The Rapture
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Hi Blake,
Sorry for late reply. Was on travel then had lot of work waiting for me when I got home. Such is life.
So, your premise is that John didn't taste death because he was taken to heaven and saw the Lord return in the future? That's a very clever work around. I have to hand it to you on that one. You are warm in that it was indeed John who did not taste death before Christ returned in his kingdom as John was the only one of the 12 left alive by 70 AD. But there is a major problem with your view...
I am fine using the KJV but the NKJV meaning is the same. Let's look at the passage again and a few related passages. I'll defer to the KJV if that helps.
Mat 16: [SUP]28 [/SUP]Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
John 21: [SUP]22 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
Mark 13: [SUP]26 [/SUP]And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory... [SUP]30 [/SUP]Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
The event in question is Christ returning in His Kingdom, right? If John witnessed this event from heaven, he would be seeing Christ leaving, not returning.
Sorry for late reply. Was on travel then had lot of work waiting for me when I got home. Such is life.
So, your premise is that John didn't taste death because he was taken to heaven and saw the Lord return in the future? That's a very clever work around. I have to hand it to you on that one. You are warm in that it was indeed John who did not taste death before Christ returned in his kingdom as John was the only one of the 12 left alive by 70 AD. But there is a major problem with your view...
I am fine using the KJV but the NKJV meaning is the same. Let's look at the passage again and a few related passages. I'll defer to the KJV if that helps.
Mat 16: [SUP]28 [/SUP]Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
John 21: [SUP]22 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
Mark 13: [SUP]26 [/SUP]And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory... [SUP]30 [/SUP]Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
The event in question is Christ returning in His Kingdom, right? If John witnessed this event from heaven, he would be seeing Christ leaving, not returning.
Are you a physicist? I'm a former nuclear engineer so I've studied a little science in my day. Do you understand what time is and that it had a beginning? Since it had a beginning, it was created because the only thing/entity that did not have a beginning was God. Since God created the universe, God created time. Without the universe, there would be no time.
Einstein's General Theory of Relativity demonstrates that time is linked, or related, to matter and space, and thus the dimensions of time, space, and matter constitute what we call the time-space continuum (Google it). They must come into being at precisely the same instant. Time itself cannot exist in the absence of matter and space. From this, we can infer that the uncaused first cause (God, the Creator) must exist outside of the four dimensions of space and time, and possess eternal, personal, and intelligent qualities in order to possess the capabilities of intentionally space, matter -- and indeed even time itself -- into being.
Moreover, the very physical nature of time and space also suggest a Creator, for infinity and eternity must necessarily exist from a logical perspective. The existence of time implies eternity (as time has a beginning and an end), and the existence of space implies infinity. The very concepts of infinity and eternity infer a Creator because they find their very state of being in God, who transcends both and simply is.
Taken together, space, consisting of three dimensions (up-down, left-right, and forward-backward) and time are all part of what's called the space-time continuum. It's important to understand Einstein's work on the space-time continuum and how it relates to traveling through space.
Einstein realized that space and time are relative -- an object in motion actually experiences time at a slower rate than one at rest. Although this may seem absurd to us, we travel incredibly slow when compared to the speed of light, so we don't notice the hands on our watches ticking slower when we're running or traveling on an airplane. Scientists have actually proved this phenomenon by sending atomic clocks up with high-speed rocket ships. They returned to Earth slightly behind the clocks on the ground.
The closer an object gets to the speed of light, that object actually experiences time at a significantly slower rate. If we could travel safely close to the speed of light to the center of our galaxy from Earth, it would take 25,000 years of Earth time for those on Earth. But for us traveling, however, the trip would probably only take 10 years.
Now who created "light?"
Gen 1: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
I rest my case.
Einstein's General Theory of Relativity demonstrates that time is linked, or related, to matter and space, and thus the dimensions of time, space, and matter constitute what we call the time-space continuum (Google it). They must come into being at precisely the same instant. Time itself cannot exist in the absence of matter and space. From this, we can infer that the uncaused first cause (God, the Creator) must exist outside of the four dimensions of space and time, and possess eternal, personal, and intelligent qualities in order to possess the capabilities of intentionally space, matter -- and indeed even time itself -- into being.
Moreover, the very physical nature of time and space also suggest a Creator, for infinity and eternity must necessarily exist from a logical perspective. The existence of time implies eternity (as time has a beginning and an end), and the existence of space implies infinity. The very concepts of infinity and eternity infer a Creator because they find their very state of being in God, who transcends both and simply is.
Taken together, space, consisting of three dimensions (up-down, left-right, and forward-backward) and time are all part of what's called the space-time continuum. It's important to understand Einstein's work on the space-time continuum and how it relates to traveling through space.
Einstein realized that space and time are relative -- an object in motion actually experiences time at a slower rate than one at rest. Although this may seem absurd to us, we travel incredibly slow when compared to the speed of light, so we don't notice the hands on our watches ticking slower when we're running or traveling on an airplane. Scientists have actually proved this phenomenon by sending atomic clocks up with high-speed rocket ships. They returned to Earth slightly behind the clocks on the ground.
The closer an object gets to the speed of light, that object actually experiences time at a significantly slower rate. If we could travel safely close to the speed of light to the center of our galaxy from Earth, it would take 25,000 years of Earth time for those on Earth. But for us traveling, however, the trip would probably only take 10 years.
Now who created "light?"
Gen 1: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
I rest my case.
serpentdove you keep saying things with authority but i can't believe this................ im pretty sure open theism would be considered heresy by all church fathers no??????????????? how do you know if your trinity is gonna be there tomorrow???????????? what if your Jesus rebels of his free will and breaks down the trinity??????????? i urge you to reconsider these things..............
amen its even better!!!!!!!!!!!! don´t focus on flesh and blood but on things above and spiritual matters they are much greater currently the land of israel is in drought of water and in constant danger and it's not that good it's a desert land the middle-east not great at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but the heavenly jerusalem is glorious!!!!!!!!!!
Wow, have you been following me around, I used to believe in it, and was even seeking to speak in tongues. Kenneth Copeland woke me up to the reality of how phony that movement was. When I could see him for what he was, I could see Satan in his eyes, and he spoke in that so-called phony tongues very frequently.
My Sister-inlaws want argue with me, every time I was around them, even at the dinner table. AND, they were addicted to watching Benny Hinn, the other side of that same counterfeit coin, Copeland was on.
My Sister-inlaws want argue with me, every time I was around them, even at the dinner table. AND, they were addicted to watching Benny Hinn, the other side of that same counterfeit coin, Copeland was on.
Some of the replies in this thread.....wow...should be renamed Fantasy Land of Delusional Dreams of Grandeur .........
O.T. Saints are not in Christ....one of the most ignorant statements I have seen in a while...... cake taking statement
The devil does not tempt saints.....Tell that to JESUS in the wilderness.......cake taking statement
O.T. Saints are not in Christ....one of the most ignorant statements I have seen in a while...... cake taking statement
The devil does not tempt saints.....Tell that to JESUS in the wilderness.......cake taking statement
CHAPTER AND VERSE PLEASE.
Zechariah 14:3-9 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations as He fights on a day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You will flee by My mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] On that day there will be no light; the sunlight and moonlight will diminish.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] It will be a day known ⌊only⌋ to Yahweh, without day or night, but there will be light at evening.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea, in summer and winter alike.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] On that day Yahweh will become King over all the earth—
Yahweh alone, and His name alone.
Zechariah 14:3-9 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations as He fights on a day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You will flee by My mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] On that day there will be no light; the sunlight and moonlight will diminish.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] It will be a day known ⌊only⌋ to Yahweh, without day or night, but there will be light at evening.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea, in summer and winter alike.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] On that day Yahweh will become King over all the earth—
Yahweh alone, and His name alone.
Please lets just stay with one or the other... It is like circular reasoning some people use.... including you.
Mark 13:1-2 tells us of the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem.
Mark 13:3-4 tells us that His disciples ask two important questions of Jesus..."4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?"
The first question was NOT answered.(here)... but the second Question was answered in the rest of Mark 13.
Mark 13:5-8 warns us as he did in every Gospel,"Take heed that no one deceives you". He then tells of the world conditions up until the 2 advent.
Mark 13:9-13..Jesus describes what Israel will have to endure between the time he Ascends to heaven and the 2nd advent.
Mark 13:14...a warning of the Abomination of Desolate (meaning the Abomination that brings Desolate) as spoken by Daniel...Before I go on, the AoD spoken of by Daniel 11:31 is of the AoD that will happen in 167 BC by Antiochus Epiphanies.
But at the same time he is referring to a future AoD by Daniel 9:27, stating in Mark 13:14 :"....... standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,)" This is where the Antichrist will stand in the Holy of Holies (a temple will have to be there for this to happen and since 70 AD, the temple has been destroyed, a new one will have to be rebuilt.)
Now PW, in Mat 24: 15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
"
One more point,,,,, Matthew and Mark are close to the same..No, he did not answer his disciples about the time here either.
However in Luke 21:8-23 tells them what they want to know.
No PW if you want to debate the scripture, great. WHat is next Matthew 24 or many be John 21 or maybe both.....he result will be the same.... No Abomination of Desolate" happened during the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.
WHat say YOU?
Mark 13:1-2 tells us of the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem.
Mark 13:3-4 tells us that His disciples ask two important questions of Jesus..."4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?"
The first question was NOT answered.(here)... but the second Question was answered in the rest of Mark 13.
Mark 13:5-8 warns us as he did in every Gospel,"Take heed that no one deceives you". He then tells of the world conditions up until the 2 advent.
Mark 13:9-13..Jesus describes what Israel will have to endure between the time he Ascends to heaven and the 2nd advent.
Mark 13:14...a warning of the Abomination of Desolate (meaning the Abomination that brings Desolate) as spoken by Daniel...Before I go on, the AoD spoken of by Daniel 11:31 is of the AoD that will happen in 167 BC by Antiochus Epiphanies.
But at the same time he is referring to a future AoD by Daniel 9:27, stating in Mark 13:14 :"....... standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,)" This is where the Antichrist will stand in the Holy of Holies (a temple will have to be there for this to happen and since 70 AD, the temple has been destroyed, a new one will have to be rebuilt.)
Now PW, in Mat 24: 15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
"One more point,,,,, Matthew and Mark are close to the same..No, he did not answer his disciples about the time here either.
However in Luke 21:8-23 tells them what they want to know.
No PW if you want to debate the scripture, great. WHat is next Matthew 24 or many be John 21 or maybe both.....he result will be the same.... No Abomination of Desolate" happened during the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.
WHat say YOU?
P
No,movements of God are not judged by individuals.
Under your template all I need is one example,and that example need not even be true,to blackball any religion.
When Jesus was also called satanic,he pulled the Elijah card. He settled the matter.
He cast out demons by the power of God. (told them Satan can not cast out Satan)
He then went nuclear and invoked the unpardonable sin.
If Copeland casts out Satan,you are doing what the Pharisees did. Ascribe the power of God to Satan. The unpardonable sin.
Guess what? Copeland casts out devils.
Under your template all I need is one example,and that example need not even be true,to blackball any religion.
When Jesus was also called satanic,he pulled the Elijah card. He settled the matter.
He cast out demons by the power of God. (told them Satan can not cast out Satan)
He then went nuclear and invoked the unpardonable sin.
If Copeland casts out Satan,you are doing what the Pharisees did. Ascribe the power of God to Satan. The unpardonable sin.
Guess what? Copeland casts out devils.