covenant with Israel—but he will break the covenant after three and a half years, defiling the temple with “an abomination that causes desolation.” The Hadiths of Islam also speak of a seven-year covenant that the Mahdi makes with Israel: “The Prophet said: There will be four peace agreements between you and the Romans. The fourth will be mediated through a person who will be from the progeny of Hadrat Aaron [Honorable Aaron, the brother of Moses] and will be upheld for seven years.”
There can be no doubt: Muslims are preparing to accept the Mahdi as their leader—and the Mahdi is indistinguishable from the world leader we know as the Antichrist.
I bring all of this to your attention so we can have a knowledgeable perspective when viewing current events unfolding in the Middle East.
But Christians should not fear.
Regardless of whether the Antichrist comes in this generation or a hundred years from now, those who have placed their faith in God’s Messiah, Jesus the Christ, fear no one nor even death. Their eternity is secure in the one who is the only one to defeat death and rise from the grave.
I do not agree 100% with Michael Youssef's interpretations but I certainly do agree that the one you call, "AntiChrist" will be the character the Muslims are awaiting. I further agree that the "global" religion will be and is ISLAM. Your idea that France and a return of their gulliotine are somehow involved in the beheading of Saints, is laughable. Sorry. You have already been deceived into not recognizing Mystery Babylon whose evil is already at work doing the things we are told she will do.
Islam is by far the world's largest false religion equipped with a false god (Allah) a false prophet, Muhammad, they kill by beheading and are doing so now. They surround and hate Israel and Christians alike. They are descendants of Ishmael and Hagar, the Egyptian and Bond Woman. They are enslaved to their false faith. They are the desolate as Paul calls them in Gal 4. They are the Tares, as Jesus calls them. They will be harvested to a very bad fate as John teaches in Rev 14:17.
Those who think there is a pre-trib Rapture do not understand that we are the ones appointed to Tribulation for our faith. Jesus makes clear that there will be no Pre-Trib Rapture prior to the appearance of the Man of Sin here in John 17:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. [SUP]16 [/SUP]They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
Those who think the Holy Spirit is removed from earth at the Pre-Trib Rapture will all the Saints then believe massive numbers of new believers (Tribulation Saints) sudden accept the Lord upon seeing this event fail to realize that there can be no believer without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. There can be no massive revival without the presence of God's Spirit. There can be no glorification of God if there is no testimony of God's power and ability to watch over His people.
Sadly DP, you and so many others miss the doctine that we are promised TRIBULATION for His name's sake. Thus, the GREAT TRIBULATION is also aimed at God's People. We are not promised a cake walk. We sit over here in the US in relative safety never facing more than an occassion mocking by an unbeliever while our brothers and sisters in Christ over in the Middle East put their lives on the line daily for their faith.
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For those who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture, I found this from Sid Roth's website:
This question of the Rapture and when it will take place is one that seems to circle the earth. When things are calm the issue of the Rapture fades into the background; but as soon as things heat up, people begin to get nervous about the status quo of the world, and the issue resurfaces. It sure has resurfaced lately - for good reason. The world is in increasing turmoil. Here’s a question that came from Sydney, Australia.
Q. Many of the U.S evangelical pastors say God will not allow his church to be here while the tribulation takes place…and that the Rapture and the second coming are not two separate events. Care to explain why you differ?
A. Believe me when I say I’m all for the Rapture happening before the tribulation or any time that will take us out of it. My vote would be for the Rapture to happen ASAP!
But before I go any further in answering this man’s question, I want to make it clear that I am not dogmatic about when the Rapture takes place; but I am greatly concerned about people who are not spiritually, or mentally equipped to go through times of tribulation should they occur. My experience has been that, not all, but a significant number of believers expect to be taken out of harms way at any time; so they are not pressing into the Lord as they would if they were preparing should troubled times lie ahead.
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There is a less of a dependence upon Him, or little realization of how much we desperately need to get as close to the Lord as we can; or of those who realize how much we will need to trust in Him fully if we should head into difficult times. And most of all, there is not the same quest for holiness for those who feel that they already “qualify” for the Rapture because they “prayed the sinners prayer” at one time. If that sounds judgmental, may I say it comes with love, and much concern for the well-being of people’s souls, who may be vulnerable to discouragement and fear if hard times come to them.
When I confronted friends of mine who were “pre-tribers” with the possibility of still being here in times of great tribulation; and shared some verses with them, it changed their whole way of relating to the Lord. Even if things do not get difficult, growing stronger in the Lord is always advisable. One is never sorry they took the time and the focus to grow in God. We should never settle for the existing state of our walk with the Lord. There is so much more to be gained from a deeper walk with the Him. Seeking to know Him more; asking Him for insight, and revelation into His Word; can only benefit us, and equip us regardless of what may come. The greater the revelation we have of Him, the greater the change in us, so that we are more and more like Him, as we wait for His coming.
Now let’s get into some of the issues. Yeshua told the story of the ten virgins; half of whom were ready when the Bridegroom came at midnight, while the other half were unprepared. It appears that they all had every intention of being ready for the Bridegroom, and were waiting for him with great anticipation. But he didn’t come when they expected, and so rather than remain alert and in continued prepared anticipation for his coming, the sleepy ones drifted off until they totally missed his coming. “Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep” (Matthew 25:5).
To be awake is to be alert to the things and Person of God. To be asleep is to be unresponsive to God or His call. I get concerned that there are some, who do not expect to be here in difficult times, who will slip off into a spiritual slumber and not remain alert in the Spirit; and will therefore be vulnerable to error or accusations. Take the following verse for instance: “Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming” (2 Peter 3:3, 4).
What does this verse mean to you? To me it sounds like in the last days, which many believe we are approaching; there will be unbelievers who are out to taunt the believers by basically saying, “Yeah, you’ve been waiting for that Messiah of yours, and saying He would come for you, but you’re still here and He’s not. You’ve waited for something that never happened.” Will all believers remain steadfast in their faith in the midst of that ridicule? It looks to me like in the “last days” believers will be here along with the mockers. Maybe this refers to those believers who are saved after the Rapture. It doesn’t say so, but maybe. Big maybe! Here’s why:
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The Rapture theory considers that the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the earth with the believers, based on this verse about the appearing of the anti-Christ: “And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way” (2 Thessalonians 2:6, 7). It is assumed that it is the Holy Spirit that restrains evil, and what this verse is speaking about, but how does anyone get or stay saved without the Holy Spirit if He is taken out in the Rapture? To think one can “get saved” or will remain faithful to God without God’s grace being resident is to misunderstand our entire dependence upon the Spirit of God. Without the Spirit, it is impossible to be saved because it is the indwelling of the Spirit of God that makes us one with God. “If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Messiah is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Yeshua from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Messiah Yeshua from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.” (Romans 8:9b-11). No Spirit, no spiritual life.
We Jews seem to have to go through things, we don’t get evacuated from them. It seems to be God’s way for us. The early disciples went through terrible persecution. Why in Western society do we think we should be exempt because most of us have been in these past few generations? It’s not the case elsewhere in the world. People are suffering for their faith in Yeshua as you read this in the comfort of your own home. Have you read the book of Revelation lately, especially the first three chapters? Those folks went through some very difficult things, but Yeshua’s word to them was “Hang in there, remain faithful, hold to your first love, to your testimony, and the blood of the Lamb, and I will give you a crown of life. (See Revelation 2 & 3).
Was Yeshua chastising most of those congregations where they needed it? Yes, He was. He was warning them; He corrected them. He was attempting to protect them from what was facing them. He also promised them that as they lined up their lives and faith where they were amiss, He would be with them and great victory was ahead; perhaps not in this world but in the next. I am concerned that too many in the church today have a rather earthbound image of Yeshua, and do not see Him as the glorious King of the universe; to whom we are pledged in righteousness. Our treasure is too much located on earth, in the here and now, and not the glory of eternity. Yeshua said, “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also” (Matthew 6:19-21). How do you personally live out this verse? Where is your treasure? Are we so used to hearing this verse that we don’t really “hear” it to be accountable to it?
I really dislike writing articles like this one. I much prefer to be God’s cheerleader and talk about how good and great He is. I know this is not one of my usual God-is-so-good articles, but it may be that some of us need to hear this. I’m saying this in the spirit of, “one who…speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation” (1 Corinthians 14:3). But Paul also clearly said, “I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Messiah Yeshua, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires…” (2 Timothy 4:1-3).
Accordingly, please note that Yeshua didn’t say to the churches in the first chapters of the Revelation, “And I will make sure you never suffer a day of stress or duress.” Rather, He said things like, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown” (Revelation 2:10). Sounds like tribulation to me. I hope those words were only for them back then. But everything in the Bible is for our present edification and to learn from. What I take away from those verses is that should difficult times come upon us, or even just upon myself, I want to remain faithful to the Lord, and be strong in Him, even to the point of death if need be.
When the disciples asked Yeshua, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” (Matthew 24:3), He answered, “….of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. (Matthew 24:36-39).
Let’s examine this. The Rapture understanding of these verses is that the good guys would be taken out and the rest left behind to perish. But is that what it says? It says, “They did not understand until the flood came and took them all away.” It was the flood which did away with them. Noah and his family weren’t taken away; they remained on the earth. The rest perished.
Prior to these words Yeshua said, “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another” (Matthew 24:9, 10).
This is my great concern: that you who read these articles, who visit our website, who have a longing to come to know God in a greater measure; who are pressing in to lay hold of God and His power, who are seeking to be in His presence; that we together remain faithful to Messiah Yeshua, and to our brothers and sisters in the Lord. And that we remain people of His love. We may not know each other in the natural, but I feel a connection to you who read my articles. I care about you. The Lord has let me know that many of you and I will meet in heaven one day. Won’t that be wonderful? Till that day, we must prepare to remain faithful when many fall away.
As for the Rapture and the second coming being the same, I have no way of knowing for certain when He will come; but what I’ve given you above is but a small example of why I do not believe a Rapture will take place that will exempt us from times of tribulation. Could there be a mid-trib Rapture as some expect? I would hope so there too. Don’t know. I’m just going to do my best to prepare to remain faithful, and in love and forgiveness; whatever may or may not come. That’s the best way I know to be ready whenever He comes. There are a large number of pastors who feel as I do; about the Rapture not taking us out of times of difficulty. There is a greater glory to God when He takes care of His people in the midst of His judgment of others, rather than just removing them from it. I heard one pastor on TV recently, who is known world-wide, speak in agreement with these thoughts: Where is the glory to God if there is no testimony to His keeping power over His people? If there are no believers in the earth anymore, where is the testimony of God? And without any testimony, there will be no salvation for those who are perishing, which is always God’s primary concern. He has to have His people here to be His ambassadors. Yeshua came that people might be saved. That hasn’t changed.
Even if and when judgment comes on the earth, there is always this: “In wrath (He will) remember mercy” (Habakkuk 3:2), but someone has to be here to pray for mercy. Some people who know He is a merciful God need to be here to intercede for that mercy. That’s God’s way: that we partner with Him in what He’s doing, through prayer. I personally believe prayer is how He is teaching us now to reign with Him in eternity forever. He is teaching us to bear the burdens of His heart now.
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There are many other verses I could go into, and by now I’ve probably frightened some of you who do not feel ready. Then again, who could really feel ready? The best way to be ready is to know how to put the full weight of your trust in the Lord in all things. It’s okay, dear ones, if you don’t feel ready now. This is a wakeup call, but please be aware that this is not for you to find a way in the flesh to try to be ready, nor should you fear. Just surrender yourself to God, turn away from any sins you’re been tolerating in your life or compromising about; and turn fully to God. He will teach you how to be wholly His as you look to Him to do so. In times of darkness, He has promised that His people will prove to be the light in the world: “ Prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, (Philippians 2:14-16). There’s our goal. That’s His standard. Let’s agree to live up to it, by His grace.
We may just well be the most (or only) joyful people on the planet, and surely the only people in peace, as we “hold fast the word of life” who is Yeshua. We understand that the shaking of the world system that we call tribulation is God bringing sin and unrighteousness to an end. His intention is to bring people to repentance, and to rethink the values in their lives, and to realize they are far from God; so as to come under His eternally-safe wings. We get to be the ones to show them the way. Our path grows brighter and brighter as the day grows closer of His return, whenever that is.
As a final thought, consider the Exodus from Egypt. It was God showing His deference to, and protection of those who were His, when they did not experience the plagues that Egypt did. In Goshen where God’s people lived, there was light when the rest of Egypt was under the curse of darkness. Thousands of Egyptians, and a “mixed multitude” in Egypt at the time, saw the power and protection of their God; and left Egypt with the Hebrews to become a part of God’s own people. As people see the protection of God upon His people, can we not expect that thousands will come under His protection and righteousness as well? If we were not there, how would they know He was available to them?
Reprint of this article is permitted as long as you use the following; Use by permission by Messianic Vision, www.sidroth.org, 2011.
This question of the Rapture and when it will take place is one that seems to circle the earth. When things are calm the issue of the Rapture fades into the background; but as soon as things heat up, people begin to get nervous about the status quo of the world, and the issue resurfaces. It sure has resurfaced lately - for good reason. The world is in increasing turmoil. Here’s a question that came from Sydney, Australia.
Q. Many of the U.S evangelical pastors say God will not allow his church to be here while the tribulation takes place…and that the Rapture and the second coming are not two separate events. Care to explain why you differ?
A. Believe me when I say I’m all for the Rapture happening before the tribulation or any time that will take us out of it. My vote would be for the Rapture to happen ASAP!
But before I go any further in answering this man’s question, I want to make it clear that I am not dogmatic about when the Rapture takes place; but I am greatly concerned about people who are not spiritually, or mentally equipped to go through times of tribulation should they occur. My experience has been that, not all, but a significant number of believers expect to be taken out of harms way at any time; so they are not pressing into the Lord as they would if they were preparing should troubled times lie ahead.
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Even if things do not get difficult, growing stronger in the Lord is always advisable.
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There is a less of a dependence upon Him, or little realization of how much we desperately need to get as close to the Lord as we can; or of those who realize how much we will need to trust in Him fully if we should head into difficult times. And most of all, there is not the same quest for holiness for those who feel that they already “qualify” for the Rapture because they “prayed the sinners prayer” at one time. If that sounds judgmental, may I say it comes with love, and much concern for the well-being of people’s souls, who may be vulnerable to discouragement and fear if hard times come to them.
When I confronted friends of mine who were “pre-tribers” with the possibility of still being here in times of great tribulation; and shared some verses with them, it changed their whole way of relating to the Lord. Even if things do not get difficult, growing stronger in the Lord is always advisable. One is never sorry they took the time and the focus to grow in God. We should never settle for the existing state of our walk with the Lord. There is so much more to be gained from a deeper walk with the Him. Seeking to know Him more; asking Him for insight, and revelation into His Word; can only benefit us, and equip us regardless of what may come. The greater the revelation we have of Him, the greater the change in us, so that we are more and more like Him, as we wait for His coming.
Now let’s get into some of the issues. Yeshua told the story of the ten virgins; half of whom were ready when the Bridegroom came at midnight, while the other half were unprepared. It appears that they all had every intention of being ready for the Bridegroom, and were waiting for him with great anticipation. But he didn’t come when they expected, and so rather than remain alert and in continued prepared anticipation for his coming, the sleepy ones drifted off until they totally missed his coming. “Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep” (Matthew 25:5).
To be awake is to be alert to the things and Person of God. To be asleep is to be unresponsive to God or His call. I get concerned that there are some, who do not expect to be here in difficult times, who will slip off into a spiritual slumber and not remain alert in the Spirit; and will therefore be vulnerable to error or accusations. Take the following verse for instance: “Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming” (2 Peter 3:3, 4).
What does this verse mean to you? To me it sounds like in the last days, which many believe we are approaching; there will be unbelievers who are out to taunt the believers by basically saying, “Yeah, you’ve been waiting for that Messiah of yours, and saying He would come for you, but you’re still here and He’s not. You’ve waited for something that never happened.” Will all believers remain steadfast in their faith in the midst of that ridicule? It looks to me like in the “last days” believers will be here along with the mockers. Maybe this refers to those believers who are saved after the Rapture. It doesn’t say so, but maybe. Big maybe! Here’s why:
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The Rapture theory considers that the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the earth with the believers...
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The Rapture theory considers that the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the earth with the believers, based on this verse about the appearing of the anti-Christ: “And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way” (2 Thessalonians 2:6, 7). It is assumed that it is the Holy Spirit that restrains evil, and what this verse is speaking about, but how does anyone get or stay saved without the Holy Spirit if He is taken out in the Rapture? To think one can “get saved” or will remain faithful to God without God’s grace being resident is to misunderstand our entire dependence upon the Spirit of God. Without the Spirit, it is impossible to be saved because it is the indwelling of the Spirit of God that makes us one with God. “If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Messiah is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Yeshua from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Messiah Yeshua from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.” (Romans 8:9b-11). No Spirit, no spiritual life.
We Jews seem to have to go through things, we don’t get evacuated from them. It seems to be God’s way for us. The early disciples went through terrible persecution. Why in Western society do we think we should be exempt because most of us have been in these past few generations? It’s not the case elsewhere in the world. People are suffering for their faith in Yeshua as you read this in the comfort of your own home. Have you read the book of Revelation lately, especially the first three chapters? Those folks went through some very difficult things, but Yeshua’s word to them was “Hang in there, remain faithful, hold to your first love, to your testimony, and the blood of the Lamb, and I will give you a crown of life. (See Revelation 2 & 3).
Was Yeshua chastising most of those congregations where they needed it? Yes, He was. He was warning them; He corrected them. He was attempting to protect them from what was facing them. He also promised them that as they lined up their lives and faith where they were amiss, He would be with them and great victory was ahead; perhaps not in this world but in the next. I am concerned that too many in the church today have a rather earthbound image of Yeshua, and do not see Him as the glorious King of the universe; to whom we are pledged in righteousness. Our treasure is too much located on earth, in the here and now, and not the glory of eternity. Yeshua said, “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also” (Matthew 6:19-21). How do you personally live out this verse? Where is your treasure? Are we so used to hearing this verse that we don’t really “hear” it to be accountable to it?
I really dislike writing articles like this one. I much prefer to be God’s cheerleader and talk about how good and great He is. I know this is not one of my usual God-is-so-good articles, but it may be that some of us need to hear this. I’m saying this in the spirit of, “one who…speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation” (1 Corinthians 14:3). But Paul also clearly said, “I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Messiah Yeshua, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires…” (2 Timothy 4:1-3).
Accordingly, please note that Yeshua didn’t say to the churches in the first chapters of the Revelation, “And I will make sure you never suffer a day of stress or duress.” Rather, He said things like, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown” (Revelation 2:10). Sounds like tribulation to me. I hope those words were only for them back then. But everything in the Bible is for our present edification and to learn from. What I take away from those verses is that should difficult times come upon us, or even just upon myself, I want to remain faithful to the Lord, and be strong in Him, even to the point of death if need be.
When the disciples asked Yeshua, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” (Matthew 24:3), He answered, “….of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. (Matthew 24:36-39).
Let’s examine this. The Rapture understanding of these verses is that the good guys would be taken out and the rest left behind to perish. But is that what it says? It says, “They did not understand until the flood came and took them all away.” It was the flood which did away with them. Noah and his family weren’t taken away; they remained on the earth. The rest perished.
Prior to these words Yeshua said, “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another” (Matthew 24:9, 10).
This is my great concern: that you who read these articles, who visit our website, who have a longing to come to know God in a greater measure; who are pressing in to lay hold of God and His power, who are seeking to be in His presence; that we together remain faithful to Messiah Yeshua, and to our brothers and sisters in the Lord. And that we remain people of His love. We may not know each other in the natural, but I feel a connection to you who read my articles. I care about you. The Lord has let me know that many of you and I will meet in heaven one day. Won’t that be wonderful? Till that day, we must prepare to remain faithful when many fall away.
As for the Rapture and the second coming being the same, I have no way of knowing for certain when He will come; but what I’ve given you above is but a small example of why I do not believe a Rapture will take place that will exempt us from times of tribulation. Could there be a mid-trib Rapture as some expect? I would hope so there too. Don’t know. I’m just going to do my best to prepare to remain faithful, and in love and forgiveness; whatever may or may not come. That’s the best way I know to be ready whenever He comes. There are a large number of pastors who feel as I do; about the Rapture not taking us out of times of difficulty. There is a greater glory to God when He takes care of His people in the midst of His judgment of others, rather than just removing them from it. I heard one pastor on TV recently, who is known world-wide, speak in agreement with these thoughts: Where is the glory to God if there is no testimony to His keeping power over His people? If there are no believers in the earth anymore, where is the testimony of God? And without any testimony, there will be no salvation for those who are perishing, which is always God’s primary concern. He has to have His people here to be His ambassadors. Yeshua came that people might be saved. That hasn’t changed.
Even if and when judgment comes on the earth, there is always this: “In wrath (He will) remember mercy” (Habakkuk 3:2), but someone has to be here to pray for mercy. Some people who know He is a merciful God need to be here to intercede for that mercy. That’s God’s way: that we partner with Him in what He’s doing, through prayer. I personally believe prayer is how He is teaching us now to reign with Him in eternity forever. He is teaching us to bear the burdens of His heart now.
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The best way to be ready is to know how to put the full weight of your trust in the Lord in all things.
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There are many other verses I could go into, and by now I’ve probably frightened some of you who do not feel ready. Then again, who could really feel ready? The best way to be ready is to know how to put the full weight of your trust in the Lord in all things. It’s okay, dear ones, if you don’t feel ready now. This is a wakeup call, but please be aware that this is not for you to find a way in the flesh to try to be ready, nor should you fear. Just surrender yourself to God, turn away from any sins you’re been tolerating in your life or compromising about; and turn fully to God. He will teach you how to be wholly His as you look to Him to do so. In times of darkness, He has promised that His people will prove to be the light in the world: “ Prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, (Philippians 2:14-16). There’s our goal. That’s His standard. Let’s agree to live up to it, by His grace.
We may just well be the most (or only) joyful people on the planet, and surely the only people in peace, as we “hold fast the word of life” who is Yeshua. We understand that the shaking of the world system that we call tribulation is God bringing sin and unrighteousness to an end. His intention is to bring people to repentance, and to rethink the values in their lives, and to realize they are far from God; so as to come under His eternally-safe wings. We get to be the ones to show them the way. Our path grows brighter and brighter as the day grows closer of His return, whenever that is.
As a final thought, consider the Exodus from Egypt. It was God showing His deference to, and protection of those who were His, when they did not experience the plagues that Egypt did. In Goshen where God’s people lived, there was light when the rest of Egypt was under the curse of darkness. Thousands of Egyptians, and a “mixed multitude” in Egypt at the time, saw the power and protection of their God; and left Egypt with the Hebrews to become a part of God’s own people. As people see the protection of God upon His people, can we not expect that thousands will come under His protection and righteousness as well? If we were not there, how would they know He was available to them?
Reprint of this article is permitted as long as you use the following; Use by permission by Messianic Vision, www.sidroth.org, 2011.
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I'm just staying with The Word of God as written on those things. I don't listen to Tim LaHaye nor any of those, they don't have a clue about the coming Antichrist because they consider they will be raptured before that false one shows up in Jerusalem.
You're very wrong about that. The orthodox Jews await The Messiah of The Bible, which they will think is that pseudo-Christ coming to work great signs and wonders IN JERUSALEM. True Christians await Jesus Christ Who was sacrificed in Jerusalem for the remission of sins of those who believe, something orthodox Jews do not believe, nor Muslims.
Muslims will think that pseudo-Christ is their Mahdi. What did you not understand from Paul saying that false one of 2 Thess.2 sitting in the temple of God will exalt himself over all that is CALLED GOD, or that is worshiped?
You're very wrong about that. The orthodox Jews await The Messiah of The Bible, which they will think is that pseudo-Christ coming to work great signs and wonders IN JERUSALEM. True Christians await Jesus Christ Who was sacrificed in Jerusalem for the remission of sins of those who believe, something orthodox Jews do not believe, nor Muslims.
Muslims will think that pseudo-Christ is their Mahdi. What did you not understand from Paul saying that false one of 2 Thess.2 sitting in the temple of God will exalt himself over all that is CALLED GOD, or that is worshiped?
I will speak for myself, and I believe that others feel the same way. I know that the Lord is coming to remove his church prior to the first seal being opened. And if anything, my dependence on the Lord grows more and more as the time draws near, not less! That we would have less dependence on Christ having this belief, is a false assumption by Sid Roth and others.
Those who truly belong to Christ will be doing what he commanded of which he said, "What I say to you, I say to all, watch!" The true believer who believes that the Lord is going to remove us from the earth and that because we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, would be ready and would recognize that antichrist as soon as he made himself known by the making of that seven year covenant. If the true church was actually here to see the antichrist, then we would prepare ourselves to go through all that is written about that time period regarding the beast, his image and his mark, as well as the wrath of God that would be poured out at the same time. In other words, if true believers in Christ indeed found themselves on the earth during the time of the antichrist, we would not abandon our faith such as Sid Roth hints at. We would simply shift gears and prepare ourselves for what is to come and pray for God to get us through it.
The above is an erroneous analogy and that because, what is coming, the wrath of God, the day of the Lord, is going to be an unprecedented time of trouble. In fact regarding this time Jesus said: "For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."
Regarding the above, what Sid Roth fails to take into consideration is that, the persecution and killing of believers in the early church was not being done as a result of God's wrath, but at the hands of evil men, which was orchestrated by the powers of darkness. In opposition, the events of God's coming wrath, will be carried out directly by God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as all of the events written of regarding the beast and the false prophet. Therefore, we believers in "Western society" or any society, because we have believed in His Son and are awaiting for our blessed hope, will not be here to experience God's direct wrath upon the earth, and that because it is meant for all of those who have rejected his Son and continue living according to the sinful nature, the unfaithful, the proud and arrogant, those who are self-seeking, lovers of selves, lovers of money, sexually immoral, God haters, drunkards, slanderers, liars, etc., etc.
In regards to the above, there will indeed by those who will be praying, which will be the great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17 and the woman/Israel who will be cared for out in the wilderness in that place prepared for her by God during that last 3 1/2 years until Christ returns to end the age. As one proof of the church being removed prior to the first seal being opened, you will not find the word "Ekklesia" translated "church" used anywhere from Rev.4 through chapter 18. The next time that we see a reference to her, she will have already been in heaven at the wedding where she will receive her fine linen, white and clean and are the ones who will be following the Lord out from heaven riding on white horses (Rev.19:7-8, 14)
Regarding the above, that would include trusting in the Lord's promise to remove his church prior to when he begins to pour out his wrath, knowing that since the entire earth will be exposed to it, that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.
In conclusion, Sid Roth has proven nothing regarding the subject.
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DP,
I'm very happy you haven't been fooled by that wolf in sheep's clothing.
When the Messiah of the OT comes, He will do all the things the Jews have been awaiting. I do not think many will be fooled into thinking the Man of Sin is the Messiah. Remember, He has two horns like a lamb but speaks like a dragon. Immediately upon setting up the A of D, he attacks Israel. Again, he will be seen as the Mahdi by the Muslim. He comes to kill Christians and Jews.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
I find no evidence of the coming Mahdi (Man of Sin) making peace with Israel. Dan 9:27 does not teach us this. Israel was very opposed to the Iran Nuclear deal.
I completely understand and agree with this. However, there is no passage that tells us this occurs in a third man-made Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. There is no prophesy that clearly tells us of a third earthly man-made temple in Jerusalem. The mere fact that such a teaching does not exist should cause pause.
Two accounts of Jesus comments about the A of D are given in Mrk 13 and Mat 24:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]“So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not”
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place”
Jesus does not use the word, "TEMPLE." I seriously doubt Jesus would refer to a third man-made Jewish Temple as a Holy Place after what He went through at the second Jewish Temple. When Jesus was crucified, the veil of the Temple was torn. The Spirit of the Lord will NEVER return to a man-made Jewish Temple.
I'm very happy you haven't been fooled by that wolf in sheep's clothing.
When the Messiah of the OT comes, He will do all the things the Jews have been awaiting. I do not think many will be fooled into thinking the Man of Sin is the Messiah. Remember, He has two horns like a lamb but speaks like a dragon. Immediately upon setting up the A of D, he attacks Israel. Again, he will be seen as the Mahdi by the Muslim. He comes to kill Christians and Jews.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
I find no evidence of the coming Mahdi (Man of Sin) making peace with Israel. Dan 9:27 does not teach us this. Israel was very opposed to the Iran Nuclear deal.
I completely understand and agree with this. However, there is no passage that tells us this occurs in a third man-made Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. There is no prophesy that clearly tells us of a third earthly man-made temple in Jerusalem. The mere fact that such a teaching does not exist should cause pause.
Two accounts of Jesus comments about the A of D are given in Mrk 13 and Mat 24:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]“So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not”
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place”
Jesus does not use the word, "TEMPLE." I seriously doubt Jesus would refer to a third man-made Jewish Temple as a Holy Place after what He went through at the second Jewish Temple. When Jesus was crucified, the veil of the Temple was torn. The Spirit of the Lord will NEVER return to a man-made Jewish Temple.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
Jesus promises TRIBULATION for His name sake.
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
Again, Jesus promises us TRIBULATION. We can count on being persecuted for Him.
"...strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”
We MUST endure TRIBULATIONS to enter the Kingdom of God. Again, this is an absolute promise.
"...except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me."
Chains and Tribulation awaits.
And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;
We are to glory in Tribulation, not run from it.
Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my boasting on your behalf. I am filled with comfort. I am exceedingly joyful in all our tribulation.
Paul took joy in his tribulation. Yet there are those among us who preach and teach that the Church is to be removed from earth and not endure Tribulation. There are those among us who equate the Wrath of God with the persecution and tribulation of the Saints. Because of this mistake, many are led astray into a false sense of security. Many are not prepared to lay down their lives when given the choice to convert to Satan's Islam or die.
Great Tribulation = Wrath of Satan
God's Wrath = God's Wrath in response
Jesus promises TRIBULATION for His name sake.
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
Again, Jesus promises us TRIBULATION. We can count on being persecuted for Him.
"...strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”
We MUST endure TRIBULATIONS to enter the Kingdom of God. Again, this is an absolute promise.
"...except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me."
Chains and Tribulation awaits.
And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;
We are to glory in Tribulation, not run from it.
Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my boasting on your behalf. I am filled with comfort. I am exceedingly joyful in all our tribulation.
Paul took joy in his tribulation. Yet there are those among us who preach and teach that the Church is to be removed from earth and not endure Tribulation. There are those among us who equate the Wrath of God with the persecution and tribulation of the Saints. Because of this mistake, many are led astray into a false sense of security. Many are not prepared to lay down their lives when given the choice to convert to Satan's Islam or die.
Great Tribulation = Wrath of Satan
God's Wrath = God's Wrath in response
What you are not understanding is that, God's wrath runs through that entire last seven years. Jesus is the One opening the seals, which leads into the trumpet and bowl judgments. The events of tribulation that take place as a result of the beast and the false prophet, also take place during that last seven years and specifically during the last 3 1/2 years. The bottom line is that, the church must be removed prior to that first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.
Your conclusion regarding our being led astray into a false sense of security because we believe that the Lord is going to gather his church prior to his wrath, is false. My spiritual attitude, as I am sure is the same for all true believers, is to be prepared to be persecuted and even die for the testimony of Jesus and the word of God regardless of the timing of anything. Our faith in Christ does not hinge upon when the resurrection and catching away takes place. Therefore, if we happen to be wrong about the timing of the event of the Lord's gathering, we would continue to resist and go to our deaths if need be. But the fact is, according to scripture, the Lord is going to remove his church prior to his wrath being poured out.
Furthermore and as I continue to demonstrate, Paul and the early church suffered persecution and death from common tribulation at the hands of men with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background and not as a result of God's wrath. Big difference between the two! In opposition to this, the inhabitants of the earth who are here during that last seven years will be exposed to God's direct and deliberate wrath, which will be unprecedented and which will be in fulfillment of "the day of the Lord" in which God is going to decimate the population of the earth and dismantle all human government(Dan.2:31-45, Zeph.1, Isa.13:12).
It is because people don't understand the magnitude and severity of God's coming wrath that they believe that God is going to allow his church to go through it. I will say it again, you will never see the word "Ekklesia" translated "church" anywhere from Rev.4 onward throughout the narrative, but only the word "Hagios" translated "Saints" and that because the church is not present during the narrative of God's wrath. It is the great tribulation saints (GTS) who will be here during that time and that because they will have become believers in Christ after the church has been removed and will be caught during that time of wrath. It is these GTS that the beast is given power over to make war and conquer them as described in Dan.7:25 and Rev.13:7.
After Paul outlines the resurrection and catching away in 1 Thes.4:13-18, he then follows with "therefore, comfort one another with these words." If the church was to go through that time of God's wrath, there would be no comfort and that because over 90% of the earths population will be killed, which is supported by what Jesus said regarding this time of wrath:
"For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."
"The elect" mentioned in the scripture above, will be the woman/Israel who will be cared for out in the desert in that place prepared for her by God (Rev.12:6, 14) and the great tribulation saints who come from every nation, tribe, people and language, which means that they will be Gentile believers. God has shortened that time to 3 1/2 years otherwise because of the severity of his wrath there would be no one left on the earth.
Your conclusion regarding our being led astray into a false sense of security because we believe that the Lord is going to gather his church prior to his wrath, is false. My spiritual attitude, as I am sure is the same for all true believers, is to be prepared to be persecuted and even die for the testimony of Jesus and the word of God regardless of the timing of anything. Our faith in Christ does not hinge upon when the resurrection and catching away takes place. Therefore, if we happen to be wrong about the timing of the event of the Lord's gathering, we would continue to resist and go to our deaths if need be. But the fact is, according to scripture, the Lord is going to remove his church prior to his wrath being poured out.
Furthermore and as I continue to demonstrate, Paul and the early church suffered persecution and death from common tribulation at the hands of men with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background and not as a result of God's wrath. Big difference between the two! In opposition to this, the inhabitants of the earth who are here during that last seven years will be exposed to God's direct and deliberate wrath, which will be unprecedented and which will be in fulfillment of "the day of the Lord" in which God is going to decimate the population of the earth and dismantle all human government(Dan.2:31-45, Zeph.1, Isa.13:12).
It is because people don't understand the magnitude and severity of God's coming wrath that they believe that God is going to allow his church to go through it. I will say it again, you will never see the word "Ekklesia" translated "church" anywhere from Rev.4 onward throughout the narrative, but only the word "Hagios" translated "Saints" and that because the church is not present during the narrative of God's wrath. It is the great tribulation saints (GTS) who will be here during that time and that because they will have become believers in Christ after the church has been removed and will be caught during that time of wrath. It is these GTS that the beast is given power over to make war and conquer them as described in Dan.7:25 and Rev.13:7.
After Paul outlines the resurrection and catching away in 1 Thes.4:13-18, he then follows with "therefore, comfort one another with these words." If the church was to go through that time of God's wrath, there would be no comfort and that because over 90% of the earths population will be killed, which is supported by what Jesus said regarding this time of wrath:
"For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."
"The elect" mentioned in the scripture above, will be the woman/Israel who will be cared for out in the desert in that place prepared for her by God (Rev.12:6, 14) and the great tribulation saints who come from every nation, tribe, people and language, which means that they will be Gentile believers. God has shortened that time to 3 1/2 years otherwise because of the severity of his wrath there would be no one left on the earth.
That's probably one of the things you're not understanding, i.e, just HOW he will speak as the "dragon" (Satan). Only need to refer back to Isaiah 14 and Ezek.28 about that, where Satan said he will sit in God's throne and over the congregation, declaring himself he is God. That's also what the two horns like a lamb symbolize, because Who is The Lamb?
No, he doesn't attack Israel when he places the AOD. You're reading into Scripture with that idea. We've already been given the blueprint of Antiochus IV who first took Jerusalem, then went inside the temple to desolate it and place an idol.
You left out these Rev.12 verses, most likely because it gives proof of what I've been saying, and goes against what you're saying:
Rev 12:12-16
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
KJV
Who's the "serpent" per that Rev.12 chapter? Satan, that's one of his many titles per Rev.12:9. What's the "water as a flood" represent? LIES OF DECEPTION, for it's words that come out one's mouth, and that's what he did with Eve in God's Garden, which is why we're given that "serpent" symbol there along with that "dragon" symbol next, so you know who The Lord is pointing to. Our Lord Jesus pretty much showed you that's about Satan and his angels coming to earth in the end of days per those titles He gave about Satan in that Rev.12 chapter, and that's who will be that pseudo-Christ/Antichrist we've been talking about deceiving the whole world.
So you haven't considered that the pseudo-Christ isn't really going to do what the Muslims think? Didn't many of Christ's disciples think Jesus had then come to reign over the wicked at His 1st coming, which is why the scribes and Pharisees were scared Jesus was come to overthrow them? Muslims won't be prepared against Satan's working of deception he's coming to do on earth in the sight of men anymore than those of other faiths are, including many of our own Christian brethren that have been deceived by men's doctrines.
Our Lord Jesus didn't have to use the word temple in that warning, He and His disciples were upon the Mount of Olives looking AT the temple mount complex. That was in view when He was giving that prophecy of the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel. And the Book of Daniel shows the AOD does... involve a temple in Jerusalem. Actually, that Daniel prophecy cannot take place without another Jewish temple in Jerusalem, simply because that is required to fulfill that prophecy. Rev.11:1-2 is showing you another temple in Jerusalem during the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period, which represents the time of great tribulation, the final 7th trumpet - 3rd woe to come after that showing all kingdoms of this world become those of The Father and The Son, revealing His time reign begins at that point.
No, he doesn't attack Israel when he places the AOD. You're reading into Scripture with that idea. We've already been given the blueprint of Antiochus IV who first took Jerusalem, then went inside the temple to desolate it and place an idol.
You left out these Rev.12 verses, most likely because it gives proof of what I've been saying, and goes against what you're saying:
Rev 12:12-16
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
KJV
Who's the "serpent" per that Rev.12 chapter? Satan, that's one of his many titles per Rev.12:9. What's the "water as a flood" represent? LIES OF DECEPTION, for it's words that come out one's mouth, and that's what he did with Eve in God's Garden, which is why we're given that "serpent" symbol there along with that "dragon" symbol next, so you know who The Lord is pointing to. Our Lord Jesus pretty much showed you that's about Satan and his angels coming to earth in the end of days per those titles He gave about Satan in that Rev.12 chapter, and that's who will be that pseudo-Christ/Antichrist we've been talking about deceiving the whole world.
So you haven't considered that the pseudo-Christ isn't really going to do what the Muslims think? Didn't many of Christ's disciples think Jesus had then come to reign over the wicked at His 1st coming, which is why the scribes and Pharisees were scared Jesus was come to overthrow them? Muslims won't be prepared against Satan's working of deception he's coming to do on earth in the sight of men anymore than those of other faiths are, including many of our own Christian brethren that have been deceived by men's doctrines.
Our Lord Jesus didn't have to use the word temple in that warning, He and His disciples were upon the Mount of Olives looking AT the temple mount complex. That was in view when He was giving that prophecy of the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel. And the Book of Daniel shows the AOD does... involve a temple in Jerusalem. Actually, that Daniel prophecy cannot take place without another Jewish temple in Jerusalem, simply because that is required to fulfill that prophecy. Rev.11:1-2 is showing you another temple in Jerusalem during the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period, which represents the time of great tribulation, the final 7th trumpet - 3rd woe to come after that showing all kingdoms of this world become those of The Father and The Son, revealing His time reign begins at that point.
Sorry brother, but you are simply following men's doctrines on those events, and not how God's Holy Writ reveals the end events.
Just prior to the 7th Vial in Rev.16:15, our Lord Jesus is speaking to His Church still on earth, said He comes "as a thief" which links to the "as a thief in the night" metaphor both Apostles Paul and Peter taught about the "day of the Lord" events. The "day of the Lord" events happen on the very last day of this present world to END the great tribulation and the Wicked one's reign. This is why our Lord Jesus was giving that warning on the 6th Vial, because the 7th Vial is the time of His coming and day of His wrath poured out upon the wicked, and His beginning reign over all nations with His elect.
On the 6th Seal of Rev.6, we are also shown "day of the Lord" events that only occur on the day of Jesus' 2nd coming. But those you're listening to instead have taught you to deny those events are the "day of the Lord" timing when our Lord Jesus comes "as a thief in the night".
The specific 'wrath' Apostle Paul was speaking of in 1 Thess.5 is about God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked on "the day of the Lord". That is the timing Paul was speaking of in that 1 Thess.5 chapter with the "sudden destruction" upon the deceived who will be saying, "Peace and safety" during the tribulation time. I covered all that for you in an earlier post on this forum, but you obviously discarded it.
Those teaching you the Pre-trib Rapture theory have kept repeating Paul's idea that we are not appointed to wrath, WITHOUT explaining to you that it's God's wrath to occur upon the wicked on "the day of the Lord", that they have you thinking that is Satan's wrath during the tribulation. They leave that latter part out to trick you, and you've fallen for it.
1 Thess 5:1-9
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
What's the subject there? Paul remarking those already knew "the times and the seasons" concerning the end time events, and... that "the day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night." But upon WHOM will that 'day' come upon as a thief?
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
It is "they" that "the day of the Lord" will come upon "as a thief". That's about the deceived, because they will be declaring "Peace and safety" has come during the tribulation, because that is how that time is to be so the dragon can deceive the whole world. That time of peace is about the very end of this world just PRIOR to our Lord Jesus' 2nd coming. That time of peace and safety is 6th trumpet - 2nd woe timing Jesus showed in Rev.11. After that comes the "sudden destruction" which is God's Wrath on that "day of the Lord" Paul mentioned in the previous verses.
Notice Paul then says that "day" is not to overtake those in Christ "as a thief", because those were not in darkness, why? Because like Paul showed at the start, he had no need to write to them about "the times and the seasons" of the end, which shows they already understood them.
All of this so far is about the coming "day of the Lord", which is when that "sudden destruction" is to occur upon the wicked on the last day. That's the subject, and how those saying "Peace and safety" are deceived, and that "day of the Lord" is the specific wrath event (God's wrath on the last day) which Paul is talking about in the next verses:
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
Those in Christ Jesus are children of light, of the day, not the night nor darkness. We are NOT to be deceived about these events coming upon the deceived on "the day of the Lord" who are spiritually asleep and are not watching the "times and the seasons".
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
KJV
It should make sense that those in Christ are NOT appointed to that "sudden destruction" reserved for those Paul said will be declaring "Peace and safety" during the tribulation timing. That "sudden destruction" is the "wrath" he was speaking about on "the day of the Lord" in that 1 Thess.5 chapter. And that is about a one time event to end this present world and Satan's reign and the tribulation and signal the time of Christ's 2nd coming to gather His Church, which is what is to occur on that "day of the Lord".
I've noticed in some of your writings those men you listen to also have you trying to move "the day of the Lord" timing back to the start of the great tribulation timing, when there is NO Scripture to support that. In all Biblical references of the events to occur on "the day of the Lord", it is about the ENDING of this present world and ending of the wicked's reign on earth.
Just prior to the 7th Vial in Rev.16:15, our Lord Jesus is speaking to His Church still on earth, said He comes "as a thief" which links to the "as a thief in the night" metaphor both Apostles Paul and Peter taught about the "day of the Lord" events. The "day of the Lord" events happen on the very last day of this present world to END the great tribulation and the Wicked one's reign. This is why our Lord Jesus was giving that warning on the 6th Vial, because the 7th Vial is the time of His coming and day of His wrath poured out upon the wicked, and His beginning reign over all nations with His elect.
On the 6th Seal of Rev.6, we are also shown "day of the Lord" events that only occur on the day of Jesus' 2nd coming. But those you're listening to instead have taught you to deny those events are the "day of the Lord" timing when our Lord Jesus comes "as a thief in the night".
The specific 'wrath' Apostle Paul was speaking of in 1 Thess.5 is about God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked on "the day of the Lord". That is the timing Paul was speaking of in that 1 Thess.5 chapter with the "sudden destruction" upon the deceived who will be saying, "Peace and safety" during the tribulation time. I covered all that for you in an earlier post on this forum, but you obviously discarded it.
Those teaching you the Pre-trib Rapture theory have kept repeating Paul's idea that we are not appointed to wrath, WITHOUT explaining to you that it's God's wrath to occur upon the wicked on "the day of the Lord", that they have you thinking that is Satan's wrath during the tribulation. They leave that latter part out to trick you, and you've fallen for it.
1 Thess 5:1-9
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
What's the subject there? Paul remarking those already knew "the times and the seasons" concerning the end time events, and... that "the day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night." But upon WHOM will that 'day' come upon as a thief?
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
It is "they" that "the day of the Lord" will come upon "as a thief". That's about the deceived, because they will be declaring "Peace and safety" has come during the tribulation, because that is how that time is to be so the dragon can deceive the whole world. That time of peace is about the very end of this world just PRIOR to our Lord Jesus' 2nd coming. That time of peace and safety is 6th trumpet - 2nd woe timing Jesus showed in Rev.11. After that comes the "sudden destruction" which is God's Wrath on that "day of the Lord" Paul mentioned in the previous verses.
Notice Paul then says that "day" is not to overtake those in Christ "as a thief", because those were not in darkness, why? Because like Paul showed at the start, he had no need to write to them about "the times and the seasons" of the end, which shows they already understood them.
All of this so far is about the coming "day of the Lord", which is when that "sudden destruction" is to occur upon the wicked on the last day. That's the subject, and how those saying "Peace and safety" are deceived, and that "day of the Lord" is the specific wrath event (God's wrath on the last day) which Paul is talking about in the next verses:
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
Those in Christ Jesus are children of light, of the day, not the night nor darkness. We are NOT to be deceived about these events coming upon the deceived on "the day of the Lord" who are spiritually asleep and are not watching the "times and the seasons".
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
KJV
It should make sense that those in Christ are NOT appointed to that "sudden destruction" reserved for those Paul said will be declaring "Peace and safety" during the tribulation timing. That "sudden destruction" is the "wrath" he was speaking about on "the day of the Lord" in that 1 Thess.5 chapter. And that is about a one time event to end this present world and Satan's reign and the tribulation and signal the time of Christ's 2nd coming to gather His Church, which is what is to occur on that "day of the Lord".
I've noticed in some of your writings those men you listen to also have you trying to move "the day of the Lord" timing back to the start of the great tribulation timing, when there is NO Scripture to support that. In all Biblical references of the events to occur on "the day of the Lord", it is about the ENDING of this present world and ending of the wicked's reign on earth.
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According to Jesus the resurrection of the righteous happens on the last day.
And this is this is the Fathers will which hath sent me,that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again on the LAST DAY. And this is the will of him that sent me that every one which seeth the Son and believeth on him, may have everlasting life and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.
John 6 39 - 40
NO one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the LAST DAY
John 6 44
Jesus saith unto her your brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection on the LAST DAY
John 11 23 -24
If we believe his word then we need to believe that the resurrection of the righteous and the rapture or gathering of ourselves together occurs on the last day of the worlds secular history at his second coming. No resurrection or rapture could take place before or during the tribulation because it contradicts Christs statements that the resurrection happens on the last day.
People in Jesus day believed in a resurrection on the last day. Martha believed this and Christ didn't contradict her or anyone else. therefore the idea of a secret silent rapture seven years before the 'real second coming' either makes Jesus out to be a liar or that people around now spreading this teaching knew more about it than he did.
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven and then the tribes of the earth mourn,and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of Heaven to the other.
Matt 24 29 -31
And this is this is the Fathers will which hath sent me,that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again on the LAST DAY. And this is the will of him that sent me that every one which seeth the Son and believeth on him, may have everlasting life and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.
John 6 39 - 40
NO one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the LAST DAY
John 6 44
Jesus saith unto her your brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection on the LAST DAY
John 11 23 -24
If we believe his word then we need to believe that the resurrection of the righteous and the rapture or gathering of ourselves together occurs on the last day of the worlds secular history at his second coming. No resurrection or rapture could take place before or during the tribulation because it contradicts Christs statements that the resurrection happens on the last day.
People in Jesus day believed in a resurrection on the last day. Martha believed this and Christ didn't contradict her or anyone else. therefore the idea of a secret silent rapture seven years before the 'real second coming' either makes Jesus out to be a liar or that people around now spreading this teaching knew more about it than he did.
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven and then the tribes of the earth mourn,and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of Heaven to the other.
Matt 24 29 -31
P
Then,conversely you have placed the last day of the church at the beginning of the GT.
Its like you destroyed your own argument. (we would have,as pretribbers, a last day before yours)
which is correct. The last day of the church age
No we can place the rapture pretrib via verses that support it. As opposed to the zero verses supporting postrib rapture.
They were wrong about lots of things. Doesn't matter or help either side of the debate.
And no,neither side believes Jesus is a liar. You made that up.
Yes,you are right. he does send his angels to gather us from heaven where we have been 7 years,and we return with him.
(in the gathering of the bride,the pretrib rapture,Jesus himself gathers)....uh,NOT from heaven.
Thanks for the pretrib rapture verification!
Its like you destroyed your own argument. (we would have,as pretribbers, a last day before yours)
which is correct. The last day of the church age
No we can place the rapture pretrib via verses that support it. As opposed to the zero verses supporting postrib rapture.
They were wrong about lots of things. Doesn't matter or help either side of the debate.
And no,neither side believes Jesus is a liar. You made that up.
Yes,you are right. he does send his angels to gather us from heaven where we have been 7 years,and we return with him.
(in the gathering of the bride,the pretrib rapture,Jesus himself gathers)....uh,NOT from heaven.
Thanks for the pretrib rapture verification!
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DP,
You mean these passages?
13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God
14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.
16 "By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones.
Where do you suppose the above takes place? Why do you think war broke out in heaven? Why was Satan cast to the earth? Did Satan do something bad up there?
But there isn't a temple for the A of D to be set up in and there is no prophesy of another (3rd) man-made temples to be built or destroyed again. Where instead are we told the Temple is located?
Revelation 7:15
Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
Revelation 11:19
Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.
Revelation 14:17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Revelation 15:5
After these things I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened.
Revelation 15:8
The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.
Where is the Temple in the above verses located?
Again, what do you suppose Satan was doing up in heaven to cause the war and his expulsion?
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
Why do you suppose there was rejoicing in heaven when Satan was cast out? You don't suppose Satan would have the gall to declare himself to be above God in God's own temple in heaven, do you? I don't know. I wouldn't put it past him.
You mean these passages?
13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God
14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.
16 "By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones.
Where do you suppose the above takes place? Why do you think war broke out in heaven? Why was Satan cast to the earth? Did Satan do something bad up there?
But there isn't a temple for the A of D to be set up in and there is no prophesy of another (3rd) man-made temples to be built or destroyed again. Where instead are we told the Temple is located?
Revelation 7:15
Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
Revelation 11:19
Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.
Revelation 14:17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Revelation 15:5
After these things I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened.
Revelation 15:8
The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.
Where is the Temple in the above verses located?
Again, what do you suppose Satan was doing up in heaven to cause the war and his expulsion?
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
Why do you suppose there was rejoicing in heaven when Satan was cast out? You don't suppose Satan would have the gall to declare himself to be above God in God's own temple in heaven, do you? I don't know. I wouldn't put it past him.
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