The Rapture
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We are not the ones that believe the GT already happened,complete with a non existent mark in the forehead and the nonexistant beheading of those refusing the mark. The " luck" dimension falls on your own system of situational "interpretation".
You guys have to believe,since the GT is supposedly over, that the gathering by Jesus in rev 14,has taken place somewhere in history,as well as the gathering in mat 24 "one taken,one left".
None if that has ever happened either.
You guys have to believe,since the GT is supposedly over, that the gathering by Jesus in rev 14,has taken place somewhere in history,as well as the gathering in mat 24 "one taken,one left".
None if that has ever happened either.
"Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming. It is close at hand—a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness." - Joel 2:1-2
"Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty." - Isaiah 13:6
"The great day of the Lord is near—near and coming quickly. The cry on the day of the Lord is bitter; the Mighty Warrior shouts his battle cry. That day will be a day of wrath—a day of distress and anguish,a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness—" - Zeph. 1:14-15
Just as the prophets of the OT, as with the apostles, John in Revelation and believers of today, "the day of the Lord" which is that time of future wrath, was spoken of by all groups as coming quickly and as being near. The phrase does not mean next week, next month, next year nor is any date ever given for when it will take place and that because the phrase infers imminency.
"Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty." - Isaiah 13:6
"The great day of the Lord is near—near and coming quickly. The cry on the day of the Lord is bitter; the Mighty Warrior shouts his battle cry. That day will be a day of wrath—a day of distress and anguish,a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness—" - Zeph. 1:14-15
Just as the prophets of the OT, as with the apostles, John in Revelation and believers of today, "the day of the Lord" which is that time of future wrath, was spoken of by all groups as coming quickly and as being near. The phrase does not mean next week, next month, next year nor is any date ever given for when it will take place and that because the phrase infers imminency.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
If everything is shortly to come to pass in Revelation,from beginning to end,then why is the earth still around,when it will pass away,and why are the saints not in the New Jerusalem,but the earth is still going on.
The shortly to come to pass is not what people think,for it is longer that what they think.
God said at the day of the LORD that He will punish the world for their sins,and iniquities,against Him,and cause the evil to end,but evil still goes on in the world.
If all prophesy happened in the first century,then why is the earth still going on,for the millennial reign would be over,and the earth passed away,and all the saints in the New Jerusalem.
Shortly come to pass does not mean everything will happen at a short time span,but it will begin shortly,but will continue on for a number of years,until the world rebels against God,and He ends the sin business on earth,which has not happened yet for sin still goes on.
In Revelation God ended the sin business on earth when they rebelled against Him,and the earth passed away,and is no more,which the former earth shall not be remembered,or come to mind,and the saints are in the New Jerusalem where sin has never been,and sin will never be.
How is that shortly come to pass.
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
If everything is shortly to come to pass in Revelation,from beginning to end,then why is the earth still around,when it will pass away,and why are the saints not in the New Jerusalem,but the earth is still going on.
The shortly to come to pass is not what people think,for it is longer that what they think.
God said at the day of the LORD that He will punish the world for their sins,and iniquities,against Him,and cause the evil to end,but evil still goes on in the world.
If all prophesy happened in the first century,then why is the earth still going on,for the millennial reign would be over,and the earth passed away,and all the saints in the New Jerusalem.
Shortly come to pass does not mean everything will happen at a short time span,but it will begin shortly,but will continue on for a number of years,until the world rebels against God,and He ends the sin business on earth,which has not happened yet for sin still goes on.
In Revelation God ended the sin business on earth when they rebelled against Him,and the earth passed away,and is no more,which the former earth shall not be remembered,or come to mind,and the saints are in the New Jerusalem where sin has never been,and sin will never be.
How is that shortly come to pass.
Because the kingdom of heaven WAS at hand and it shortly came to pass. You're looking for an antichrist and 7 year peace treaty that will never come to come to pass... so you're shortly will never come.
The kingdom of heaven came, Jesus said it came, the scriptures testify that it came and you futurist deny it and CHANGE the word SHORTLY to mean anything but shortly.
The kingdom of heaven came, Jesus said it came, the scriptures testify that it came and you futurist deny it and CHANGE the word SHORTLY to mean anything but shortly.
Anybody ever considered that the day of the Lord mentioned multiple times is not always about the same one event? In Isaiah we see the Lord riding on a cloud to Egypt. This is a past event, its apocalyptic language not something that will happen in the future. There were many local judgments in the Old Testament.
Food for thought.
Food for thought.
Morning Bogadle,
There is only one day of the Lord, which is not a day in length, but a time period. It is a specific, unprecedented time of wrath that will be in operation in conjunction with the last seven years leading up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age. Though unknown to the OT prophets, the time of wrath is described in detail in Revelation via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth," "When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth," declares the LORD. I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea-- and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble." "When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth," declares the LORD,"
The above was prophesied by the prophet Zephaniah. I'm sure that you will agree that none of what is written has yet taken place. Zephaniah's prophecy,as well as Isaiah's and Joel's, fits perfectly with the destruction and the decimation of the population of the earth found in Revelation as a result of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
The day of the Lord is one time event reserved for that last seven years, which is almost upon us.
There is only one day of the Lord, which is not a day in length, but a time period. It is a specific, unprecedented time of wrath that will be in operation in conjunction with the last seven years leading up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age. Though unknown to the OT prophets, the time of wrath is described in detail in Revelation via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth," "When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth," declares the LORD. I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea-- and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble." "When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth," declares the LORD,"
The above was prophesied by the prophet Zephaniah. I'm sure that you will agree that none of what is written has yet taken place. Zephaniah's prophecy,as well as Isaiah's and Joel's, fits perfectly with the destruction and the decimation of the population of the earth found in Revelation as a result of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
The day of the Lord is one time event reserved for that last seven years, which is almost upon us.
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Ahwatukee when Edom was judged, similar apocalyptic language was used, which if taken literally would mean the end of the universe at the very least. Example:
Isaiah 34:1-10
34 Draw near, O nations, to hear,
and hearken, O peoples!
Let the earth listen, and all that fills it;
the world, and all that comes from it.
2 For the Lord is enraged against all the nations,
and furious against all their host,
he has doomed them, has given them over for slaughter.
3 Their slain shall be cast out,
and the stench of their corpses shall rise;
the mountains shall flow with their blood.
4 All the host of heaven shall rot away,
and the skies roll up like a scroll.
All their host shall fall,
as leaves fall from the vine,
like leaves falling from the fig tree.
5 For my sword has drunk its fill in the heavens;
behold, it descends for judgment upon Edom,
upon the people I have doomed.
6 The Lord has a sword; it is sated with blood,
it is gorged with fat,
with the blood of lambs and goats,
with the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah,
a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 Wild oxen shall fall with them,
and young steers with the mighty bulls.
Their land shall be soaked with blood,
and their soil made rich with fat.
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
9 And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch,
and her soil into brimstone;
her land shall become burning pitch.
10 Night and day it shall not be quenched;
its smoke shall go up for ever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
Notice we have the skies rolling open, streams of Edom turning to pitch, all the host of heaven shall rot away.
In the beginning it talks about hear O nations and peoples yet later on in the chapter we see that Edom is in view, not the entire planet. It says the Lord is enraged against all nations, let the earth listen and all that fills it.
So it would not be very out of character to the Hebrew prophets for Isaiah 13 to be using such language depicting the judgment on Egypt.
.As I see it, the day of the Lord refers to a coming judgment, whether it be local or global.
Isaiah 34:1-10
34 Draw near, O nations, to hear,
and hearken, O peoples!
Let the earth listen, and all that fills it;
the world, and all that comes from it.
2 For the Lord is enraged against all the nations,
and furious against all their host,
he has doomed them, has given them over for slaughter.
3 Their slain shall be cast out,
and the stench of their corpses shall rise;
the mountains shall flow with their blood.
4 All the host of heaven shall rot away,
and the skies roll up like a scroll.
All their host shall fall,
as leaves fall from the vine,
like leaves falling from the fig tree.
5 For my sword has drunk its fill in the heavens;
behold, it descends for judgment upon Edom,
upon the people I have doomed.
6 The Lord has a sword; it is sated with blood,
it is gorged with fat,
with the blood of lambs and goats,
with the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah,
a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 Wild oxen shall fall with them,
and young steers with the mighty bulls.
Their land shall be soaked with blood,
and their soil made rich with fat.
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
9 And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch,
and her soil into brimstone;
her land shall become burning pitch.
10 Night and day it shall not be quenched;
its smoke shall go up for ever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
Notice we have the skies rolling open, streams of Edom turning to pitch, all the host of heaven shall rot away.
In the beginning it talks about hear O nations and peoples yet later on in the chapter we see that Edom is in view, not the entire planet. It says the Lord is enraged against all nations, let the earth listen and all that fills it.
So it would not be very out of character to the Hebrew prophets for Isaiah 13 to be using such language depicting the judgment on Egypt.
.As I see it, the day of the Lord refers to a coming judgment, whether it be local or global.
We all still read the OT even though most of us realize most events are over. Preterists (partial and full) are among the best read students of the Bible, that's why were are preterists. I started out as a pre-trib futurist but the more I studied, the more I learned. You won't find one preterist who became a pre-trib dispensationalist over time.
Thanks for sharing. Nobody has it all figured out. Most of what I believe concerning Revelation I feel there is strong evidence for, the identity of the Beast and Harlot, etc. However, the mark is a little less certain, you are correct in that. After reading Josephus and much of the early Christian writers, I've come to realize that too much of the events of 66-70 AD fit and can be tied to Mat 24, most of Rev, etc for most of these events not to have been fulfilled. Add that to the fact that all of the NT writings on the subject call for imminent or first century fulfillment written in a very personal way. Nothing implied a 2,000 year gap. Nothing implies the comfort, blessings, rewards, commands and even the wrath to be passed down through 100 generations. It would be like me knowing my end is coming soon and writing words of wisdom to my descendants 2,000 years and 100 generations removed without having anything to say to my sons or grandsons. Its the people you know and love who you comfort and instruct.
That said, Josephus is our only historian of the era and he was loyal to Titus, even taking Titus' name. He wrote War of the Jews at the request of Titus. So, we have to assume that he put Titus in the best possible light and left out a few details. The Talmud adds in a lot of evil Titus allegedly did but can't really depend too much on it either.
So again, it comes down to preponderance of the evidence. I see so much first century fulfillment along with multiple teachings by Christ Himself that He would return to THAT generation. Take that along with the fact that one would expect to see extensive coverage of the end of Israel which there wouldn't be if we add 2,000 years and skip it in favor of a future desolation. Also, the very earliest of the church writers from 80 AD to 200 AD don't mention a word about any future desolation, or return of Christ when all the apostles, and Jesus, covered these topics in depth. It's like, "This was big news last century and everyone knew about it so we don't need to discuss it anymore."
I hope you can sort things out but if not, know that you will be with the Lord instantly and with your glorified body and not have to sleep in Hades first anymore. Of this much, I'm 100% positive.
That said, Josephus is our only historian of the era and he was loyal to Titus, even taking Titus' name. He wrote War of the Jews at the request of Titus. So, we have to assume that he put Titus in the best possible light and left out a few details. The Talmud adds in a lot of evil Titus allegedly did but can't really depend too much on it either.
So again, it comes down to preponderance of the evidence. I see so much first century fulfillment along with multiple teachings by Christ Himself that He would return to THAT generation. Take that along with the fact that one would expect to see extensive coverage of the end of Israel which there wouldn't be if we add 2,000 years and skip it in favor of a future desolation. Also, the very earliest of the church writers from 80 AD to 200 AD don't mention a word about any future desolation, or return of Christ when all the apostles, and Jesus, covered these topics in depth. It's like, "This was big news last century and everyone knew about it so we don't need to discuss it anymore."
I hope you can sort things out but if not, know that you will be with the Lord instantly and with your glorified body and not have to sleep in Hades first anymore. Of this much, I'm 100% positive.
PlainWord if I understand you correctly you say that the parousia or presence of Christ returned in 70AD.
But this does not make much sense, considering that His presence is already present before 70AD, when you might ask? At Pentecost at the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Certainly that counts as a presence return? How did that change in 70AD?
But this does not make much sense, considering that His presence is already present before 70AD, when you might ask? At Pentecost at the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Certainly that counts as a presence return? How did that change in 70AD?
Ricky,
Again, we all read all of the Bible, even Genesis and Exodus. Hopefully even VCO, Popeye and AHW don't think those events are future, you don't do you guys? There is much to be gained from reading the NT (even though some of us think much of the NT prophesy is fulfilled) such as how to live a good Christian life, to love and care for each other, to be humble, meek and giving. To share the Gospel so that more can be saved, etc., etc.
There are still many things that apply to us such as:
Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Jesus is telling us that although we have not seen Him, and yet we still believed, that we will be blessed! This applies equally to us as it does to those born after 30-33 AD, or those living in other nations that never met Christ.
Again, we all read all of the Bible, even Genesis and Exodus. Hopefully even VCO, Popeye and AHW don't think those events are future, you don't do you guys? There is much to be gained from reading the NT (even though some of us think much of the NT prophesy is fulfilled) such as how to live a good Christian life, to love and care for each other, to be humble, meek and giving. To share the Gospel so that more can be saved, etc., etc.
There are still many things that apply to us such as:
Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Jesus is telling us that although we have not seen Him, and yet we still believed, that we will be blessed! This applies equally to us as it does to those born after 30-33 AD, or those living in other nations that never met Christ.