The Rapture

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Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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Personally with the four seperate eschatologyical views that theologians for centuries have come up with I don't care which group of Christians came up with any of them. I am unable to place my trust in any of them Jesuit or not. What is your problem with the Jesuit? They are fellow Christians.

Revelation and Daniel using symbols are as clear as mud. Only looking back can some things be understood. Daniel's statue for example. Hindsight gives clarity to the mud. About 55 years ago I started researching Daniel and Revelation and tried to figure out a timeline and failed. Then I did reading and had classes for elders and deacons on the subject from pastors of the church I was attending. The result was that the timeline remained as clear as mud. They explained each of the eschatologyical views. There were 4 pastors and each view was held by one of the pastors.

So are you able to explain the timeline accurately. If so will it fit one of the 4 views or be a different one?[/QUOT

1. To my knowledge, pretrib doctrine start by Jesuit

2. I do not consider catholic as Christian. Why ?

A. I believe one world government is antichrist government why pope promote it? To me it mean catholic work for lucifer.

https://www.charismanews.com/opinio...ted-a-one-world-religion-or-a-new-world-order

2. Christian not bow to the statue

11 PHOTOS: PRAYING And BOWING Down Before The Graven Image Of MARY Is A SIN! - Religion - Nigeria
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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i am not only consider the terminology, it just what you call. But what it mean, base on 2 thess 2 the rapture happen after tribulation
I see nothing there that places him in the timeline of the tribulation. Please explain it to me.
There are arguments for just before the trib, after the starting of the trib, mid trib, etc.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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I see nothing there that places him in the timeline of the tribulation. Please explain it to me.
There are arguments for just before the trib, after the starting of the trib, mid trib, etc.

2 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?



1. What is Paul want to say in this letter, it show in verse one. He want to talk about,

he want to talk about the coming of the Lord/second coming and our gathering together unto him/ rapture

2 why Paul address this issue?

verse 2 indicate that some people claim get revelation from the spirit, or letter from Apostle that that day(second coming and rapture) is in hand.

3. Paul explain the time line

verse 3, that day will come after a man of sin (antichrist ) be revealed.

verse 4 and 5 is what the antichrist do.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
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2 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?



1. What is Paul want to say in this letter, it show in verse one. He want to talk about,

he want to talk about the coming of the Lord/second coming and our gathering together unto him/ rapture

2 why Paul address this issue?

verse 2 indicate that some people claim get revelation from the spirit, or letter from Apostle that that day(second coming and rapture) is in hand.

3. Paul explain the time line

verse 3, that day will come after a man of sin (antichrist ) be revealed.

verse 4 and 5 is what the antichrist do.


in a plain language Paul said: do not believe rapture happen before man of sin be reveal


​or do not believe rapture before tribulation.
 
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[/COLOR]

It doesn't mention Jesus coming during any of the trumpets, much less the clouds.



There are many trumpets listed in scripture with different purposes. The "last trumpet" of 1 Cor.15:52 is not the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments. If you will read the 7th trumpet, no where in or around the context is there anything mentioned about the church being gathered. In addition, the "loud trumpet call" of Matt.24:31 is also not the "last trumpet" of 1 Cor.15:52. Reason being is that the 7th trumpet is a plague of wrath, where the "last trumpet" is the blessed hope for the church. If the church were to be gathered at the 7th trumpet, it would mean that the church would have to go through the seals and the other six trumpets, which are all the wrath of God.

The the Lord arriving on the clouds of heaven in Matt.24:30, is synonymous with the clouds mentioned in Rev.1:7 and that because they are speaking of the same event, which is the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

It is of paramount to discern between the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. They are two different events.
[/COLOR]
Well, I am still not convinced in a pre-trib rapture because our blessed hope is not being raptured pre-trib, but His second advent. The reason I say this is because we are going through Joel in our Wednesday night bible study class, and my pastor is presenting it through a dispensationial pre-mill, pre-trib view. When asked if ppl can be saved during the trib/great trib, he said it would be hard. Uh huh. Suuuuuuure!!! The ekklesia and the Spirit have been taken out and ppl can be saved without the Spirit's presence? Suuuuuuure!!

Now, didn't you say before in an earlier post, you believed no one here on earth during the seven years of trib would be saved? I could agree with that much of your stance if I remember what you said correctly.

Please expound. Thanks again, my Brother.
 
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Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
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Personally with the four seperate eschatologyical views that theologians for centuries have come up with I don't care which group of Christians came up with any of them. I am unable to place my trust in any of them Jesuit or not. What is your problem with the Jesuit? They are fellow Christians.

Revelation and Daniel using symbols are as clear as mud. Only looking back can some things be understood. Daniel's statue for example. Hindsight gives clarity to the mud. About 55 years ago I started researching Daniel and Revelation and tried to figure out a timeline and failed. Then I did reading and had classes for elders and deacons on the subject from pastors of the church I was attending. The result was that the timeline remained as clear as mud. They explained each of the eschatologyical views. There were 4 pastors and each view was held by one of the pastors.

So are you able to explain the timeline accurately. If so will it fit one of the 4 views or be a different one?[/QUOT

1. To my knowledge, pretrib doctrine start by Jesuit

2. I do not consider catholic as Christian. Why ?

A. I believe one world government is antichrist government why pope promote it? To me it mean catholic work for lucifer.

https://www.charismanews.com/opinio...ted-a-one-world-religion-or-a-new-world-order

2. Christian not bow to the statue

11 PHOTOS: PRAYING And BOWING Down Before The Graven Image Of MARY Is A SIN! - Religion - Nigeria
You make severe judgments on all Catholics based on some pictures from Nigeria. How about doing the same for every denomination where more than 1 mminister/preacher/priest has been accused of sexual misconduct. That would eliminate all denominations from being considered Christian. You ignore the simple fact that "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". Are you saying you haven't sinned?

Explain where the Catholics do not live up to the Apostles Creed. It was created to seperate Christians from non Christians.

Apostles creed

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried.
He descended into hell.
On the third day He rose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
From thence He will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Christian Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

Demonstrate where Catholics fail.

I have many disagreements with Catholicism in many distinctives but never heard where they deviate from the Creed.
 
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Brother Endoscopy,

I am not sure what your eschatological stance is, but can you show me one verse or passage that unequivocally shows a pre-trib rapture? I see the usual 1 Thess. 4:13-18 and Revelation 4:1, but there is not one mention of a tribulation, whether it be pre-, mid-, or post-trib.

Brother Ahwatuke(please forgive me if I spelled your username wrong Brother Ah) has shown a bunch of passages, but they do not proved a pre-trib rapture, imo.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
You make severe judgments on all Catholics based on some pictures from Nigeria. How about doing the same for every denomination where more than 1 mminister/preacher/priest has been accused of sexual misconduct. That would eliminate all denominations from being considered Christian. You ignore the simple fact that "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". Are you saying you haven't sinned?

Explain where the Catholics do not live up to the Apostles Creed. It was created to seperate Christians from non Christians.

Apostles creed

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried.
He descended into hell.
On the third day He rose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
From thence He will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Christian Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

Demonstrate where Catholics fail.

I have many disagreements with Catholicism in many distinctives but never heard where they deviate from the Creed.
catholic all over the world bow down before statue, my country include. My aunt is catholic.

Preacher may commit adultery, and it is sin, but to teach adultery not sin is different story.

Vatican promote one world government, to my knowledge it is antichrist government, promote antichrist government mean working for Lucifer.

every body are sinner, but promote lucifer government is premeditated sin, it is pure Luciferian
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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400
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in a plain language Paul said: do not believe rapture happen before man of sin be reveal


​or do not believe rapture before tribulation.
Been through this many times.
1. The temple must be built.
2. The man will be making himself be known about before the tribulation starts.
3. He will seat himself most likely mid trib or possibly before.
4. Jesus will return causing the rapture some time before the 7 year intense tribulation.
5. How long before is the question. Mid trib, nearer the begining of the trib, or just before. The just before is the least favored mid trib is most favored.

I always wondered about the timing of the rapture and the seating of the man of sin in the temple claiming to be God. Would the faithful be allowed to see that.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Been through this many times.
1. The temple must be built.
2. The man will be making himself be known about before the tribulation starts.
3. He will seat himself most likely mid trib or possibly before.
4. Jesus will return causing the rapture some time before the 7 year intense tribulation.
5. How long before is the question. Mid trib, nearer the begining of the trib, or just before. The just before is the least favored mid trib is most favored.

I always wondered about the timing of the rapture and the seating of the man of sin in the temple claiming to be God. Would the faithful be allowed to see that.
read back #7763
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Brother Endoscopy,

I am not sure what your eschatological stance is, but can you show me one verse or passage that unequivocally shows a pre-trib rapture? I see the usual 1 Thess. 4:13-18 and Revelation 4:1, but there is not one mention of a tribulation, whether it be pre-, mid-, or post-trib.

Brother Ahwatuke(please forgive me if I spelled your username wrong Brother Ah) has shown a bunch of passages, but they do not proved a pre-trib rapture, imo.
LOL
I am pan trib since even the theologians have created 4 views of it and my studies just left me confused. I believe it will all pan out in the end. I personally don't hold to the pre trib view. Some do. Since it is as clear as mud to me I threw up my hands in defeat of figuring it out and finding out there were 4 main views with each having minor sub views I understand why I was confused. No one really knows. No other part of scripture has so many widely divergent understanding of the issue. Mostly the other doctrinal issues have comparatively much much smaller disagreements.

Que será, será
Whatever will be, will be
The future's not ours to see
Que será, será
What will be, will be
Que será, será
 
Dec 28, 2016
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LOL
I am pan trib since even the theologians have created 4 views of it and my studies just left me confused. I believe it will all pan out in the end. I personally don't hold to the pre trib view. Some do. Since it is as clear as mud to me I threw up my hands in defeat of figuring it out and finding out there were 4 main views with each having minor sub views I understand why I was confused. No one really knows. No other part of scripture has so many widely divergent understanding of the issue. Mostly the other doctrinal issues have comparatively much much smaller disagreements.

Que será, será
Whatever will be, will be
The future's not ours to see
Que será, será
What will be, will be
Que será, será
Well, my main concern with pre-trib is there is not one verse or passage that unequivocally, explicitly states the rapture of the church is pre-trib. Shoot, there's not one verse or passage of scriptures that unequivocally or explicitly states a mid- or post-trib rapture, but I do think Matthew 24:29-31 is pretty close to showing a post-trib rapture.

As I was reading some online articles one popped out to me. A guy says that not one verse in the NT states the temple will be rebuilt. Now, its in the OT however. But it struck me odd that ppl will reinstitute animal sacrifice whilst the Christ is reigning.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
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Well, my main concern with pre-trib is there is not one verse or passage that unequivocally, explicitly states the rapture of the church is pre-trib. Shoot, there's not one verse or passage of scriptures that unequivocally or explicitly states a mid- or post-trib rapture, but I do think Matthew 24:29-31 is pretty close to showing a post-trib rapture.

As I was reading some online articles one popped out to me. A guy says that not one verse in the NT states the temple will be rebuilt. Now, its in the OT however. But it struck me odd that ppl will reinstitute animal sacrifice whilst the Christ is reigning.
matt 24

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.



verse 21 and 22 indicate the elect or

christian still on earth, not rapture yet

when tribulation happen

 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 24:21-22, "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not come to pass since the beginning of the world to this time--no, nor ever will be. And unless those days were shortened, there would no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 24:29-31, “And immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”[/FONT]
 
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matt 24

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.



verse 21 and 22 indicate the elect or

christian still on earth, not rapture yet

when tribulation happen

You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.
 
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Mat 24:21-22, "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not come to pass since the beginning of the world to this time--no, nor ever will be. And unless those days were shortened, there would no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened."


Mat 24:29-31, “And immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”
You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Mat 24:21-22, "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not come to pass since the beginning of the world to this time--no, nor ever will be. And unless those days were shortened, there would no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened."


Mat 24:29-31, “And immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and


they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other
.”

Yep red color mean rapture and it happen after tribulation/post trib
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Good day SovereignGrace,

Well, I am still not convinced in a pre-trib rapture because our blessed hope is not being raptured pre-trib, but His second advent.


Our "Blessed hope" according to scripture is as follows:

"
waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ"

Now, if you interpret the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age as being the same event, then you will err in your interpretation. Since the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place prior to the Lord returning to the earth to end the age, then if you have the gathering of the church taking place at the same time, it could not be a blessed hope, nor could we comfort one another with that hope, because we would have to first go through God's wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer.

However, by the church being gathered prior to God's wrath, then it would be a blessed hope and believers could comfort one another with that hope. But there would be no blessed hope nor comfort if we had to go through God's wrath first.

There is a big difference between the trials and tribulations that believers go through which come at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness vs. the unprecedented coming wrath of God, which will be God's direct wrath upon mankind decimating the majority of the earths population and the dismantling of all human government. Regarding this, the church cannot be here, for Jesus already suffer God's wrath on every believers behalf, satisfying it completely.

The reason I say this is because we are going through Joel in our Wednesday night bible study class, and my pastor is presenting it through a dispensationial pre-mill, pre-trib view. When asked if ppl can be saved during the trib/great trib, he said it would be hard. Uh huh. Suuuuuuure!!! The ekklesia and the Spirit have been taken out and ppl can be saved without the Spirit's presence? Suuuuuuure!!

Now, didn't you say before in an earlier post, you believed no one here on earth during the seven years of trib would be saved? I could agree with that much of your stance if I remember what you said correctly.


No, I never did say that "no one would be saved during the seven years" nor would I. God has given the world His word and there are those who don't do well with verbal warning. And so God, like a parent, is going to use physical measures to get peoples attention. Unfortunately there will still be those who will resist this as well.

People will indeed be saved during that last seven years, which is what the introduction of the great tribulation saints in Rev.7:9-17 is in reference to. These are those during the time of God's wrath who will believe in Christ after the church has been removed. The majority of them will be killed because of their faith during that time. Though the Spirit will be taken out of the way and the church with Him, He will work in the same manner as He did prior to Christ coming in the flesh. The woman/Israel will also be saved, as she will flee out into the desert where she will be cared for during that last 3 1/2 years. Both of these groups will be those who will repopulate the earth during the millennial period.
 
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Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”


Hizikyah, the above is not referring to the gathering of the church. This is why I said that it is important to understand that the gathering of the church is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, which is what the scripture above is referring to. Those who are being gathered by the angels in Matt.24:31 will be those great tribulation saints who will have made it through the time of God's wrath alive. They will be those who will enter into the millennial period in their mortal bodies and repopulate the earth. The phrase "
they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other” simply means that the angels will be gathering the saints from the every corner of the earth and has nothing to do with a rapture. Matt.24:31 is not referring to the living being changed and caught up. Again, if the were the case, it would mean that the church would have to go through the entire wrath of God, which would have taken place first.

When coming to a conclusion regarding end-time events you have to take all related scripture into consideration. According to your claim above, you are not doing that.

I reiterate, Matt.24:31 is not referring to the gathering of the church, but is referring to the gathering of those who will have made alive through the time of God's wrath in their mortal bodies and are those who will be gathered by the angels.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Well, my main concern with pre-trib is there is not one verse or passage that unequivocally, explicitly states the rapture of the church is pre-trib.


That's because there isn't one! The timing of the gathering of the church is deduced by comparing and cross-referencing all related end-time scriptures. For example, since the word of God states that believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath and that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath, then the church cannot go through God's wrath.

Therefore, this truth has to be taken into consideration when forming an interpretation regarding the timing of the gathering of the church. It's a boundary that the church can't cross. This is exactly why I continue to disagree when people put the gathering of the church as being the same event as when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and that because it would put the church through the entire wrath of God. When you tell people this, all they do is provide some existing apologetic or they make one up in order to circumvent the truth that has been provided.

The closest you can get to a direct understanding that of the church being gathered and in heaven during the time of God's wrath is through reading Rev.19:6-8 which shows the church as the bride receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb, with her following the Lord out of heaven on white horses wearing that same fine linen. Have you studied this issue?