The Rapture
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How is Mid-Trib not defendably Biblical?
This is True, i have also noticed those who take it to a personal level, are usually the ones who are wrong in their assumptions or opinions and do what only comes natural, attack. What would be unnatural is to say "wow, i never thought of it that way, i will search Scriptures and see if your right about that"
This i agree with and not agree with. i agree Pretribs, as a rule are not preoccupied with antipostrib extrabiblical attacking, but i disagee that you say they are mostly Berean based. Bereans when they hear something from someone that they do not agree with, will go to the Scriptures to see if what is being said is Scriptural or not. This i do not see Pre-Trib mostly doing at all.
Pre-Trib believe mostly as they do because that is what they were taught all their lives by their peers and elders, that Jesus was coming to get the Church before any Tribulations start.
Scriptures themselves plainly teach that it is mid-trib.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
In Mat Chapter 24 we have the Answer from Jesus concerning those questions the Disciples just asked.
Then Mat 24 describes great tribulation such as was not seen nor ever seen again.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Church is still present during these great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world or ever shall be as great as this great tribulation. Jesus is telling what the Church will go through. And because these days are so great of Tribulation that Jesus actually shortened that Tribulation period and why, for His elect that are still on the Earth.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
So the elect are not taken up yet, they are not Raptured, they are present during those great tribulation days.
Mat 24:29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
When? AFTER the Tribulation of those days which Mat 24 just got done describing is when Christ will Return.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
When does He appear in the Sky and gather up His elect? AFTER that Great Tribulation that He just described. And how people of this generation does not equate the worst great tribulation that has ever been or ever will be, is not part of the Tribulation Period is beyond me. The 7 year Tribulation Period is going to have the Great Tribulation in it. What does it say above when He returns at the sound of Trumpet sounding. So a Trumpet sounds and Jesus gathers up the elect.
1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Trumpet sounds and Jesus takes His elect that are dead rise first, His elect that living shall be Changed.
Revelation description of the 7th Trumpet is as follows:
Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer
Time is up) But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
At the sounding of the 7th Trumpet all the kingdoms of the Earth belong to Him now, because He is here to reign over all those kingdoms. He is King of all those kings.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
When are the Saints rewarded? At the 7th Trumpet sounding. When are the dead Judged to see if they rise to be with Christ or remain in the graves? At the 7th Trumpet sounding.
So then the Church is going to go through all 7 seals, the Church is going to go through all 6 trumpets being blown. The Church is going to go through Great Tribulation such as has never been before or ever shall be again. AFTER that Great Tribulation at the 7th Trumpet sounding is when the Church is Raptured up, when the dead are judged, when the Saints are changed, when Jesus starts his reign over all the kings of the Earth, when the Holy City Jerusalem comes down to the Earth with the Father inside of it. And then After all that is when the 7 vials are poured out upon the Earth to destroy all those who were left behind and were not raptured up at the 7th Trumpet, save the 144,000 children who were sealed and protected during the entire Tribulation Period.
So then Biblically speaking the Saints go through some of the Tribulation Period (7 seals, and 6 Trumpets) but not all of them, (the 7 vials) This is the TRUTH, and is what God told me, and there is not one Scripture that contradicts any of this that God has told me.
i know post trib is not correct, even as i know pre trib is not either. And as for going through some of the Tribulation Period for cleansing, that is not far from the Truth, for many will be purged by fire during that time. Many from all faiths of every religion in the world will be tested to fall away from their faiths or to stay True to their faiths.
The Pre-Trib believers will account for most of the falling away from the Christian Faith. They have went all their lives thinking that Jesus is going to Come BEFORE the tribulation Period Starts, so when it does start and it will be Terrible such as was never seen before nor ever will be seen again, and Jesus did not come as they supposed He should have, these will be the first to fall away after hearing the anti-christ words "Where is your God now?" He will convince the world to come together as a human race, putting all regions or religeous beliefs aside. There will be a great falling away from all faiths in the World. People all over the world will start condemning anyone who puts their faith in a God, any God.
When Mountains disappear, oceans are gone, the planet is out of orbit, the Earth spins faster. and God does not show up yet? Many and i say many who profess to be Christian will fall away from the Faith because Christ did not come pre-Trib as they were taught all their lives. But its not like you did not know the TRUTH, for lo, i have told you the TRUTH and told you it is from God, but you reject it, because TRUTH is not in you. Those who continue to hold on to doctrines that are contrary to the Holy Word of God, will rarely if ever come to the TRUTH.
Can not the same be said for those who hold the doctrine of pre-trib? Can you show me one verse that says the Rapture happens BEFORE any Tribulations? Absolutely nothing. Is it not True you are basing the entire pre-trib belief on an interpretation that the Church is not appointed to wrath? Which thing is TRUE, but any person who sows to the flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption, are indeed appointed to His wrath. Is it not written you will reap what you sown. So you commit adultery, you repent and are forgiven, but know you not that YOU will still suffer the consequences for your own actions? Is it not written if you do wrong you will be repaid for the wrong that you do? So even though the Church is not appointed for wrath, if an individual in that Church does that which is evil, wicked, sinful, is indeed appointed for wrath, because God is not a liar. if you sow to the flesh you WILL suffer corruption in that flesh? When? When do you suffer corruption in the flesh? it is rarely if ever immediately. those who sow to the flesh are only storying up wrath for themselves during the Great Tribulation Period, they will indeed suffer in the flesh for their sowing to the flesh which they have done their whole lives., But if they accept the punishment, and repent and endure to the end they shall be Saved. But if they curse God because He did not come and get them and they are suffering with boils, and maimed, or what have you and they fall away from God, these will be lost, because they did not endure to the end.
If you sow to the flesh, you will reap corruption of that flesh, i promise you God does not lie. You fornicating, you looking at porn, you lusting, you commiting adultery, how will you escape punishment, you will reap what you have sown. Many will suffer in the flesh when Tribulation starts, therefore remember my words to you, and realize that you deserve it for sowing to the flesh, stay strong in the Faith, endure to the end, and please get rid of the false doctrine that many false prophets are teaching behind the pulpits about pre-trib or post-trib. Jesus plainly said and taught when you see great tribulation such as never has been nor ever will be again, then start looking for Him, because He will be coming AFTER that great tribulation. This is what Scripture plainly teach, but false doctrines have blinded this generation of the TRUTH. Lo, i have told you the TRUTH.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
This is True, i have also noticed those who take it to a personal level, are usually the ones who are wrong in their assumptions or opinions and do what only comes natural, attack. What would be unnatural is to say "wow, i never thought of it that way, i will search Scriptures and see if your right about that"
This i agree with and not agree with. i agree Pretribs, as a rule are not preoccupied with antipostrib extrabiblical attacking, but i disagee that you say they are mostly Berean based. Bereans when they hear something from someone that they do not agree with, will go to the Scriptures to see if what is being said is Scriptural or not. This i do not see Pre-Trib mostly doing at all.
Pre-Trib believe mostly as they do because that is what they were taught all their lives by their peers and elders, that Jesus was coming to get the Church before any Tribulations start.
Scriptures themselves plainly teach that it is mid-trib.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
In Mat Chapter 24 we have the Answer from Jesus concerning those questions the Disciples just asked.
Then Mat 24 describes great tribulation such as was not seen nor ever seen again.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Church is still present during these great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world or ever shall be as great as this great tribulation. Jesus is telling what the Church will go through. And because these days are so great of Tribulation that Jesus actually shortened that Tribulation period and why, for His elect that are still on the Earth.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
So the elect are not taken up yet, they are not Raptured, they are present during those great tribulation days.
Mat 24:29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
When? AFTER the Tribulation of those days which Mat 24 just got done describing is when Christ will Return.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
When does He appear in the Sky and gather up His elect? AFTER that Great Tribulation that He just described. And how people of this generation does not equate the worst great tribulation that has ever been or ever will be, is not part of the Tribulation Period is beyond me. The 7 year Tribulation Period is going to have the Great Tribulation in it. What does it say above when He returns at the sound of Trumpet sounding. So a Trumpet sounds and Jesus gathers up the elect.
1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Trumpet sounds and Jesus takes His elect that are dead rise first, His elect that living shall be Changed.
Revelation description of the 7th Trumpet is as follows:
Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer
Time is up) But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
At the sounding of the 7th Trumpet all the kingdoms of the Earth belong to Him now, because He is here to reign over all those kingdoms. He is King of all those kings.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
When are the Saints rewarded? At the 7th Trumpet sounding. When are the dead Judged to see if they rise to be with Christ or remain in the graves? At the 7th Trumpet sounding.
So then the Church is going to go through all 7 seals, the Church is going to go through all 6 trumpets being blown. The Church is going to go through Great Tribulation such as has never been before or ever shall be again. AFTER that Great Tribulation at the 7th Trumpet sounding is when the Church is Raptured up, when the dead are judged, when the Saints are changed, when Jesus starts his reign over all the kings of the Earth, when the Holy City Jerusalem comes down to the Earth with the Father inside of it. And then After all that is when the 7 vials are poured out upon the Earth to destroy all those who were left behind and were not raptured up at the 7th Trumpet, save the 144,000 children who were sealed and protected during the entire Tribulation Period.
So then Biblically speaking the Saints go through some of the Tribulation Period (7 seals, and 6 Trumpets) but not all of them, (the 7 vials) This is the TRUTH, and is what God told me, and there is not one Scripture that contradicts any of this that God has told me.
i know post trib is not correct, even as i know pre trib is not either. And as for going through some of the Tribulation Period for cleansing, that is not far from the Truth, for many will be purged by fire during that time. Many from all faiths of every religion in the world will be tested to fall away from their faiths or to stay True to their faiths.
The Pre-Trib believers will account for most of the falling away from the Christian Faith. They have went all their lives thinking that Jesus is going to Come BEFORE the tribulation Period Starts, so when it does start and it will be Terrible such as was never seen before nor ever will be seen again, and Jesus did not come as they supposed He should have, these will be the first to fall away after hearing the anti-christ words "Where is your God now?" He will convince the world to come together as a human race, putting all regions or religeous beliefs aside. There will be a great falling away from all faiths in the World. People all over the world will start condemning anyone who puts their faith in a God, any God.
When Mountains disappear, oceans are gone, the planet is out of orbit, the Earth spins faster. and God does not show up yet? Many and i say many who profess to be Christian will fall away from the Faith because Christ did not come pre-Trib as they were taught all their lives. But its not like you did not know the TRUTH, for lo, i have told you the TRUTH and told you it is from God, but you reject it, because TRUTH is not in you. Those who continue to hold on to doctrines that are contrary to the Holy Word of God, will rarely if ever come to the TRUTH.
Can not the same be said for those who hold the doctrine of pre-trib? Can you show me one verse that says the Rapture happens BEFORE any Tribulations? Absolutely nothing. Is it not True you are basing the entire pre-trib belief on an interpretation that the Church is not appointed to wrath? Which thing is TRUE, but any person who sows to the flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption, are indeed appointed to His wrath. Is it not written you will reap what you sown. So you commit adultery, you repent and are forgiven, but know you not that YOU will still suffer the consequences for your own actions? Is it not written if you do wrong you will be repaid for the wrong that you do? So even though the Church is not appointed for wrath, if an individual in that Church does that which is evil, wicked, sinful, is indeed appointed for wrath, because God is not a liar. if you sow to the flesh you WILL suffer corruption in that flesh? When? When do you suffer corruption in the flesh? it is rarely if ever immediately. those who sow to the flesh are only storying up wrath for themselves during the Great Tribulation Period, they will indeed suffer in the flesh for their sowing to the flesh which they have done their whole lives., But if they accept the punishment, and repent and endure to the end they shall be Saved. But if they curse God because He did not come and get them and they are suffering with boils, and maimed, or what have you and they fall away from God, these will be lost, because they did not endure to the end.
If you sow to the flesh, you will reap corruption of that flesh, i promise you God does not lie. You fornicating, you looking at porn, you lusting, you commiting adultery, how will you escape punishment, you will reap what you have sown. Many will suffer in the flesh when Tribulation starts, therefore remember my words to you, and realize that you deserve it for sowing to the flesh, stay strong in the Faith, endure to the end, and please get rid of the false doctrine that many false prophets are teaching behind the pulpits about pre-trib or post-trib. Jesus plainly said and taught when you see great tribulation such as never has been nor ever will be again, then start looking for Him, because He will be coming AFTER that great tribulation. This is what Scripture plainly teach, but false doctrines have blinded this generation of the TRUTH. Lo, i have told you the TRUTH.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
I am personally undecided on this issue but I think there are quite a few verses that can be reasonably interpreted as applying to a pre-trib rapture event. You just quoted one yourself about us not being appointed for God's wrath. That on it's own is not enough I understand. I don't think it is necessary for The Lord to evacuate us in order to protect us and I have scriptural grounds for that.
But it's a stretch to claim there aren't ANY scriptural reasons for a pre-trib position. What you would have to do is demonstrate why certain verses are NOT indicative of a pre-trib rapture. Luke 21:36 for one example. What is Jesus meaning there?
But it's a stretch to claim there aren't ANY scriptural reasons for a pre-trib position. What you would have to do is demonstrate why certain verses are NOT indicative of a pre-trib rapture. Luke 21:36 for one example. What is Jesus meaning there?
Greetings Roadkill,
One of the on-going problems in determining when the church is gathered, is not understanding what constitutes God's wrath.
Jesus told his disciples and therefore all believers throughout the church period, that we would have trials and tribulation, which the church has been and is currently experiencing and which comes at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness. However, the tribulation that will ensue once the church is gathered will be God's tribulation, his direct, unprecedented wrath. The question then is, when does God's wrath begin? The key to understanding this is found regarding the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which make up God's wrath, as well the plagues of wrath that the two witnesses will be bringing upon the earth during the first 3 1/2 years.
Scripture states that the Lamb/Jesus, is the One who will be trampling the wine press of the wrath of God Almighty, which He will carry out via the three sets of judgments previously mentioned, for Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, which lead into the trumpets with the bowl judgments to follow.
The first four seals result in a fourth of the earths population being killed. Based on today's population of over 7 billion, that would equate to over 1.7 billion fatalities within the first 3 1/2 years and that's not counting the fatalities of the third of mankind resulting from the 6th trumpet nor trumpets 1, 2 and 3 three nor the fatalities caused by the bowl judgments.
The 1st seal, the rider on the white horse is symbolically representing the antichrist. He is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse found in Rev.19:11-21 who is the Lord Jesus.
That voice that sounds like a trumpet which says "come up here" is a prophetic allusion to the church being caught up to heaven. In support of this, though the word "church" is used 18 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3, after Rev.4:1 the word "church" no longer appears in the narrative. The next place that the church is alluded to is in Rev.19:6-8 as the bride who is receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb which is seen taking place in heaven, with the bride/church following Christ out of heaven riding on those white horses (Rev.19:14).
The gathering of the church taking place in Rev.4:1, then has the church being removed from the earth prior to the 1st seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath and which begins in Rev.6:1. The word used from then on is the word "Hagios" translated as "Saints" which is referring to the great tribulation saints who are introduced in Rev.7:7-17. These are those who will become believers in Christ after the church has been removed and are those who are referred to beginning in Rev.5:8.
The entire seven years of the seventy sets of seven years that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem, as found in Dan.9:24-27, is when God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be unleashed. The entire seven years is God's tribulation/wrath with the last 3 1/2 years referred to as the great tribulation and that because it begins the time of Jacob's trouble when the antichrist/beast causes the sacrifices and offerings that Israel will have been performing to cease and the setting up that abomination within the holy place within the temple. This in turn causes the remnant of Israel to flee out into the wilderness to a place that God will have prepared for her where she will remain during that last 3 1/2 years, as described in Matt.24:15-22 and Rev.12:6, 14.
Jesus took upon himself the wrath of God on behalf of all believers and paid the penalty for our sins by the shedding of His blood. Those who have faith in him have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God through Christ. As believers in Christ God's wrath has been satisfied completely and fully on our behalf. Therefore and according to scripture, those in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and He promised that He would keep us out of that hour of trial that is coming upon the whole earth (1 Thes.1:10, 5:9 and Rev.3:10).
As previously stated, the 1st seal rider on the white horse is the revealing of the antichrist, which takes place at the beginning of that last seven years when he establishes his agreement with Israel. And since the church is shown to be gathered prior to the 1st seal being opened in Rev.4:1, then the church must be removed prior to the revealing of the antichrist which initiates that seven years, which again is when God's wrath will be begin to be poured out.
All that said, the mid-tribulation view would put the living church through the seals and majority of the trumpet judgments, which again the church is not appointed to suffer.
One of the on-going problems in determining when the church is gathered, is not understanding what constitutes God's wrath.
Jesus told his disciples and therefore all believers throughout the church period, that we would have trials and tribulation, which the church has been and is currently experiencing and which comes at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness. However, the tribulation that will ensue once the church is gathered will be God's tribulation, his direct, unprecedented wrath. The question then is, when does God's wrath begin? The key to understanding this is found regarding the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which make up God's wrath, as well the plagues of wrath that the two witnesses will be bringing upon the earth during the first 3 1/2 years.
Scripture states that the Lamb/Jesus, is the One who will be trampling the wine press of the wrath of God Almighty, which He will carry out via the three sets of judgments previously mentioned, for Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, which lead into the trumpets with the bowl judgments to follow.
The first four seals result in a fourth of the earths population being killed. Based on today's population of over 7 billion, that would equate to over 1.7 billion fatalities within the first 3 1/2 years and that's not counting the fatalities of the third of mankind resulting from the 6th trumpet nor trumpets 1, 2 and 3 three nor the fatalities caused by the bowl judgments.
The 1st seal, the rider on the white horse is symbolically representing the antichrist. He is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse found in Rev.19:11-21 who is the Lord Jesus.
That voice that sounds like a trumpet which says "come up here" is a prophetic allusion to the church being caught up to heaven. In support of this, though the word "church" is used 18 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3, after Rev.4:1 the word "church" no longer appears in the narrative. The next place that the church is alluded to is in Rev.19:6-8 as the bride who is receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb which is seen taking place in heaven, with the bride/church following Christ out of heaven riding on those white horses (Rev.19:14).
The gathering of the church taking place in Rev.4:1, then has the church being removed from the earth prior to the 1st seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath and which begins in Rev.6:1. The word used from then on is the word "Hagios" translated as "Saints" which is referring to the great tribulation saints who are introduced in Rev.7:7-17. These are those who will become believers in Christ after the church has been removed and are those who are referred to beginning in Rev.5:8.
The entire seven years of the seventy sets of seven years that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem, as found in Dan.9:24-27, is when God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be unleashed. The entire seven years is God's tribulation/wrath with the last 3 1/2 years referred to as the great tribulation and that because it begins the time of Jacob's trouble when the antichrist/beast causes the sacrifices and offerings that Israel will have been performing to cease and the setting up that abomination within the holy place within the temple. This in turn causes the remnant of Israel to flee out into the wilderness to a place that God will have prepared for her where she will remain during that last 3 1/2 years, as described in Matt.24:15-22 and Rev.12:6, 14.
Jesus took upon himself the wrath of God on behalf of all believers and paid the penalty for our sins by the shedding of His blood. Those who have faith in him have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God through Christ. As believers in Christ God's wrath has been satisfied completely and fully on our behalf. Therefore and according to scripture, those in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and He promised that He would keep us out of that hour of trial that is coming upon the whole earth (1 Thes.1:10, 5:9 and Rev.3:10).
As previously stated, the 1st seal rider on the white horse is the revealing of the antichrist, which takes place at the beginning of that last seven years when he establishes his agreement with Israel. And since the church is shown to be gathered prior to the 1st seal being opened in Rev.4:1, then the church must be removed prior to the revealing of the antichrist which initiates that seven years, which again is when God's wrath will be begin to be poured out.
All that said, the mid-tribulation view would put the living church through the seals and majority of the trumpet judgments, which again the church is not appointed to suffer.
Did the Apostle Paul when He was setting up the Churches during his time know that there are no more prophets? Why then does Paul set Prophets in the Church? Why does Paul instruct prophets what they must do? Strange. If prophets no longer exist the Holy Ghost did not tell Paul about it. The Apostle Paul teaches that the gift of prophesy is one of the gifts of the Holy Ghost, What? You don't believe the Holy Ghost gives people the gift of prophesy?
You say This is most True. Can you show Scriptures that reveal that God stops talking to His servants the prophets? Oh, you can't. That must mean it is only your opinion that He doesn't speak to people like He has always done in the past.
Is it not written God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. But you say He talks to people in the past but not to people today is that not correct?
You judge me as not being a prophet. Now will you do the Godly thing and reveal what makes you accuse this of me? i mean if you think i am not a prophet what are the reasons that you think that? What is the basis for that assumption?
Have i said something contrary to Scriptures? No.
What then? What basis do you have, other than it is merely YOUR OPINION, that i am not a prophet?
It seems to me a Godly person as you seem to claim to be, would not accuse someone of something without giving the evidence to back up that accusation. So will you do the Godly thing and reveal to everyone the basis for your accusation that i am not a prophet?
Does Scriptures teach that, or is that likewise YOUR opinion.
i was i think around 16. Went to school, had a full time job. One night around midnight or so i was driving home, tired and had to go to school the next day. i heard a voice saying "David" it scared me to death. i looked into the back seat to see who had gotten into my car. Nobody was there. Then i realized it was the Lord calling upon me again. i replied "Yes Lord" He then told me, the next road turn left. i said OK. The next road i seen turning left was gravel road. So i turned left. After about 20 minutes of driving on this gravel road, away from home mind you, totally lost, i started to doubt what i actually heard. i convinced myself i was just tired and hearing things. i remember thinking the next driveway i see i am turning around. Then i seen a girl sitting on the edge of a bridge, it looked like she was crying when she looked at me when i drove by. i pulled over and walked over to see if she was OK, she was crying, mascara all over her face. i sat down beside her and asked her what was wrong, she did not answer but kept on sobbing. i then made some kind of comment about God and that everything was going to be alright and it can't be as bad as she thinks it is, This is when she got really upset with me, saying Don't talk to me about God He allowed this to happen to me. Come to find out she was raped by her boyfriend and several other guys, and dropped off the side of the road like trash. She was contemplating killing herself, and did not want to talk about God. If i could not talk to her about God i had no clue as to what to say. Then the voice said to me "Tell her to join the military" i then told her. "You know what you need to do, you need to join the military" She thought that was the dumbest thing she had ever heard and made it clear to tell me that i was dumb too. She asked me to leave several times, i told her that i would not leave unless i was dropping her off someplace, we sat there for what seem to me like an eternity hearing her sob. Finally she said "Fine" and gets up and heads for the car. She got me more lost than i already was, turn here, turn there. and it was dark. So i dropped her off and watched her go in the house. Then i left, lost for a long time. Any ways, i could not find her again to check on her to save my life. So go into the future a year or two. And one day when i was in the Air Force at my job i get a call. i answered and it was that girl. She was thanking me for her life, she said she was looking for me for a very long time, all she had to go on was a red dodge charger, Anyways, apparently she went and joined the military the very next day, and now she is married to a Christian man who loves her dearly, has a child with him, and one on the way, she said she owed me her life, and that she wanted to thank me. i told her " You should thank God and not me" i told her that God told me to tell her to join the military, that it was not from me, but from God. She then told me she thanks God daily on her knees for the new life that God gave her.
This same voice, i have had conversations with my whole teenage life, up to 1994 when i ran from Him, and have not heard from Him since. crying now, ill be back. Sorry, every time i even think about that, Niagara falls. Not one word from Him since 1994. Anyways. He told me many things concerning what is to come in the future. i would have a whole bunch of questions ready to ask Him when He would come and talk with me again, and He answered every one of them, they were answered in such a way that it seemed He already knew all the questions i was going to ask Him before i even asked Him. It was great. Any question i had concerning the end times, He told me the answer.
So what is it to me, if you don't believe God speaks to people any more, i know that He does, and still does, just not to me any more, crying again hold on. i have many more questions for Him if He chooses to speak with me again.
God told me what is going to happen in the Future. He told me i don't have to convince anyone of the TRUTH, only present it to them. So what is it to me if you don't believe our Father speaks to people any more?
If you do not want to hear what God has told me, then i suggest putting me on ignore, because that is all your going to hear from me, what He told me. Save very rarely i will give my opinion on something.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
You say This is most True. Can you show Scriptures that reveal that God stops talking to His servants the prophets? Oh, you can't. That must mean it is only your opinion that He doesn't speak to people like He has always done in the past.
Is it not written God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. But you say He talks to people in the past but not to people today is that not correct?
You judge me as not being a prophet. Now will you do the Godly thing and reveal what makes you accuse this of me? i mean if you think i am not a prophet what are the reasons that you think that? What is the basis for that assumption?
Have i said something contrary to Scriptures? No.
What then? What basis do you have, other than it is merely YOUR OPINION, that i am not a prophet?
It seems to me a Godly person as you seem to claim to be, would not accuse someone of something without giving the evidence to back up that accusation. So will you do the Godly thing and reveal to everyone the basis for your accusation that i am not a prophet?
Does Scriptures teach that, or is that likewise YOUR opinion.
i was i think around 16. Went to school, had a full time job. One night around midnight or so i was driving home, tired and had to go to school the next day. i heard a voice saying "David" it scared me to death. i looked into the back seat to see who had gotten into my car. Nobody was there. Then i realized it was the Lord calling upon me again. i replied "Yes Lord" He then told me, the next road turn left. i said OK. The next road i seen turning left was gravel road. So i turned left. After about 20 minutes of driving on this gravel road, away from home mind you, totally lost, i started to doubt what i actually heard. i convinced myself i was just tired and hearing things. i remember thinking the next driveway i see i am turning around. Then i seen a girl sitting on the edge of a bridge, it looked like she was crying when she looked at me when i drove by. i pulled over and walked over to see if she was OK, she was crying, mascara all over her face. i sat down beside her and asked her what was wrong, she did not answer but kept on sobbing. i then made some kind of comment about God and that everything was going to be alright and it can't be as bad as she thinks it is, This is when she got really upset with me, saying Don't talk to me about God He allowed this to happen to me. Come to find out she was raped by her boyfriend and several other guys, and dropped off the side of the road like trash. She was contemplating killing herself, and did not want to talk about God. If i could not talk to her about God i had no clue as to what to say. Then the voice said to me "Tell her to join the military" i then told her. "You know what you need to do, you need to join the military" She thought that was the dumbest thing she had ever heard and made it clear to tell me that i was dumb too. She asked me to leave several times, i told her that i would not leave unless i was dropping her off someplace, we sat there for what seem to me like an eternity hearing her sob. Finally she said "Fine" and gets up and heads for the car. She got me more lost than i already was, turn here, turn there. and it was dark. So i dropped her off and watched her go in the house. Then i left, lost for a long time. Any ways, i could not find her again to check on her to save my life. So go into the future a year or two. And one day when i was in the Air Force at my job i get a call. i answered and it was that girl. She was thanking me for her life, she said she was looking for me for a very long time, all she had to go on was a red dodge charger, Anyways, apparently she went and joined the military the very next day, and now she is married to a Christian man who loves her dearly, has a child with him, and one on the way, she said she owed me her life, and that she wanted to thank me. i told her " You should thank God and not me" i told her that God told me to tell her to join the military, that it was not from me, but from God. She then told me she thanks God daily on her knees for the new life that God gave her.
This same voice, i have had conversations with my whole teenage life, up to 1994 when i ran from Him, and have not heard from Him since. crying now, ill be back. Sorry, every time i even think about that, Niagara falls. Not one word from Him since 1994. Anyways. He told me many things concerning what is to come in the future. i would have a whole bunch of questions ready to ask Him when He would come and talk with me again, and He answered every one of them, they were answered in such a way that it seemed He already knew all the questions i was going to ask Him before i even asked Him. It was great. Any question i had concerning the end times, He told me the answer.
So what is it to me, if you don't believe God speaks to people any more, i know that He does, and still does, just not to me any more, crying again hold on. i have many more questions for Him if He chooses to speak with me again.
God told me what is going to happen in the Future. He told me i don't have to convince anyone of the TRUTH, only present it to them. So what is it to me if you don't believe our Father speaks to people any more?
If you do not want to hear what God has told me, then i suggest putting me on ignore, because that is all your going to hear from me, what He told me. Save very rarely i will give my opinion on something.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
Hello Lucy,
The gathering of the church is based on understanding what constitutes God's wrath and where it begins. That said, there is no one verse of scripture that says "here it is. This is where the church is gathered!" The gathering of the church is determined, as much of the chronology of end-time events is, via the cross-referencing and comparing of scripture. I would also respond to what DiscipleDave said in that, there is also no verse of scripture that says the gathering of the church happens in the middle of the seven years or at the end.
Jesus told his disciples and therefore all believers, that we would suffer trials and tribulations, which has been taking place since the on-set of the church until this very day. Once the church has been gathered, God's tribulation/wrath will be in operation during that last seven years. During this time God will be dealing with a Christ rejecting world and specifically with Israel during that last 3 1/2 referred to as the great tribulation, God's tribulation.
Regarding this controversy regarding the timing of the gathering of the church in relation to God's wrath, is that expositors in their apologetics will redefine, dilute and or relocate God's wrath in order to fit their belief.
The church will be gathered prior to that 1st seal being opened, with Jesus as the One opening it, as well the rest of the seals, followed by the trumpets and bowl judgments. He therefore will be responsible for the resulting fatalities, which will be the fulfillment of Him as being the One who tramples the wine press of the wrath of God Almighty, i.e. He is the One who will be carrying out God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
The Lord made a promise that he was going to prepare places for us in the Father's house (John 14:1-3) and that he is coming back to get us. Logically speaking, I'm pretty sure that He will be coming to get us prior to His wrath and not after. By the time the Lord does return to the earth to end the age, the majority of the population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled in preparation for the Lord's millennial kingdom.
And by the way, we, the church who will have previously been gathered, will be those who are seen following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses, as seen in Rev.19:14.
And therein lies the problem, men's interpretations
Remember that when i answer your reference to Luke 21:36
i never said there were no Scriptural Reasons for a pre-trib position. There would Scriptural reasons for a pre -trib as well as a post -trib position. There might even be Scriptural reasons not to have a Rapture at all. i am not talking about reasons, but what is and what is not. There are no Scriptures that teach the Rapture happens BEFORE any Tribulations, This statement is TRUE. There are no Scriptures that teach the Rapture happens AFTER all the Tribulations, This statement is likewise TRUE. Mid-Trib is the only position that does not contradict one solitary verse in all of Scriptures. Namely we will go through some of the Tribulations but not all of it.
i don't have to do anything but reveal what God has told me, this He has already told me. So i do not have to demonstrate why certain verses do this or don't do that. i have told you the Truth, it is your choice what you decide to do with it.
Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
This in no way whatsoever teaches pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib. But teaching us to be ready alway for His Return, to Watch, to Pray always. Know you not just because the Church will go through some Tribulations does not mean all will suffer Tribulations, some who are going through Tribulations will escape the pains and sorrow that is accompanied with Tribulations. Yes you know this you say as much when you said So then some, even though they are here during the Tribulation Period will escape the effects of the Tribulation Period via protection from God during the Tribulation Period, pray for that always. These are they that are not appointed to wrath. But any person (Christian or not) that sows to the flesh IS appointed for His wrath. And will not escape it. For God does not lie, those who sow to the flesh of the flesh shall reap corruption. NOT might reap corruption, but WILL reap corruption, it is not a matter of if it will happen, it is a matter of when it will happen, MOST are storing up wrath for themselves for the great Tribulation Period.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
Remember that when i answer your reference to Luke 21:36
i never said there were no Scriptural Reasons for a pre-trib position. There would Scriptural reasons for a pre -trib as well as a post -trib position. There might even be Scriptural reasons not to have a Rapture at all. i am not talking about reasons, but what is and what is not. There are no Scriptures that teach the Rapture happens BEFORE any Tribulations, This statement is TRUE. There are no Scriptures that teach the Rapture happens AFTER all the Tribulations, This statement is likewise TRUE. Mid-Trib is the only position that does not contradict one solitary verse in all of Scriptures. Namely we will go through some of the Tribulations but not all of it.
i don't have to do anything but reveal what God has told me, this He has already told me. So i do not have to demonstrate why certain verses do this or don't do that. i have told you the Truth, it is your choice what you decide to do with it.
Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
This in no way whatsoever teaches pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib. But teaching us to be ready alway for His Return, to Watch, to Pray always. Know you not just because the Church will go through some Tribulations does not mean all will suffer Tribulations, some who are going through Tribulations will escape the pains and sorrow that is accompanied with Tribulations. Yes you know this you say as much when you said So then some, even though they are here during the Tribulation Period will escape the effects of the Tribulation Period via protection from God during the Tribulation Period, pray for that always. These are they that are not appointed to wrath. But any person (Christian or not) that sows to the flesh IS appointed for His wrath. And will not escape it. For God does not lie, those who sow to the flesh of the flesh shall reap corruption. NOT might reap corruption, but WILL reap corruption, it is not a matter of if it will happen, it is a matter of when it will happen, MOST are storing up wrath for themselves for the great Tribulation Period.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
If what i say will come to pass does not come to pass then i am a false prophet. If what i teach is contrary to Scriptures than i am a false prophet. i don't need proof that i am as He made me. i know that i am.
lol. seriously, just because YOU say that does not agree with Scriptures does not make it so. If i teach something that is contrary to Scriptures then point that out. If i say Mid-Trib is when God returns to the earth and Raptures the Church, then by all means reveal the Scriptures that you think is contrary? Or is the TRUTH that YOU think mid-trib is contrary to Scriptures, therefore YOU think it is contrary? What i teach is NOT contrary to Scriptures, For sure contrary to the interpretations of men. Contrary to men's opinions, Contrary to men's false doctrines.
You teach Who told you that? God? Men? or Yourself?
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
lol. seriously, just because YOU say that does not agree with Scriptures does not make it so. If i teach something that is contrary to Scriptures then point that out. If i say Mid-Trib is when God returns to the earth and Raptures the Church, then by all means reveal the Scriptures that you think is contrary? Or is the TRUTH that YOU think mid-trib is contrary to Scriptures, therefore YOU think it is contrary? What i teach is NOT contrary to Scriptures, For sure contrary to the interpretations of men. Contrary to men's opinions, Contrary to men's false doctrines.
You teach Who told you that? God? Men? or Yourself?
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
Question for you sir. 1st John chapter 4 verses 1-3, why is this here in the Bible? If you get a chance to present this to an Angel of God and he passes is what he tells you valid? If what he tells you does not contradict the Bible but is not in the Bible what do you do with the information he has told you? I have had such opportunity and I have info on Revelation chapter 12 and the rapture but can get very few people to receive it because of their faith. Simply put, If it's not specifically in the Bible they don't want to hear it. But the news I have is simply Marvelouse!
H
According to d dave,he is infallable.
He will tell you,"believe me or not,"
Most here just go with what they interpret from the word.
The word becomes the center of the debate.
Anyone that says "God said,told me showed me",stops any question that they are unbiblical.
,,,at least in their mind it does.
He will tell you,"believe me or not,"
Most here just go with what they interpret from the word.
The word becomes the center of the debate.
Anyone that says "God said,told me showed me",stops any question that they are unbiblical.
,,,at least in their mind it does.
H
Wow,none of this is true.
pretrib is defendable BECAUSE OF SCRIPTURE.
There is no mid trib rapture.
The AC is revealed at the beginning of the tribulation period.
He rounds up and executes all refusing the mark. That happens at the start of the GT.
So there is nobody mid trib to rapture.
You miss something fundamental.
Harvest is 4 parts.. in leviticus,and elsewhere.
Firstfruits.
Main
corneres
gleaners.
We see this in the gatherings to heaven.
Firstfruits = Jesus and the patriarchs
main= 1 thes 4
Corners and gleaners = rev 14.
Those are the gatherings to heaven,for the marriage supper.
Ruth is the gentile bride.
Read Ruth,get that dynamic down,as well as the AC killing all left behind Christians in the GT.
Then get back to me.