The Rapture

[Jackson123]

Hello Jackson123,



Your cousin is correct! If you will notice, the word "Ekklesia" translated "church" is used throughout Rev.1 thru 3. Within those same chapters you will not find the word "Hagios" translated "Saints." Likewise, from Rev.4 onward you will only see the word "Hagios/Saints" and you will not see the word Ekklesia/Church. The saints that are referred to is that great multitude wearing white robes which no man can count. These are the great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17. Just as your cousin said, these are those who will become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath and the beasts reign.


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brother Awatukee,
I believe that definition of a church is a gathering of saint. What is the different between great multitude of saint and church
and what verse said that this great multitude of saint is the Christian that accept Jesus after rapture

do you believe a man able to repent without the help of Holy Spirit?
don't you believe No more Holy Spirit on earth during the tribulation?
I do not think a branch can bear the fruit with the help of the Holy spirit

and if a branch not bear fruit, will be cut of send to fire/hell/mean non christian

another word, it is impossible to be saint without the help of the Holy spirit

 

[Ahwatukee]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

[Jackson123]

Yes, but that suffering will be by God's hand. The Lamb/Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, followed by the trumpets and then the bowl judgments. These are not common tribulation, but God's tribulation that has been prophesied by the OT prophets and the NT apostles as well.

If you were familiar with Dan.2:31-45, you would understand that the statue represents all human government. The ten-toed kingdom that the Rock/Jesus falls on, is that last kingdom under the control of the beast. When the Rock falls on the feet of the statue, it smashes it to pieces like chaff on a threshing floor and the wind blows it away without leaving a trace, which is figurative for bringing an end to all human government. Then the Rock/Jesus becomes a huge mountain and fills the entire earth, which is figuratively representing Christs' millennial kingdom.

So, the time of God's tribulation is not only restricted to Israel, but includes the entire earth, which is yet to come. There are many verses that also make known that this time of tribulation involves all of the inhabitant of the earth, as can be seen from the following:

One of the heads of the beast appeared to be fatally wounded. But the mortal wound was healed, and the whole world was astonished and followed the beast. They worshiped the dragon who had given authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can wage war against it?”

Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and conquer them, and he was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Whenever you see the words "whole world" and "every tribe and people and tongue and nation" it means the Gentile nations, everyone other than Israel.

God is going to fulfill that last seven years that was decreed upon Israel and at the same time, he is going to pour out his wrath upon the entire Christ rejecting world.

That suffering is cose by antichrist, if a man refused to receive the mark or refuse to worship the beast will be persecute by beast, not by God. God not persecute people who refused worship the beast

 

[Ahwatukee]

Rank bad false teaching I am afraid Ahwatukee.


There are no half-saints. The saints are the Church, and for you to teach and deceive gullible people on this is not good.


It hardly needs saying, but anyway, I say it. Paul makes it clear that the Saints are those who are raptured to be with Christ at his second coming.


2 thess 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.

You shouldn't be allowed to get away with this stuff, but it is a forum, so you do.

Well sorry, but scripture never refers to the great tribulation saints as the church. Also, it is not "rank, bad, false teaching" but is the deeper teachings of God's word, which is why you don't understand them nor do you understand God's plan for end-time events.

2 thess 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.

Boy, you people can't retain information very well. As I have said so many times, the word church and saints are used interchangeably throughout the NT. However, here in Revelation God makes a distinction between the two, using the word "church" only in chapters 1 thru 3 and only the word "saints" from chapter 4 onward. You will never see the word church referred to within the narrative of God's wrath.

 

[Ahwatukee]

That suffering is cose by antichrist, if a man refused to receive the mark or refuse to worship the beast will be persecute by beast, not by God. God not persecute people who refused worship the beast

All that happens during that last seven years will be according to God's plan, not Satan's or the antichrist! Everything that goes on is part of God's plan. He is the One responsible for the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which is the time of his wrath.

 

[J7]

Yes, but that suffering will be by God's hand. The Lamb/Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, followed by the trumpets and then the bowl judgments. These are not common tribulation, but God's tribulation that has been prophesied by the OT prophets and the NT apostles as well.

If you were familiar with Dan.2:31-45,

I am familiar with Daniel 2.

you would understand that the statue represents all human government. The ten-toed kingdom that the Rock/Jesus falls on, is that last kingdom under the control of the beast. When the Rock falls on the feet of the statue, it smashes it to pieces like chaff on a threshing floor and the wind blows it away without leaving a trace, which is figurative for bringing an end to all human government. Then the Rock/Jesus becomes a huge mountain and fills the entire earth, which is figuratively representing Christs' millennial kingdom.
Fantastic. Could not agree more.

So, the time of God's tribulation is not only restricted to Israel, but includes the entire earth, which is yet to come. There are many verses that also make known that this time of tribulation involves all of the inhabitant of the earth, as can be seen from the following:

One of the heads of the beast appeared to be fatally wounded. But the mortal wound was healed, and the whole world was astonished and followed the beast. They worshiped the dragon who had given authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can wage war against it?”

Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and conquer them, and he was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Whenever you see the words "whole world" and "every tribe and people and tongue and nation" it means the Gentile nations, everyone other than Israel.
Yes

God is going to fulfill that last seven years that was decreed upon Israel and at the same time, he is going to pour out his wrath upon the entire Christ rejecting world.

You do at times honestly make a lot of sense Ahwatukee.

But then you say things with no biblical backing.

There is no 7 years - this is complete copyright theft of Daniel.

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17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

The resurrection to life (the time of the dead) and God's wrath on an unbelieving world. Anybody who now dies during God's wrath can only be resurrected in 1000 year's time. There are no saints out of wrath. Pure fabrication of yours. [/FONT]

 

[J7]

Well sorry, but scripture never refers to the great tribulation saints as the church. Also, it is not "rank, bad, false teaching" but is the deeper teachings of God's word, which is why you don't understand them nor do you understand God's plan for end-time events.

Boy, you people can't retain information very well. As I have said so many times, the word church and saints are used interchangeably throughout the NT. However, here in Revelation God makes a distinction between the two, using the word "church" only in chapters 1 thru 3 and only the word "saints" from chapter 4 onward. You will never see the word church referred to within the narrative of God's wrath.

And why is that do you think?

It is because the Church is a battleground, and Satan desires to devour its children.

Those who overcome are Saints. Not all the Church overcomes.

And quit the cheap shots.

 

[Jackson123]

All that happens during that last seven years will be according to God's plan, not Satan's or the antichrist! Everything that goes on is part of God's plan. He is the One responsible for the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which is the time of his wrath.

And not only during the 7 years, the universe is God plan.
the question is, do you believe God persecute his saint?

who kill Stephen? God saint or devil follower?

that is my question brother

 

[Ahwatukee]

I believe that definition of a church is a gathering of saint. What is the different between great multitude of saint and church and what verse said that this great multitude of saint is the Christian that accept Jesus after rapture.

In answer to your question, in Rev.1:19 John was told to write to the seven churches. Then in chapters 2 & 3 we have those letters. Then in Rev.7, John sees a vision of white robed saints and one of the elders asks John who they are? Why would the elder be asking John this question if this group was the church which he already wrote letters to? The answer is, because the elder is introducing a new group of people which he refers to as "those who come out of the great tribulation" ergo, the great tribulation saints. The fact that the word church abruptly stops being used after the end of chapter 3 and is never used again, is a clue that God left us, demonstrating that the church is no longer on the earth from that time forward.

do you believe a man able to repent without the help of Holy Spirit?

How do you think that people of the OT were saved prior to the day of Pentecost? The Holy Spirit did not indwell them, but worked outside of the individual and that is how it will be after the church has been gathered. The Holy Spirit, who is the One who is holding back the man of lawlessness, will be taken out of the way and then that man of lawlessness will be revealed.

I do not think a branch can bear the fruit with the help of the Holy spirit

That is not what the scripture says. Below is the scripture that you are referring to:

"Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me."

So, in order to bear fruit a believer must remain in Jesus. The Holy Spirit will be working in the same capacity that He did prior to Pentecost.

 

[Ahwatukee]

And not only during the 7 years, the universe is God plan.
the question is, do you believe God persecute his saint?

who kill Stephen? God saint or devil follower?

that is my question brother

Regarding the persecuting of the saints, this is why Jesus repeatedly tells us to be watching and ready, so that we don't end up entering into that time of God's wrath. God is going to be bring all kinds of plagues upon this earth, that will affect the entire earth. For example:

"hen the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were flung to the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass."

If you have a third of the earth and trees burned up, whoever is exposed to this will be affected, that includes those who become believers during this time of wrath. Here's another example:

"Next, the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was given power to scorch the people with fire. And the people were scorched by intense heat, and they cursed the name of God, who had authority over these plagues; yet they did not repent and give Him glory."

When that fourth angel pours out his bowl on the sun, all of the people of the earth will be affected by this, including those who will have become believers during that time of God's wrath. There will be no way to avoid these plagues, which is why the Lord is warning us to be watching and ready for his return. Those who become believers after the church has been gathered, will have rejected Christ up to when the church is gathered and then they will receive him afterwards. But they will be exposed to all of those plagues of wrath.

who kill Stephen? God saint or devil follower?

Men and the powers of darkness killed Stephen. But the wrath that is coming is the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath. Everything that takes place during that time will be during God's wrath. God is even going to use the beast and the ten kings to fulfill his will by having them destroy the woman who rides the beast. Evil destroying evil.

What you are not understanding is that, once the church is removed, then the time of God's unprecedented wrath, the worst time that the earth has and will ever see, will begin and that at the opening of the first seal.

 

[J7]

In answer to your question, in Rev.1:19 John was told to write to the seven churches. Then in chapters 2 & 3 we have those letters. Then in Rev.7, John sees a vision of white robed saints and one of the elders asks John who they are? Why would the elder be asking John this question if this group was the church which he already wrote letters to? The answer is, because the elder is introducing a new group of people which he refers to as "those who come out of the great tribulation" ergo, the great tribulation saints. The fact that the word church abruptly stops being used after the end of chapter 3 and is never used again, is a clue that God left us, demonstrating that the church is no longer on the earth from that time forward.

loool.

No Ahwatukee.

After the messages to the Churches, the action shifts to heaven.

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Heaven membership and earthly Church membership are two entirely separate matters.

Who has the right to wear white linen? Who has access to heaven? It is the Saints.

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


THERE IS NO THE IN 'THE GREAT TRIBULATION'.
This is confusing people Ahwatukee. Stop it in the name of the Lord.

It is simple 'megas thlipsis', great suffering.
There is no definite article in the Greek, and there is no definite article in the English.

YOU HAVE MADE THIS UP. STOP IT PLEASE.

Rev 7:4
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Jackson123]

In answer to your question, in Rev.1:19 John was told to write to the seven churches. Then in chapters 2 & 3 we have those letters. Then in Rev.7, John sees a vision of white robed saints and one of the elders asks John who they are? Why would the elder be asking John this question if this group was the church which he already wrote letters to? The answer is, because the elder is introducing a new group of people which he refers to as "those who come out of the great tribulation" ergo, the great tribulation saints. The fact that the word church abruptly stops being used after the end of chapter 3 and is never used again, is a clue that God left us, demonstrating that the church is no longer on the earth from that time forward.



How do you think that people of the OT were saved prior to the day of Pentecost? The Holy Spirit did not indwell them, but worked outside of the individual and that is how it will be after the church has been gathered. The Holy Spirit, who is the One who is holding back the man of lawlessness, will be taken out of the way and then that man of lawlessness will be revealed.



That is not what the scripture says. Below is the scripture that you are referring to:

"Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me."

So, in order to bear fruit a believer must remain in Jesus. The Holy Spirit will be working in the same capacity that He did prior to Pentecost.

1.Let say we visit a big church, and we see a group of man with a nice tie. And we ask to the one of the elder, who are they?
then the elder said they are member of choir.

is that mean they are not a member of church?

2. People in the ot under old covenant, they have to make animal sacrifice and the Holy Spirit not being remove from the earth

we read in the OT Holy Spirit help Moses, David etc

But you believe in tribulation Holy Spirit remove from the earth

in NT Jesus said that branch will not bear the fruit of itself. Mean impossible to be a Christian without the help of the Holy Spirit

 

[Ahwatukee]

And why is that do you think?

It is because the Church is a battleground, and Satan desires to devour its children.

Those who overcome are Saints. Not all the Church overcomes.

And quit the cheap shots.

I don't do cheap shots. I proclaim the truth. Those who do not belong to Christ cannot receive the truth. You don't have enough study in Revelation and end-time events to teach on any of these topics.

Those who overcome are Saints. Not all the Church overcomes.

No, those who overcome are the church. Those who become believers after the church has been gathered will be the saints who come out of the great tribulation, who are not the church. For if they had received Christ prior to the gathering of the church, then they would have been apart of the church and would have been gathered with them.

 

[Jackson123]

Regarding the persecuting of the saints, this is why Jesus repeatedly tells us to be watching and ready, so that we don't end up entering into that time of God's wrath. God is going to be bring all kinds of plagues upon this earth, that will affect the entire earth. For example:

"hen the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were flung to the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass."

If you have a third of the earth and trees burned up, whoever is exposed to this will be affected, that includes those who become believers during this time of wrath. Here's another example:

"Next, the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was given power to scorch the people with fire. And the people were scorched by intense heat, and they cursed the name of God, who had authority over these plagues; yet they did not repent and give Him glory."

When that fourth angel pours out his bowl on the sun, all of the people of the earth will be affected by this, including those who will have become believers during that time of God's wrath. There will be no way to avoid these plagues, which is why the Lord is warning us to be watching and ready for his return. Those who become believers after the church has been gathered, will have rejected Christ up to when the church is gathered and then they will receive him afterwards. But they will be exposed to all of those plagues of wrath.



Men and the powers of darkness killed Stephen. But the wrath that is coming is the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath. Everything that takes place during that time will be during God's wrath. God is even going to use the beast and the ten kings to fulfill his will by having them destroy the woman who rides the beast. Evil destroying evil.

What you are not understanding is that, once the church is removed, then the time of God's unprecedented wrath, the worst time that the earth has and will ever see, will begin and that at the opening of the first seal. [/COLOR]

That why brother I say persecution of saint done by devil not God, and tribulation or persecution during 7 years tribulation is done by the devil

but it is clear in 2 thesalonians 2 that both rapture and second coming happen after antichrist being reveal

 

[J7]

You have virtually invented your own religion Ahwatukee.

No one can stop you, and you no doubt will take others into the pit with you.

I have done my best to counter your heresies.

What can I say?

"If any man thinks he knows something, he knows nothing"

 

[Magenta]

"If any man thinks he knows something, he knows nothing"

You seem to think you know things... You are caught by your own snide device.

 

[Ahwatukee]

1.Let say we visit a big church, and we see a group of man with a nice tie. And we ask to the one of the elder, who are they? then the elder said they are member of choir. is that mean they are not a member of church?

This is not a good comparison. We are talking about the use of the word church from chapter 1 thru chapter 3. That is the only word used 18 times throughout those chapters. The word "saints" is not used at all within those same chapters. Then from chapter 4 onward and beginning in 5:8, only the word "saints" is used and the word church is never used. It is this abrupt change from the word "church" to the word "saints" that is the clue to understanding that the church is no longer on the earth after the end of chapter 3.

In your example above, eventually the person in the choir is going to be referred to as belonging to the church. But here in Revelation, a distinction is being made between the two. You don't just use the word church, church, church, church, church, church and then abruptly stop using the word church and then change to the word "saints" only, without there being some reason for it. The fact that the elder introduces these saints after John already wrote to the church would demonstrate that this group is other than the church.

Regarding all of this, if you want to believe that the Lord is going to send his church through his wrath after promising to keep them out of that time of wrath, you are free to believe this. But I have been studying Revelation and end-time events for over 40 years and I know God's plan leading up to the end of the age.

 

[Jackson123]

Just pope in my mind

a multitude of people with wear with Leann is a Christian who over come during the tribulation.

bible not say that this group accept Jesus after tribulation.

so, some member of this group may accept Jesus before tribulation, some may accept after.

But I believe majority accept Jesus before tribulation, because during tribulation, evangelism is difficult.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Just pope in my mind

a multitude of people with wear with Leann is a Christian who over come during the tribulation.

bible not say that this group accept Jesus after tribulation.

so, some member of this group may accept Jesus before tribulation, some may accept after.

But I believe majority accept Jesus before tribulation, because during tribulation, evangelism is difficult.

Please show me where the word "church" is used anywhere from chapter 4 onward then. Thanks!

 

[J7]

Just pope in my mind

a multitude of people with wear with Leann is a Christian who over come during the tribulation.

bible not say that this group accept Jesus after tribulation.

so, some member of this group may accept Jesus before tribulation, some may accept after.

But I believe majority accept Jesus before tribulation, because during tribulation, evangelism is difficult.

What is your flag Jackson?