the rapture

[DP]

Just for others who may doubt what I've said here about the singular tense context of the Matt.24:23-26 verses, here it is again, compared to the Matt.24:5 example:

Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

That statement by our Lord Jesus above is in the singular tense. It's very simple, if anyone comes up to you and tells you Christ is here, or there, don't believe it. It does NOT say someone is telling you many antichrists are here or there, which is what the deceivers are trying to make it read.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV

Notice our Lord Jesus in the above 26th verse is also... speaking of a singular false one. He is not saying, if someone comes up to you and says, "Behold, THEY are in the desert", nor "behold, THEY are in the secret chambers." Unmistakably, Jesus' context is about a singular false one, not many.

The 1611 KJV I use is the one in The Companion Bible compiled by the 18th century British Christian scholar E.W. Bullinger. He has the "He" in verse 26 capitalized, because he understood the context is about a singular pseudo Christ coming to play Jesus. There are several Christian Bible scholars who understand this, Dr. James Strong was another one (author of the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance). I agree to it because of the context our Lord Jesus has it in, along with other Scripture evidence of a singular false one coming to play God in Jerusalem, like Paul in 2 Thess.2:4, and Daniel in Dan.8 & 11, and John in Rev.13:11 forward.

In the Matt.24:5 verse, Jesus WAS speaking about many false ones that come in His Name:

Matt 24:4-5
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.


5 For many shall come in my name, saying, "I am Christ"; and shall deceive many.
KJV

In that context of v.5 only, He was speaking of the "many antichrists" of 1 John 2:18. And we have had many of those already, just in my time. But that is not the same context of the later Matt.24:23-26 verses.

 

[popeye]

I accuse you of NOT following Scripture as written and have proven it, as I also accuse plainword of doing the same thing and have proven it, even though both of you are on separate doctrines of men.

Ok go.

Give me your verses.

 

[popeye]

But the way those you heed have deceived you with that "bride/ groom dimension" is that in Jesus' parable of Matt.25, the ten virgins do NOT represent His Bride. They represent the "children of the bridechamber" of Matt.9:15.

Jesus speaking to the disciples of John the Baptist:

Matt 9:15
15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.
KJV

Where is the supposed conflict. He was with them,then taken away.

What is your smoking gun there?

And calling pple deceived that are not is helpful how?

 

[popeye]

But the way those you heed have deceived you with that "bride/ groom dimension" is that in Jesus' parable of Matt.25, the ten virgins do NOT represent His Bride. They represent the "children of the bridechamber" of Matt.9:15.

Jesus speaking to the disciples of John the Baptist:

Matt 9:15
15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.
KJV

Ok, i see what you are saying.

Well jesus said we can not enter unless we become like children,did he not?

And virgins are set apart,undefiled,pure,are they not?

Ideally,and of course "normally" a bride is a virgin,no?

And we are called the bride of christ are we not?

And somehow,instead of connecting the dots,you see an obscure problem?

 

[DP]

Ok go.

Give me your verses.

Give you what verses? Sounds like you've just admitted that you have not read any of the Scripture evidences I've given in my posts here. You've got a long way to go, because they are already here, including my rebuttal with Scripture against the ones you have posted in attempts to prove the Pre-trib Rapture theory of men.

 

[DP]

Ok, i see what you are saying.

Well jesus said we can not enter unless we become like children,did he not?

And virgins are set apart,undefiled,pure,are they not?

Ideally,and of course "normally" a bride is a virgin,no?

And we are called the bride of christ are we not?

And somehow,instead of connecting the dots,you see an obscure problem?

I've showed already in previous posts where the idea of those in Christ staying as chaste virgins comes from, back in the OT, which is where Apostle Paul was pulling from in 2 Corinthians 11. See Isaiah 54 and note what all God applies that idea to.

Bible references to your "bride" idea in God's Word per the 1611 KJV:

Isa 49:18
18 Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth.
KJV

God is speaking that to Zion (Jerusalem) as a bride that clothes itself with His people.

Isa 61:10
10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
KJV

That sounds closest to your bride idea, but God is only using a metaphor still "as a bride". He is not saying we are His bride directly like He does in the Revelation verses.

Isa 62:5-6
5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,
KJV

That one is interesting, because God is saying that about Zion (Jerusalem), how Zion's sons will marry Jerusalem, and so God will rejoice over Jerusalem as a bridegroom does over his bride.

Jer 2:32
32 Can a maid forget her ornaments, or a bride her attire? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.
KJV

God says that about Israel playing the harlot, so that's definitely not about them being His bride.


Joel 2:15-17
15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?
KJV

Is God saying that those of His Salvation are His bride in that? No, because He is remarking how in that time of tribulation the priests and ministers should proclaim a fast, and be weeping to Him and ask Him to spare His people. It's because a condition like in Jeremiah's day will then exist...

Jer 7:34
34 Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.
KJV

In Jeremiah's day, God pronounced judgment upon Judah and Jerusalem, and those things would cease from Jerusalem with God bringing the king of Babylon upon them to take them captive to Babylon.

John 3:29
29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
KJV


John the Baptist refers to himself as "the friend of the bridegroom" (Jesus). He did not say he was the bride.

Rev 21:2
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
KJV

That is a DIRECT statement from God who the bride is, i.e., the new Jerusalem.

Rev 21:9-10
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
KJV

Here's another DIRECT statement who the bride is, and even calling her the Lamb's wife, i.e, the new Jerusalem.

Rev 22:17
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
KJV

There the bride is Jerusalem, which will contain those waters of life being offered.

Then there's the Ezekiel 16 chapter where God is speaking of Jerusalem in her original harlot state before God gave David to conquer it away from the pagans. The whole chapter has to be read to keep the flow to know He is speaking that about Jerusalem, and by that showing His great love for Jerusalem. Yet when I mentioned that, some here mocked that understanding.

 

[DP]

In the OT, God used the idea of a virgin and a harlot in the spiritual sense involving faithfulness or idol worship against Him. He applied the harlot metaphor to both fallen Jerusalem (Ezek.16), and to the children of Israel when they fell away from Him (Jer.3; Hosea 1).

In the NT, our Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul used that OT metaphor again (2 Cor.11; 1 Thess.5 travail with child; Luke 23 about the "barren" and travail with child).

Just as our Lord Jesus did with all His parables, He used real life objects as an allegory for an important Message. Understanding how analogy, metaphor, and allegory works should not be a stumbling block for those in Christ, but I see many brethren struggle with it when they shouldn't, because we all... use those things daily in our speech. Other languages are like our English in that respect, and Hebrew does it lot using idioms and sayings that are an allegory to something.

So how is the virgin, and barren vs. to travail with child allegories meant in the NT? Same way they are meant back in the OT when God's people fell away from Him to worship something or someone else instead.

Per New Testament end time prophecy, what would be the specific object of falling away to do false worship that would make Him the most jealous, especially if you already claimed to belong to Him? That is how our Lord looks at it when He comes, we will either be found having played the harlot against Him in false worship and travailing with child in the spiritual sense (i.e, in labor), or we will have remained a chaste virgin waiting on our true Husband.

What do I mean by that true Husband idea?

Did you know that NT idea of our being espoused to "one husband" is written?

2 Cor 11:1-2
11:1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
KJV


What's the opposite of that state? being found having played the harlot instead, and not found a "chaste virgin". You all do understand what it means for a virgin not... to be found chaste, don't you? This allegory includes that idea of a harlot, because the OT Scripture was where Paul was pulling that idea from, and he even remarked about them bearing with him in his folly with trying to explain this idea to them. He decided to because it's an idea our Heavenly Father used throughout the OT Books, God using it to make sure He gets His Message about falling away from Him across to His people.

1 Thess 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
KJV

Paul is talking about the day of the Lord when our Lord Jesus comes with that time of "sudden destruction", and note the condition he shows they will be in when that happens - "as travail upon a woman with child".

Isa 26:16-18
16 LORD, in trouble have they visited Thee, they poured out a prayer when Thy chastening was upon them.


17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in Thy sight, O LORD.


18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
KJV






Those at Jerusalem knew they were in a bad state, having rebelled against God and following idols. Their condition was as a woman travailing in labor with child.

 

[popeye]

I've showed already in previous posts where the idea of those in Christ staying as chaste virgins comes from, back in the OT, which is where Apostle Paul was pulling from in 2 Corinthians 11. See Isaiah 54 and note what all God applies that idea to.

Bible references to your "bride" idea in God's Word per the 1611 KJV:

Isa 49:18
18 Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth.
KJV

God is speaking that to Zion (Jerusalem) as a bride that clothes itself with His people.

Isa 61:10
10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
KJV

That sounds closest to your bride idea, but God is only using a metaphor still "as a bride". He is not saying we are His bride directly like He does in the Revelation verses.

Isa 62:5-6
5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,
KJV

That one is interesting, because God is saying that about Zion (Jerusalem), how Zion's sons will marry Jerusalem, and so God will rejoice over Jerusalem as a bridegroom does over his bride.

Jer 2:32
32 Can a maid forget her ornaments, or a bride her attire? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.
KJV

God says that about Israel playing the harlot, so that's definitely not about them being His bride.


Joel 2:15-17
15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?
KJV

Is God saying that those of His Salvation are His bride in that? No, because He is remarking how in that time of tribulation the priests and ministers should proclaim a fast, and be weeping to Him and ask Him to spare His people. It's because a condition like in Jeremiah's day will then exist...

Jer 7:34
34 Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.
KJV

In Jeremiah's day, God pronounced judgment upon Judah and Jerusalem, and those things would cease from Jerusalem with God bringing the king of Babylon upon them to take them captive to Babylon.

John 3:29
29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
KJV


John the Baptist refers to himself as "the friend of the bridegroom" (Jesus). He did not say he was the bride.

Rev 21:2
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
KJV

That is a DIRECT statement from God who the bride is, i.e., the new Jerusalem.

Rev 21:9-10
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
KJV

Here's another DIRECT statement who the bride is, and even calling her the Lamb's wife, i.e, the new Jerusalem.

Rev 22:17
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
KJV

There the bride is Jerusalem, which will contain those waters of life being offered.

Then there's the Ezekiel 16 chapter where God is speaking of Jerusalem in her original harlot state before God gave David to conquer it away from the pagans. The whole chapter has to be read to keep the flow to know He is speaking that about Jerusalem, and by that showing His great love for Jerusalem. Yet when I mentioned that, some here mocked that understanding.

"as a bride"
You kid yourself.

"John the Baptist"?,you serious?

Great job. You left all the opposing verses off the table.

Go back,DO A STUDY,a real study on the bride /groom dimension.
That is ridiculous,the way you twist through omission.

Under your "interpretations" No doubt Jesus is a chicken...." ...as a hen gathers her chicks"

Now we can learn Jesus is a hen and Jerusalem a chick"

AND THAT IS A DIRECT STATEMENT FROM JESUS

 

[popeye]

I've showed already in previous posts where the idea of those in Christ staying as chaste virgins comes from, back in the OT, which is where Apostle Paul was pulling from in 2 Corinthians 11. See Isaiah 54 and note what all God applies that idea to.

Bible references to your "bride" idea in God's Word per the 1611 KJV:

Isa 49:18
18 Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth.
KJV

God is speaking that to Zion (Jerusalem) as a bride that clothes itself with His people.

Isa 61:10
10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
KJV

That sounds closest to your bride idea, but God is only using a metaphor still "as a bride". He is not saying we are His bride directly like He does in the Revelation verses.

Isa 62:5-6
5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,
KJV

That one is interesting, because God is saying that about Zion (Jerusalem), how Zion's sons will marry Jerusalem, and so God will rejoice over Jerusalem as a bridegroom does over his bride.

Jer 2:32
32 Can a maid forget her ornaments, or a bride her attire? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.
KJV

God says that about Israel playing the harlot, so that's definitely not about them being His bride.


Joel 2:15-17
15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?
KJV

Is God saying that those of His Salvation are His bride in that? No, because He is remarking how in that time of tribulation the priests and ministers should proclaim a fast, and be weeping to Him and ask Him to spare His people. It's because a condition like in Jeremiah's day will then exist...

Jer 7:34
34 Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.
KJV

In Jeremiah's day, God pronounced judgment upon Judah and Jerusalem, and those things would cease from Jerusalem with God bringing the king of Babylon upon them to take them captive to Babylon.

John 3:29
29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
KJV


John the Baptist refers to himself as "the friend of the bridegroom" (Jesus). He did not say he was the bride.

Rev 21:2
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
KJV

That is a DIRECT statement from God who the bride is, i.e., the new Jerusalem.

Rev 21:9-10
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
KJV

Here's another DIRECT statement who the bride is, and even calling her the Lamb's wife, i.e, the new Jerusalem.

Rev 22:17
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
KJV

There the bride is Jerusalem, which will contain those waters of life being offered.

Then there's the Ezekiel 16 chapter where God is speaking of Jerusalem in her original harlot state before God gave David to conquer it away from the pagans. The whole chapter has to be read to keep the flow to know He is speaking that about Jerusalem, and by that showing His great love for Jerusalem. Yet when I mentioned that, some here mocked that understanding.

Rev 22:17 is not a building talking.

You really jetison the truth that we are the bride of Christ?

You know changing rev is forbidden?


"your bride idea"

Uh,no,I do not fear his word. I do not need to take your omissions off the table,that appears to be your deal for whatever reason you do that

 

[popeye]

That nonsense is why postrib goes extra biblical.

I have never,ever witnessed that blatant of a bible butcher job.

 

[popeye]

I would hate to be a part of a doctrine that does that disservice to the bible.

 

[tanakh]

Another post using men to make your case.

I use a bible.

I obtained a position from doing what you refuse to do.

Openly challenging my own position by placing my views in the opposing camp.

Once I see the first impossibility,I move on.

That is the difference. I can not only show harmony of God's word,I can bring verses to the table you know not of,and demonstrate along side those two dynamics the IMPOSSIBILITY of your position.

IOW,YOU CAN NOT DEBATE ME AND MAKE YOUR CASE.

Not being ugly about it.
But I have examined postrib,and placed myself in that position.
YOU GUYS CAN NOT DO THAT WITH PRETRIB.

Your starting point is WHY.
Your starting point is AntiPretrib.

You START in a "known".
You disenfranchie yourself,and attempt to do us that way.

Your first red flag is that mechanic.
Your second is the ignoring of God's purpose
Your third is that you are trib centered
Your fourth is that we are busy bringing verses/concepts to the table. Your camp invokes a "swatter" to make verses disappear.

The red flags are numerous.That is just four off the top of my head

I do use the Bible. I have in this Debate. What I see from DPs responses to you are whatever passages are used you choose to ignore them or put your own interpretation on. I come to the conclusion that whatever is put forward you not only reject you refuse even to consider or discuss sensibly, so what is the point in continuing? The only thing I do agree with from the above is 'You cannot debate me and prove your case' because you are not in debate but in Denial your replies seem to get more desperate with every posting.

 

[KennethC]

Another post using men to make your case.

I use a bible.

I obtained a position from doing what you refuse to do.

Openly challenging my own position by placing my views in the opposing camp.

Once I see the first impossibility,I move on.

That is the difference. I can not only show harmony of God's word,I can bring verses to the table you know not of,and demonstrate along side those two dynamics the IMPOSSIBILITY of your position.

IOW,YOU CAN NOT DEBATE ME AND MAKE YOUR CASE.

Not being ugly about it.
But I have examined postrib,and placed myself in that position.
YOU GUYS CAN NOT DO THAT WITH PRETRIB.

Your starting point is WHY.
Your starting point is AntiPretrib.

You START in a "known".
You disenfranchie yourself,and attempt to do us that way.

Your first red flag is that mechanic.
Your second is the ignoring of God's purpose
Your third is that you are trib centered
Your fourth is that we are busy bringing verses/concepts to the table. Your camp invokes a "swatter" to make verses disappear.

The red flags are numerous.That is just four off the top of my head

The parts in bold are complete and utter lies popeye.......................

I grew up for many years of life believed in a pre-trib rapture, and heard all the verses and reasoning used to defend this stance.

It was not tell 10 years ago when I started studying God's word that position changed.....

I found in deep study there was too many verses that disagreed with a pre-trib timing, and those verses have not only being given to you by me but by a few others as well. You have chosen to ignore them or play them off some how.

You claim we are doing the swatting to make verses disappear, but I have seen you do the same exact thing in the many different threads on this topic !!!

Paul shows the gathering takes place just before His second coming, and Jesus comes back at the end of the tribulation.........Not the beginning !!!

 

[PlainWord]

Ahwatukee

Hello PlainWord,

Both myself and popeye and others have given you plenty of proof for a pre-trib resurrection and catching away, but you guy's don't listen and that because you are the one's who have been brain-washed

Actually you have provided absolutely NO evidence of a Pre-Trib Rapture. I used to be pre-trib for most of my life but finally came to see the error of such thinking. Therefore I am not brainwashed. You and Popeye have been brainwashed.

You believe that Christ comes before the Tribulation and snatches believers away alive and kicking to heaven to avoid the Tribulation then returns them all when He comes back after the Tribulation. NONE of this and I mean ABSOLUTELY NONE OF THIS CAN BE FOUND.

FYI, only dead people are found in Heaven if you read Revelation. No mention of any living Saint up there, just souls.

 

[Ahwatukee]

You believe that Christ comes before the Tribulation and snatches believers away alive and kicking to heaven to avoid the Tribulation then returns them all when He comes back after the Tribulation

That is a lie, as I have proved scripture over and over again. It is you who has determined to not pay attention to the proof. You're like an amillennialist or a preterist in that, no matter how much scripture is presented, you distort or circumvent it. Regarding the above, it is not Christ coming before tribulation to snatch us out, but to snatch believers out before God's wrath is poured out, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. One of your errors is not discerning between common tribulation, which comes at the hands of mankind with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background, compared to God's direct wrath, which will be unprecedented and will decimate the population of the earth and end all human government. This wrath runs simultaneously with everything that the beast and the false prophet will be performing.

FYI, only dead people are found in Heaven if you read Revelation. No mention of any living Saint up there, just souls.

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters were killed just as they had been."

Well, well! Those souls under the altar in heaven seem to be a lively bunch! Or are you going to write another post saying that I haven't proved anything when it is right in front of your face. Those people under the altar are those who will have died for the testimony they held and are waiting to be resurrected. They are speaking and concerned about being avenged. I'd say, that they seem to be pretty conscious and aware to me. But the real issue is this, no matter what is presented to you, you will only continue to circumvent and distort scripture in order to protect your adopted view, which tells me that you are more concerned about protecting what you have been taught, opposed to finding out the real truth.

 

[DP]

"as a bride"
You kid yourself.

"John the Baptist"?,you serious?

Great job. You left all the opposing verses off the table.

Go back,DO A STUDY,a real study on the bride /groom dimension.
That is ridiculous,the way you twist through omission.

Under your "interpretations" No doubt Jesus is a chicken...." ...as a hen gathers her chicks"

Now we can learn Jesus is a hen and Jerusalem a chick"

AND THAT IS A DIRECT STATEMENT FROM JESUS

What opposing verses? Show me.

 

[DP]

I want to encourage you, in that, searching for knowledge of the end times is commendable. No matter what people say about the rapture, put your trust in God and He will take care of you wherever you go. Now, if I could give a plug for the e- book: "The Coming War of Jesus Christ and the Ten Year Tribulation," you will find the rapture positions among other issues for the serious seeker of end times events.

But we don't need another book from men to understand the simplicity written in God's Word. One only need to stay in His Word instead of... heeding men's doctrines, and they will discover the "times and the seasons" of Christ's 2nd coming like Apostle Paul said those at Thessalonica already knew, and thus were sober, and not spiritually asleep (1 Thess.5).

 

[popeye]

Enoch and Elijah were raptured in the OT.
Jesus was raptured in the NT as first fruits
The patriarchs also,NT
then the church and those dead in Christ in the NT.
The two witnesses next
Then the144k
Then the ones Jesus gathers with a sickle.

How many pretrib,or during trib raptures is that?
I count 7


Post what? I say post what? Rapture?
Where?

 

[popeye]

What opposing verses? Show me.

I am on my phone,but go to bible gateway

Enter bride,bridegroom,marriage,wife,marriage chamber,virgin,pure,spotless...etc.

Then stand back and look at the obscurity you have framed your concept in.

You are the bride of Christ.

If you reject that concept,I,nor anyone else can assist you.

 

[popeye]

I want to encourage you, in that, searching for knowledge of the end times is commendable. No matter what people say about the rapture, put your trust in God and He will take care of you wherever you go. Now, if I could give a plug for the e- book: "The Coming War of Jesus Christ and the Ten Year Tribulation," you will find the rapture positions among other issues for the serious seeker of end times events.

Where do they place mat 25,the gathering of the bride?

Is harvest 4parts?

What do you make of the church,in heaven,on white horses during the GT?