the rapture

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
They looked on earth and nobody was found. That was the sad part.

Then the MAN Jesus,from JUDAH/DAVID was found worthy/ABLE to open it.

It was the title deed to earth,Jesus was the kinsman redeemer.

(redeeming the Jews,the bride,and the earth.)
Technically I don't think anybody searched, it was more of a question and it wasn't limited to the earth.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
 
P

popeye

Guest
Not saying "earth only"

I am saying they looked for men.

It says no man was found and John wept.

So yes they did look for a man.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,690
29,027
113
Not saying "earth only"
I am saying they looked for men.
It says no man was found and John wept.
So yes they did look for a man.
Maybe they should have looked for a woman ;)
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
Not saying "earth only"

I am saying they looked for men.

It says no man was found and John wept.

So yes they did look for a man.
Is there a larger point you are trying to make?

Christ was the only one capable of opening the scroll/book.
 
P

popeye

Guest
Is there a larger point you are trying to make?

Christ was the only one capable of opening the scroll/book.
I always wondered what it was John understood that made him,grieve deeply.

I think it had to do with the "kinsman redeemer"

Namely the redemption of man and the earth,the scroll having to do with the deed of the earth itself.

Judah,ancient Judah,was a separate tribe,and kingdom was it not?


The "one worthy" was from Judah.

The earth was cursed at the garden. Satan is the god of this world.

The earth will be redeemed once again. I believe John was grasping the gravity of the doom without a kinsman redeemer.

just exploring this. not setting anything in stone
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
I always wondered what it was John understood that made him,grieve deeply.

I think it had to do with the "kinsman redeemer"

Namely the redemption of man and the earth,the scroll having to do with the deed of the earth itself.

Judah,ancient Judah,was a separate tribe,and kingdom was it not?


The "one worthy" was from Judah.

The earth was cursed at the garden. Satan is the god of this world.

The earth will be redeemed once again. I believe John was grasping the gravity of the doom without a kinsman redeemer.

just exploring this. not setting anything in stone
Interesting observations. The seals do tend to support the "earth/man" - natural and observable. Man seems to be the focal point of the seals. Man is causing the "harm" or action certainly in the first 4 seals. The 5th seal shows us the results of the seal or seals before it. The 6th seal is man understanding and seeing the pending Wrath of the Lamb as man tries to hide from it much as Adam and Eve tried to hide from God after the Original Sin. The 7th seal transitions to heaven where there was silence - calm before the storm if you will.

Interesting...
 
P

popeye

Guest
Pretrib just keeps building. Postrib keeps losing.

I noticed today a verse in rev 11

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

So we have the dead in heaven,with the prophets and SAINTS receiving rewards DURING THE GT.

well,well,well.....wonder how they got there?
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
Pretrib just keeps building. Postrib keeps losing.

I noticed today a verse in rev 11

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

So we have the dead in heaven,with the prophets and SAINTS receiving rewards DURING THE GT.

well,well,well.....wonder how they got there?
Actually, the above doesn't describe the rapture but rather the death then resurrection. The Rapture is "LIVING" taken to heaven. These witnesses were murdered and thus dead.

They are killed when? During the Great Tribulation?

I think so, yes. But when are they resurrected? Prior to God's Wrath. But wait, you said God's wrath is the Great Tribulation. I say, the Tribulation is of Satan and comes BEFORE God's wrath just like the above passage teaches. God's wrath is in direct response to Satan's Tribulation. I am in agreement with scripture, you are not!!

Remember the sequence Paul gives?

that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

The DEAD (in Christ) rise or are resurrected first. AND THEN those who remain are caught up.

Look back at the passage from Rev 11 again. When are the witnesses killed? During which WOE? The Second Woe, right? WITNESSES ARE KILLED AND RESURRECTED then we see this!!

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Thus the Second woe is past. The Lord has yet to come and we have yet to see HIS wrath. Where do the "woes" fit in with the Trumpets? See if you can follow the bouncing ball.

Revelation 8:13

And I looked, and I heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, “Woe, woe, woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!”

Hmm. the 3 Woes are connected to the final three trumpets. Do you see that?

When is the first woe? It is the 5th Trumpet. Look at the timing:

Revelation 9:12

One woe is past. Behold, still two more woes are coming after these things.

Therefore the Second Woe is the 6th Trumpet. That means that the Third Woe is the 7th Trumpet and this 7th Trumpet is when the KINGDOM is announced and HIS wrath is noted.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ...[SUP]18 [/SUP]The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints...

The above passage is at the THIRD WOE, 7th TRUMPET both of which take place AFTER Satan's Tribulation. NICE TRY:)
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
Popeye,

One more point. The 2 Witnesses (which I maintain are the two churches) are killed and their "bodies" are left un-buried, right? At the moment they die, where do their souls go? Up to heaven right? The souls are not staying 3.5 days or years in dead bodies. You would agree with that I'm sure. It is the same then as it is now for a believer who dies.

In prophesy, ONE DAY = ONE YEAR.

Therefore the 2 churches (WITNESSES in ASIA/MIDDLE EAST) are wiped out by Satan's BEAST during the Great Tribulation. This happens at the 4th SEAL = 4th TRUMPET (THE BEAST KILLS THEM, RIGHT?) They are dead for 3-1/2 years. Their souls are seen in heaven at the 5th Seal and as the GM in Heaven (Rev 7). AGAIN NO LIVING BODIES ARE EVER SHOWN IN HEAVEN. The Resurrection occurs relative to the 6th Trumpet (2nd Woe) as I showed in my last post. What is the reaction "on earth" when the Resurrection happens?

and great fear fell on those who saw them.


GREAT FEAR? Why do you suppose the men on earth were afraid? I think it is because they were the ones who killed the 200 million witnesses and now they see them arise. Do you see Great Fear here also?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, [SUP]16 [/SUP]and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

They sure look afraid to me. Why are they afraid? You would be too if you saw this and knew what was coming. 6th SEAL = 6TH TRUMPET

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them.

Thus 200 million saints killed during the Great Tribulation ride with the LORD and slaughter all the men who belong to the HARLOT and BEAST who killed them. These 200 million are seen again in Rev 20:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.

They were beheaded because they refused to follow ISLAM. They held to their testimony and witness to Jesus. Did you see that? Their WITNESS. They are the 2 WITNESSES, 200 million to be exact!! They are souls, not raptured alive saints!! They come back at the 6th Trumpet and kill all the MUSLIMS who followed ALLAH and killed them.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
Popeye, my dear friend. Forget the Rapture for a moment and read the below article. Tribulation of Christians SPECIFICALLY BY MUSLIMS is taking off.

[h=1]9 of 10 Worst Countries for Persecution of Christians Have 50% or Greater Muslim Populations[/h]By Lauretta Brown | January 8, 2015 | 4:06 PM EST
(CNSNews.com) – Nine of the 10 countries with the worst records for persecution of Christians have populations that are at least 50 percent Muslim, according to the assessment of persecution in the Open Doors USA's World Watch List (WWL) 2015 and population information published by the State Department and the Central Intelligence Agency.
The WWL is an “annual survey of religious liberty conditions for Christians around the world" that was released Wednesday.
ype="node" title="muslim

Communist North Korea topped the list for the 13[SUP]th[/SUP] consecutive year for the regime’s extreme persecution of Christians.
But the other 9 countries among the 10 worst had Muslim populations of 50 percent or greater and were cited for “Islamic extremism” as a main cause for the persecution of Christians.
“Approximately 100 million Christians are persecuted worldwide, making them one of the most persecuted religious groups in the world,” said an Open Doors statement announcing the report. “Islamic extremism is the main source of persecution in 40 of the 50 countries on the 2015 World Watch List.”
Somalia, which ranks second on the list, has a “large majority” of Sunni Muslims, according to the State Department. The CIA World Factbook list Sunni Islam as the "official" religion of the country, and the Pew Research Center estimates a 99.8 percent Muslim population.
Muslim men during prayer. (AP)

Iraq and Syria are third and fourth on the list with Muslim populations of 99 percent and 87 percent respectively, according to the CIA’s World Factbook.
“Violence against Christians by the Islamic State and other Islamic terrorist groups increased in countries like Iraq and Syria. More than 70 percent of Christians have fled Iraq since 2003, and more than 700,000 Christians have left Syria since the civil war began in 2011,” according to Open Doors.
Afghanistan, which is fifth on the persecution list, has an 80 percent Muslim majority, according to the CIA. Sudan, according to the CIA is Sunni Muslim with a "small Christian minority. The United Nations Development Programme estimates the Muslim population at 97 percent. Iran (which is 99.4 percent, according to the CIA) and Pakistan (which is 96.4 percent, according to the CIA) are seventh and eighth on the list.
A Christian church in Mosul, Iraq that was destroyed by members of the Islamic State. (AP)

The final two countries among the 10 worst for persecuting Christians each have Muslim populations of 50 percent. In Eritrea 50 percent of the population is Sunni Muslim, 30 percent is Orthodox Christian, and 13 percent is Roman Catholic, according to the State Department. Nigeria is 50 percent Muslim, 40 percent Christian, and 10 percent “indigenous beliefs,” according to the CIA.
Open Doors USA is a Christian human rights organization which has monitored Christian persecution worldwide since the 1970s. Their WWL measures “the degree of freedom a Christian has to live out his or her faith in five spheres of life—private, family, community, national and church life, plus a sixth category measuring the degree of violence.” This year’s WWL was independently audited by the International Institute of Religious Freedom (IIRF).
"Christian persecution," says Open Doors, "is any hostility experienced from the world as a result of one's identification as a Christian. Beatings, physical torture, confinement, isolation, rape, severe punishment, imprisonment, slavery, discrimination in education and employment, and even death are just a few examples of the persecution they experience on a daily basis."
Islamic countries have always featured strongly at the top of the annual Open Doors list, but the number has increased over the past decade.
On the 2004 list four of the top ten countries were Islamic. The number rose to five in 2005 and 2006, to six in 2007 and 2008, to seven in 2009, to eight in 2010 and 2011, to nine in 2012, to eight in 2013, back to nine in 2014, and again nine this year.
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
PlainWord, you've not had a break from the rapture threads for so long. People with careers realize the need to take vacation time. You should also get out more, smell the roses, before the antichrist comes for your head. (Though it's uncertain he'd find you objectionable, but this another matter.)

Anyway, if you want to take a break, I'm willing to fill in, provide this article, surely your favorite, which, after all, explains the rapture much better. If more people read it, we could end rapture threads, and you could get out of that rut, advance your career to disputing, say, even more fundamental doctrines! Open your own business, Preterists R Us, I don't know... go to the Amazon basin, mislead some lost tribe, after all, easier when they don't have scripture... learn jet engine maintenance and work for Kenneth Copeland or Creflo Dollar... maybe just stay here and gnaw away at eternal security, sell kippahs and sabbaths...


 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
Popeye,

One more point. The 2 Witnesses (which I maintain are the two churches) are killed and their "bodies" are left un-buried, right? At the moment they die, where do their souls go? Up to heaven right? The souls are not staying 3.5 days or years in dead bodies. You would agree with that I'm sure. It is the same then as it is now for a believer who dies.

In prophesy, ONE DAY = ONE YEAR.

Therefore the 2 churches (WITNESSES in ASIA/MIDDLE EAST) are wiped out by Satan's BEAST during the Great Tribulation. This happens at the 4th SEAL = 4th TRUMPET (THE BEAST KILLS THEM, RIGHT?) They are dead for 3-1/2 years. Their souls are seen in heaven at the 5th Seal and as the GM in Heaven (Rev 7). AGAIN NO LIVING BODIES ARE EVER SHOWN IN HEAVEN. The Resurrection occurs relative to the 6th Trumpet (2nd Woe) as I showed in my last post. What is the reaction "on earth" when the Resurrection happens?

and great fear fell on those who saw them.


GREAT FEAR? Why do you suppose the men on earth were afraid? I think it is because they were the ones who killed the 200 million witnesses and now they see them arise. Do you see Great Fear here also?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, [SUP]16 [/SUP]and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

They sure look afraid to me. Why are they afraid? You would be too if you saw this and knew what was coming. 6th SEAL = 6TH TRUMPET

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them.

Thus 200 million saints killed during the Great Tribulation ride with the LORD and slaughter all the men who belong to the HARLOT and BEAST who killed them. These 200 million are seen again in Rev 20:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.

They were beheaded because they refused to follow ISLAM. They held to their testimony and witness to Jesus. Did you see that? Their WITNESS. They are the 2 WITNESSES, 200 million to be exact!! They are souls, not raptured alive saints!! They come back at the 6th Trumpet and kill all the MUSLIMS who followed ALLAH and killed them.
Hello PlainWord,

Respectfully, I have to say that I have not seen so much conjecture in place, at one time. How about this: the two witnesses are two men from God, the two olive branches and two lampstands that are before the Lord, who will be prophesying for 3 1/2 years in the streets of Jerusalem and will have power to bring plagues upon the earth as often as they want? When the beast comes up from the Abyss he will kill these two men, which will take place at the end of their 1,260 days (3 1/2 years) and their bodies will lie in the streets not allowing them to be buried. After 3 1/2 days, God will breath life into them (resurrection) and they will ascend up into heaven while the whole world watches on.

In prophesy, ONE DAY = ONE YEAR.
The above is false, for there is not set formula for prophesy. I'm guessing that you are getting the above from when Peter said, "a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day." What Peter said here was never meant to be used as a plumb-line for prophecy, but was meant to convey the Lord's patience, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance (2 Pet.3:8-9).

GREAT FEAR? Why do you suppose the men on earth were afraid? I think it is because they were the ones who killed the 200 million witnesses and now they see them arise. Do you see Great Fear here also?
200 million witnesses? Those 200 million are anything but witnesses, for these are that demonic army that is gathered by those four fallen angels who are held bound at the great Euphrates River and are released to kill a third of mankind and they do it with those 200 million.

What you have written in your post is complete fabrication!
 
P

popeye

Guest
Actually, the above doesn't describe the rapture but rather the death then resurrection. The Rapture is "LIVING" taken to heaven. These witnesses were murdered and thus dead.

They are killed when? During the Great Tribulation?

I think so, yes. But when are they resurrected? Prior to God's Wrath. But wait, you said God's wrath is the Great Tribulation. I say, the Tribulation is of Satan and comes BEFORE God's wrath just like the above passage teaches. God's wrath is in direct response to Satan's Tribulation. I am in agreement with scripture, you are not!!

Remember the sequence Paul gives?

that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

The DEAD (in Christ) rise or are resurrected first. AND THEN those who remain are caught up.

Look back at the passage from Rev 11 again. When are the witnesses killed? During which WOE? The Second Woe, right? WITNESSES ARE KILLED AND RESURRECTED then we see this!!

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Thus the Second woe is past. The Lord has yet to come and we have yet to see HIS wrath. Where do the "woes" fit in with the Trumpets? See if you can follow the bouncing ball.

Revelation 8:13

And I looked, and I heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, “Woe, woe, woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!”

Hmm. the 3 Woes are connected to the final three trumpets. Do you see that?

When is the first woe? It is the 5th Trumpet. Look at the timing:

Revelation 9:12

One woe is past. Behold, still two more woes are coming after these things.

Therefore the Second Woe is the 6th Trumpet. That means that the Third Woe is the 7th Trumpet and this 7th Trumpet is when the KINGDOM is announced and HIS wrath is noted.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ...[SUP]18 [/SUP]The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints...

The above passage is at the THIRD WOE, 7th TRUMPET both of which take place AFTER Satan's Tribulation. NICE TRY:)
You missed the obvious

Rev 11,rewards are being given to the saints in heaven. In Ch 12,Jesus still has not returned.

If the crowns are given out in Ch 11,that would place the rapture before the end of the GT.

JUST MORE PROOF OF PRETRIB RAPTURE
 

EarsToHear

Senior Member
Jan 14, 2016
340
8
0
Remember that religion is one of Satan’s hidden dynasties. He loves to plant false doctrines, which twist Scripture, in Christian churches.


If you believe the rapture, you may find yourself among the following group of deceived Christians when Christ returns.


And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. Revelation 6:16


The above folks are so ashamed because they’ve been worshiping the wrong Christ.


It seems that the rapture people have forgotten how to count. The think the 7th trump comes before 6th ... that the real Christ comes before the false one comes. Christ returns at the 7th trump, not the 6th trump;


At the 6th seal, 6th trump, 6th vial (666), Michael will boot satan, playing his role as the antichrist (instead of Christ in the Greek), from heaven to earth (Revelation Chapter 12:6-9). Keep in mind that Revelation is a Prophetic book making the word SAW into the futuristic word "will" fall etc.


Christ also gave you all 7 trumps in Mark 13, Luke 21, and Matthew 24. Have you read them with understanding?


Before 1830 you can find no mention of the Rapture Doctrine. That alone ought to send up a red flag. In fact, the word "rapture" is not in the Bible. So, where did this false doctrine come from? In 1830 Margaret MacDonald had an evil revelation on her sick bed, supposedly from God, in which she was shown what would become "The Rapture Of The Church", among other names.


And, from The Incredible Cover-up by Dave Macpherson, Appendix A, you'll read:


"I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light." - Margaret MacDonald (Spring of 1830)


MacDonald's revelation would have probably died with her; however, two preachers grabbed it, cleaned it up, and presented it to Christendom. Today, you'll hear many pastors promoting that false doctrine from pulpits.
 
P

popeye

Guest
Remember that religion is one of Satan’s hidden dynasties. He loves to plant false doctrines, which twist Scripture, in Christian churches.


If you believe the rapture, you may find yourself among the following group of deceived Christians when Christ returns.


And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. Revelation 6:16


The above folks are so ashamed because they’ve been worshiping the wrong Christ.


It seems that the rapture people have forgotten how to count. The think the 7th trump comes before 6th ... that the real Christ comes before the false one comes. Christ returns at the 7th trump, not the 6th trump;


At the 6th seal, 6th trump, 6th vial (666), Michael will boot satan, playing his role as the antichrist (instead of Christ in the Greek), from heaven to earth (Revelation Chapter 12:6-9). Keep in mind that Revelation is a Prophetic book making the word SAW into the futuristic word "will" fall etc.


Christ also gave you all 7 trumps in Mark 13, Luke 21, and Matthew 24. Have you read them with understanding?


Before 1830 you can find no mention of the Rapture Doctrine. That alone ought to send up a red flag. In fact, the word "rapture" is not in the Bible. So, where did this false doctrine come from? In 1830 Margaret MacDonald had an evil revelation on her sick bed, supposedly from God, in which she was shown what would become "The Rapture Of The Church", among other names.


And, from The Incredible Cover-up by Dave Macpherson, Appendix A, you'll read:


"I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light." - Margaret MacDonald (Spring of 1830)


MacDonald's revelation would have probably died with her; however, two preachers grabbed it, cleaned it up, and presented it to Christendom. Today, you'll hear many pastors promoting that false doctrine from pulpits.
All postrib tired talking points you got somewhere. (not a bible)

Uh,no I worship the one with holes in his feet,hands ,and side..... So much for petty condescension.

Yes i agree with you about margaret.Her POSTRIB ERRONEOUS VIEWS (you didn't know she was postrib huh?) is probably where you got all your info from.

I bet you shouted in delight when you heard from her own little mind that the church will need to go through the GT for CLEANSING.

Last trump is blown every year at feast of trumpets. But your trumpet concept is more tired postrib doctrine.

Get some real dynamics from the word and lets see what happens.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
Before 1830 you can find no mention of the Rapture Doctrine.
Hello EarToHear,

I don't know why people make the claim above, when the event of the resurrection and catching away (rapture), can be read right in scripture.

Putting aside the controversy of this event and just reading 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-23, The event is clear in that:

* The Lord will descend from heaven with the trumpet call of God (that voice that sounds like a trumpet)

* The dead will in Christ will rise bodily first

* Those who are still alive will then be transformed and caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air


Therefore, how is it that you say that the resurrection and catching away is a false teaching? Regardless of the timing, it will take place just as it is written. Then according to John 14:1-3, Jesus will then take the whole group back to the Father's house, that where Jesus is, we may be also. Consequently, anyone who is not watching and waiting for this event, will be likened to those five bridesmaids whose lamps had gone out and who had no extra oil. The appearing of our Lord is what every believer should be hoping in and watching for, because after that event comes the wrath of God, which will be the fulfillment of the day of the Lord.
 

EarsToHear

Senior Member
Jan 14, 2016
340
8
0
All postrib tired talking points you got somewhere. (not a bible)

Uh,no I worship the one with holes in his feet,hands ,and side..... So much for petty condescension.

Yes i agree with you about margaret.Her POSTRIB ERRONEOUS VIEWS (you didn't know she was postrib huh?) is probably where you got all your info from.

I bet you shouted in delight when you heard from her own little mind that the church will need to go through the GT for CLEANSING.

Last trump is blown every year at feast of trumpets. But your trumpet concept is more tired postrib doctrine.

Get some real dynamics from the word and lets see what happens.
Your problem lies in the following verse:


2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."


The next five verses lay the foundation to what is called the "rapture theory". That is all it is, is a theory; and unproven idea. As we study our Father's Word; set aside all preconceived ideas you have about a rapture, and let's see what Paul is trying to tell the Thessalonians.


It is from these verses that the "rapture theory" was born. Let's see just how willing you are to bet your soul on it, when we take a fresh look at what Paul really said. Because that is what you are doing when you rely on it in the last days.


After Paul told the Thessalonians to live right in the community, and search their souls for sin in their lives, they were then to repent of any sin. Paul moved next to what happens when death comes to this flesh body. This topic is important to Paul, for it is the stabilizing factor to the Christian life. It removes the fear that comes from the unknown of ones death. Paul gives this information for one reason, and that is, that we not be ignorant as the heathen are. In other words, Paul doesn't want Christians stupid.


This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.


The subject of the next five verses are “where are the dead”. The following answers that.


Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."


The "cistern" is the clay flesh body that our soul lives in. The cistern is built to hold the water or life that is within the flesh body, but once that bowl is broken the water or life leaks out of it, just as water leaks out of this flesh body. The "silver cord" is what holds your soul and the spirit together with the flesh body. We can call it the process of thought, which is the intellect of the mind, or soul. When one is brain dead, there is no electrical impulse within the brain, and mankind is considered dead, even though the physical body may still be pumping blood. Life support systems are generally discontinued in most cases.


When that silver cord parts, and the heavenly Father allows it to happen, and this flesh body becomes biologically dead, the very inner man departs for this physical body, and returns to the Father. This decaying body will never be used again, ever. For the soul has entered into its new incorruptible body.


Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."


Then when? After the silver cord breaks, the mind is brain dead, and the body loses its life. Then shall the body "dust" return to the earth as it was, before it was formed into food, and entered your mouth as food to make your flesh body healthy.


The spirit is the intellect of the soul, that gives the soul its identity. This is not complicated. When the body dies, and goes to the grave, the physical body will never have a use again, for the soul has returned to the Father, to God who created it in the first place. Because this is a promise of God, it should be what all Christians look forward to all the days of their lives. That is the day that we will be with the Father and Jesus Christ is heaven, not at some distant time in the future.


When man gets to the point of not being able to understand this promise that at death the soul goes immediately to be with the Father, then he form his religious man made ideas, and sidesteps what God's Word teaches. Friend, it takes only a short time for the body to decay, and there is no body there to resurrect. The body returns to the dirt that it is made of, and the soul departs from that body never to return to it.


God creates the flesh body for your soul to occupy, and He places your spirit within your soul. That is what gives your soul its identity. Then just as God gave it for a brief time, He will take your soul back to Himself, when the flesh body stops having life.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
PlainWord, you've not had a break from the rapture threads for so long. People with careers realize the need to take vacation time. You should also get out more, smell the roses, before the antichrist comes for your head. (Though it's uncertain he'd find you objectionable, but this another matter.)

Anyway, if you want to take a break, I'm willing to fill in, provide this article, surely your favorite, which, after all, explains the rapture much better. If more people read it, we could end rapture threads, and you could get out of that rut, advance your career to disputing, say, even more fundamental doctrines! Open your own business, Preterists R Us, I don't know... go to the Amazon basin, mislead some lost tribe, after all, easier when they don't have scripture... learn jet engine maintenance and work for Kenneth Copeland or Creflo Dollar... maybe just stay here and gnaw away at eternal security, sell kippahs and sabbaths...


Hey my good friend. I see you are still drinking the Rapture Kool Aide. I think Hale Bop will be coming back around soon. Maybe you can get a new pair of sneakers, go sit outside and wait for it:):):). You have a better change of being caught up by a passing comet than you do getting air lifted off the planet before the Tribulation.:):):).