The Rapture

[Endoscopy]

A-F,

Christ spent considerable time warning the wicked religious leaders of His day about what was to come to them if they did not repent and change their ways. Of course the first warning comes from John the Baptist in Mt 3:

Mt 3:

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? [SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance​

.

Jesus uses the same words to describe these wicked men here and tells them exactly what was to come of them:

Mt 23:

Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? [SUP]34 [/SUP]Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,​

[SUP]35 [/SUP]that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.​

We don't have to wonder who these prophets were that Jesus was going to send out, because indeed they were sent out into every town in Israel. They were told at this time to stay in Israel:

Mat 10: ​

These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.​

“Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And when you go into a household, greet it. [SUP]13 [/SUP]If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!​

Every wicked city that did not receive them was destroyed in the war with Rome.

Looking closely again above at the passage from Mat 23, let's turn to Rev 18. The judgment has come to Jerusalem (Babylon) and we see identical language used.

Rev 18:

​

For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”​

Do you now see that it was Jerusalem, not the RCC, that was the Harlot and she was slain in 70 AD? She was responsible for the blood of the prophets just as Jesus declared in Mat 23.

Mr. 70AD is ranting about it again. Is this just in the spirit world as well!!!

 

[abcdef]

99% Agreed!! Glad you are finally seeing the presence of Christ upon the destr of Jer.

Brother PW,

I always have agreed with that.

The only part you are missing is the resurrection of the just. Three times in John 6, Jesus said he would raise them on the last day. He told Martha the same thing in John 11. It was to be the last day of Israel, not the planet. Christ's presence returned to judge the wicked and reward the saints and to usher in the new Your point about the Luke and Mark accounts I was actually going to make too, but brother End, is on baby step 1. He cannot handle anything we are telling him yet. The Luke account is perhaps the clearest because he makes clear it is when Jerusalem is surrounded by its enemies that all should flee Judea (not the planet, LOL)

Messianic Age, which of course we are still in. The resurrection is found in Mat 24:31, the gathering of the Elect from the four winds.

Except that the dest of Jerusalem was not the last day.

The gathering is the at the end of the ToG's to restore Jerusalem.

All of this (EVERY BIT OF IT) was fulfilled in the first century.

The ToG's began in 70 ad, but did not end there.

All one has to do is ask, "What change did the Cross make?" This seems like a simple question and answer, but too many don't consider the practical implications. Since the Fall and before the Cross, the dead went to Hades, the spiritual underworld, separated from God. Because in Adam all men died, but in Christ man could again be made alive. This restoration was a first century event, it isn't anything we need to wait for.

Yes, sort of, but the time that we truly bear His image completely comes after this life is over. We bear His spiritual image right now through the indwelling of the HS, but the image cannot be completed until after our death.

They are 2 separate concepts that have been melded together to satisfy the completely false teaching that everything ended in 70 ad.

When we bear His image in the after life, it will be with Him on His throne in His glory. We are not there at this time.

We die, we immediately go to heaven. All are appointed to die.

Except those who alive and look for Him when He comes at the coming of salvation Heb 9:27-28. Not 70 ad.

. He also states that after these things to look up, because their (the saved) redemption draws near.

No, Jesus says that the redemption happens "...when these things begin to come to pass,..." Lk 21:28.

The redemption is the day of Pentecost, when salvation came.

This notion that a future generation will get to skip death and go straight to heaven by the 10s of millions is absolute lunacy.

I don't think so. You believe that it has happened before. Why would you believe that it cannot happen again?

Is it lunacy to believe that it has already happened? Or lunacy that it can happen again?

What would make that generation so special compared to all the generations of believers who went before them?

The difference is that this time, Israel will be ended as a unique genetic race.

Israel is restored to Jerusalem right now. When Jerusalem falls this time, it will mean that it is the end of the natural branches. That is, if the planet were allowed to continue, the the genetic race of Israel will be absorbed into the gentile nations and cease to be. That is why Jesus comes for the kingdom at the 7th/last trumpet, because the 2 Witnesses are dead, they are the people of Israel. They are killed by the kings of the east (Iran), and the rest of the gentile nations Magog (Russia, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt, etc.). They are surrounded right now.

Maybe some think that the USA will be the friend of Israel to the end, but maybe not. Maybe soon, others will run the USA. Those who do not like Israel. Then who will defend Israel? All this trouble stirring and antagonizing, throwing gas on the flames of hate. All this will end with the armies of Iran standing in Jerusalem.

The army of 200 mill is coming, assembling, gaining strength. Maybe only a few more years are left, maybe more, maybe less.

 

[abcdef]

Another thing that screams of first century fulfillment is this big clue Jesus gave:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]

For then there will be great tribulation (affliction, distress, and oppression) such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now—no, and never will be [again].​

We have an independent collaboration of this from Joe as he describes the conditions inside of Jerusalem during its great tribulation. Give this a read Brother A-F. BTW, this ties to the 3rd seal. Horrible conditions:

3. Now of those that perished by famine in the city, the number was prodigious, and the miseries they underwent were unspeakable; for if so much as the shadow of any kind of food did any where appear, a war was commenced presently, and the dearest friends fell a fighting one with another about it, snatching from each other the most miserable supports of life. Nor would men believe that those who were dying had no food, but the robbers would search them when they were expiring, lest any one should have concealed food in their bosoms, and counterfeited dying; nay, these robbers gaped for want, and ran about stumbling and staggering along like mad dogs, and reeling against the doors of the houses like drunken men; they would also, in the great distress they were in, rush into the very same houses two or three times in one and the same day. Moreover, their hunger was so intolerable, that it obliged them to chew every thing, while they gathered such things as the most sordid animals would not touch, and endured to eat them; nor did they at length abstain from girdles and shoes; and the very leather which belonged to their shields they pulled off and gnawed: the very wisps of old hay became food to some; and some gathered up fibres, and sold a very small weight of them for four Attic [drachmae]. But why do I describe the shameless impudence that the famine brought on men in their eating inanimate things, while I am going to relate a matter of fact, the like to which no history relates, either among the Greeks or Barbarians? It is horrible to speak of it, and incredible when heard. I had indeed willingly omitted this calamity of ours, that I might not seem to deliver what is so portentous to posterity, but that I have innumerable witnesses to it in my own age; and besides, my country would have had little reason to thank me for suppressing the miseries that she underwent at this time.​

Brother,

The ToG's started in 70 ad and ended in 1967 when Jerusalem was restored. That was the great tribulation. 70 ad was only the beginning.

 

[abcdef]

A-F,

Christ spent considerable time warning the wicked religious leaders of His day about what was to come to them if they did not repent and change their ways. Of course the first warning comes from John the Baptist in Mt 3:

Mt 3:

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? [SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance​

.

Jesus uses the same words to describe these wicked men here and tells them exactly what was to come of them:

Mt 23:

Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? [SUP]34 [/SUP]Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,​

[SUP]35 [/SUP]that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.​

We don't have to wonder who these prophets were that Jesus was going to send out, because indeed they were sent out into every town in Israel. They were told at this time to stay in Israel:

Mat 10: ​

These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.​

“Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And when you go into a household, greet it. [SUP]13 [/SUP]If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!​

Every wicked city that did not receive them was destroyed in the war with Rome.

Looking closely again above at the passage from Mat 23, let's turn to Rev 18. The judgment has come to Jerusalem (Babylon) and we see identical language used.

Rev 18:

​

For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”​

I agree.

Do you now see that it was Jerusalem, not the RCC, that was the Harlot and she was slain in 70 AD? She was responsible for the blood of the prophets just as Jesus declared in Mat 23.

The woman in Rev 17 is Israel, but the city that she sits on is still Rome. Rev 17 is showing the situation after 70 ad., when Israel was taken to Rome. Rome is Babylon, the unbelieving natural branches are the woman wearing the name of Rome. In league with Rome against the 7 congregations in Asia.

Both are in the wilderness after 70 ad.

The references to the blood of the prophets is showing that even after Jerusalem falls and the people are taken away, that the unbelieving branches cannot escape God's judgments.

The references to Jerusalem are confirming the fulfillment of prophecy that already happened in 70 ad.

 

[Endoscopy]

I agree.




The woman in Rev 17 is Israel, but the city that she sits on is still Rome. Rev 17 is showing the situation after 70 ad., when Israel was taken to Rome. Rome is Babylon, the unbelieving natural branches are the woman wearing the name of Rome. In league with Rome against the 7 congregations in Asia.

Both are in the wilderness after 70 ad.

The references to the blood of the prophets is showing that even after Jerusalem falls and the people are taken away, that the unbelieving branches cannot escape God's judgments.

The references to Jerusalem are confirming the fulfillment of prophecy that already happened in 70 ad.

I went through Revelation 6 through 11 and noted prediction concerning events prior to the return of Jesus and found the following. These are the tribulation period events. Absolutely not spirit world events since one of them predicts 1/3 mankind killed. The seals and trumpets herald in plagues and other disasters coming to chastise those who reject God and Jesus.

Revelation Prophecies

Revelation 6
7 seals

Revelation 8
7th seal
7 trumpets

Revelation 9
Last 3 trumpets
First, second, and third woes are the last 3 trumpets
1/3 mankind killed

Revelation 10
7 thunders not recorded
Little book eaten
Commanded to make new proohecies

Revelation 11
Sanctuary and alter of God measured and people counted
Court outside and city of Jerusalem to be trampled by Gentiles for 42 months
Power of prophecy given to 2 witnesses for 42 months
Those attempting to injure or harm them will be killed
They have the power to stop rain during their days of prophecy
They have the power to turn waters into blood
They have the power to scourge the earth with various plagues
When they have finished their testimony the beast will rise up and kill them
Their bodys will lay in the streets for 3 1/2 days they will lay in the streets of the great city for all to see
Then God raises them from the dead causing great fear in people and calls them up to heaven
At that point a great earthquake destroys 1/10 of the city killing 7,000 people - second woe
Those who remained were filled with awe and dread and glorified God
Jesus returns to reign on earth
The heathen rage but Jesus prevails and judgement comes for all

 

[PlainWord]

Mr. 70AD is ranting about it again. Is this just in the spirit world as well!!!

All of this happened in the physical world.

 

[Endoscopy]

All of this happened in the physical world.

When were 1/3 of people killed worldwide. Don't even try to make it only a city or region. The prophecy states mankind not Jerusalem or Israel.

 

[Endoscopy]

The 5 minute rule messed me up again trying to fix errors created by the site and trying to add to the post.
Plainword adheres to the full pretorist concept that everything happens in the spirit world.

I posted a sequence of events in Revelation 6 to 11. Too many items are plainly happening in the real world. 1/3 mankind killed. Earthquakes. 2 witnesses with the power to stop rain and cause other natural events of destruction, impossible to be killed slaying those who try. Then they are allowed to be killed and lay in the street for 3 1/2 days for the whole world to see before being raised from the dead causing great fear. Then raised to heaven.

These and more are real world events prophecied in Revelation. Plainword tries to make believe these things happened in the spirit world in 70AD. I fail to see how 1/3 of mankind killed is a spirit world happening.

 

[Endoscopy]

All of this happened in the physical world.

When did 1/3 of mankind being killed happen. Not just a city or country but all of mankind. When did the 2 witnesses with great power hated by the people lay in the street for 3 1/2 days and then be raised from the dead causing great fear of the people. Then raised to heaven. We only have the technology today for the whole world to see this.

Explain away.

 

[PlainWord]

A-F,

Brother PW,

I always have agreed with that.​

My bad then, good to hear.

Except that the dest of Jerusalem was not the last day.

The gathering is the at the end of the ToG's to restore Jerusalem.

It was the last day of the Mosaic Age. Show me a passage that contains the destruction of Jerusalem followed by a teaching of a massive gap of thousands of years then the last day of the planet, please. The ToG ended when Jerusalem was destroyed and the Roman forced departed. There was no Jerusalem left to trod until it was rebuilt years later.

The ToG's began in 70 ad, but did not end there.​

Actually it began in 66-67 AD and continued until the Fall was completed.

Yes, sort of, but the time that we truly bear His image completely comes after this life is over. We bear His spiritual image right now through the indwelling of the HS, but the image cannot be completed until after our death.

They are 2 separate concepts that have been melded together to satisfy the completely false teaching that everything ended in 70 ad.

When we bear His image in the after life, it will be with Him on His throne in His glory. We are not there at this time.​

This is a long topic, will come back to it later.

Except those who alive and look for Him when He comes at the coming of salvation Heb 9:27-28. Not 70 ad.​

Can I suggest you re-read Heb 9:22-27? Please read it with the idea that the Law was passing away in 70 AD and Christ returned to end the Law and usher in the Messianic Age. This is the key passage that gives us the timing.

But as it now is, He has once for all at the consummation and close of the ages appeared to put away and abolish sin by His sacrifice.

The "consummation" was the burning of Jerusalem and the temple. This event closed the ages and notice, this is when He returned and abolished our sins. This agrees with Luke 21:28:

Now when these things begin to occur, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption (deliverance) is drawing near.

Thus, He paid for our sins on the Cross, but the path to Heaven was not cleared until 70 AD and remains open to continuously receive believers when we die. The picture of this is painted in Rev 21:24-27. The gates to heaven are never shut and the nations, rules and leaders (us as rulers on earth) bring our glory into it.​

​

 

[emekrus]

The major keys to understanding rapture --which will happen simultaneously with the first resurrection(1 Thess 4, 1Corinthians 15) are these two analogies by Jesus. (1) As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be at the coming of the son of man (2) as it was in the days of lot, so shall it be at the coming of the Lord.

What happened in the days of Noah is akin to what happened in the days of lot. Here is the common denominator. In the days of Noah and Lot, God had to take away his own before destroying the rest.

Hence, the same thing is going to happen at the coming of Jesus for the first resurrection and rapture of the living saints. Jesus will come and take his own (both sleeping and living) then after, the rests will face God's wrath, as it was in the days of Noah and Lot.

And since God's wrath is a part of the Great Tribulation, mid-trib rapture is a definite scriptural truth. So get confident about it. Believe it, because that's what's written.

 

[Endoscopy]

The fallacy of Plainword's thesis is it doesn't explain the physical world events in Revelation. I listed many of them but he ignores it.

 

[PlainWord]

When did 1/3 of mankind being killed happen. Not just a city or country but all of mankind. When did the 2 witnesses with great power hated by the people lay in the street for 3 1/2 days and then be raised from the dead causing great fear of the people. Then raised to heaven. We only have the technology today for the whole world to see this.

Explain away.

Didn't we cover this before? Anyway, you have to first recognize all the symbolism John used from the OT prophets, especially Isaiah who he copied the most. This writing style is known as "apocalyptic literary style." This was done to hide the true meaning from those who would oppress or kill the writer. Google it.

You see the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was predicted by the OT prophets such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Zechariah, Joel, etc. In Isa 13, the prophet is calling the Jewish people, "mankind." Here he is discussing the pending Babylonian attack and the results which would be that "mankind would be scarcer than pure gold of Ophir." Thus John sees the same thing after the invasion of Rome in 70 AD.

See also Jer 25:29-31. In this passage you have Israel referred to as "earth," the "nations" are the 12 tribes, and Jews are "all mankind." The context is clear as it is Jerusalem that is to receive the punishment. Again, this passage is all about the desolation by Babylon and John is borrowing the language to compare it to what Rome was about to do again.

Jer 25:

[SUP]29 [/SUP]For behold, I am beginning to work evil in the city which is called by My Name, and shall you go unpunished? You shall not go unpunished, for I am calling for a sword against all the inhabitants of the earth, says the Lord of hosts.[SUP]30 [/SUP]Therefore prophesy against them all these words and say to them: The Lord shall roar from on high and utter His voice from His holy habitation; He shall roar mightily against His fold and pasture. He shall give a shout like those who tread grapes [in the winepress, but His shout will be] against all the inhabitants of the earth.​

[SUP]31 [/SUP]A noise will come even to the ends of the earth, for the Lord has a controversy and an indictment against the nations; He will enter into judgment with all mankind; as for the wicked, He will give them to the sword, says the Lord.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Thus says the Lord of hosts: Behold, evil will go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirling tempest will rise from the uttermost parts of the earth.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And those slain by the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be lamented or gathered or buried; their [dead bodies] shall be dung upon the ground.*​

There were roughly 1.2 million Jews in Jerusalem at the time, the city haven swollen to 5 times its normal population when Jews from all over the (known) world returned for Passover. Now most of these 1.2 million died of starvation, disease and plagues and at the hands of their own countrymen, but Rome killed 1/3 of them. When the war was over, only 97,000 remained alive and were taken captive back to Rome or sold into slavery.

As for the two witnesses, one was clearly Jesus, son of Ananus. The other witness is unclear.

*Footnotes:

1. Jeremiah 25:11 As both sacred and secular history show, this prophecy was approximately literally fulfilled, whether it refers to the duration of the Babylonian Empire (with its heyday from the beginning of Nebuchadnezzar’s reign in 605 b.c. till its downfall in 539), or to the length of the Jewish captivity in Babylon (with the first deportation in 605 b.c. and the first return in 538). For the marvelous literal fulfillment of specific details concerning the destruction and perpetual desolation of Babylon, see footnotes on Isa. 13:22 and 14:23.

 

[PlainWord]

The fallacy of Plainword's thesis is it doesn't explain the physical world events in Revelation. I listed many of them but he ignores it.

Until you learn to read prophetic apocalyptic literature as used by the OT prophets, you will continue to struggle. I can help you understand but you need to open your eyes first and perhaps do some reading in the OT so that you can start to see for yourself.

In an earlier post I said you were on step 1. Actually, I don't even think you found the ladder yet. Sorry, just keeping it real.

 

[Endoscopy]

Didn't we cover this before? Anyway, you have to first recognize all the symbolism John used from the OT prophets, especially Isaiah who he copied the most. This writing style is known as "apocalyptic literary style." This was done to hide the true meaning from those who would oppress or kill the writer. Google it.

You see the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was predicted by the OT prophets such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Zechariah, Joel, etc. In Isa 13, the prophet is calling the Jewish people, "mankind." Here he is discussing the pending Babylonian attack and the results which would be that "mankind would be scarcer than pure gold of Ophir." Thus John sees the same thing after the invasion of Rome in 70 AD.

See also Jer 25:29-31. In this passage you have Israel referred to as "earth," the "nations" are the 12 tribes, and Jews are "all mankind." The context is clear as it is Jerusalem that is to receive the punishment. Again, this passage is all about the desolation by Babylon and John is borrowing the language to compare it to what Rome was about to do again.

Jer 25:

[SUP]29 [/SUP]For behold, I am beginning to work evil in the city which is called by My Name, and shall you go unpunished? You shall not go unpunished, for I am calling for a sword against all the inhabitants of the earth, says the Lord of hosts.[SUP]30 [/SUP]Therefore prophesy against them all these words and say to them: The Lord shall roar from on high and utter His voice from His holy habitation; He shall roar mightily against His fold and pasture. He shall give a shout like those who tread grapes [in the winepress, but His shout will be] against all the inhabitants of the earth.​

[SUP]31 [/SUP]A noise will come even to the ends of the earth, for the Lord has a controversy and an indictment against the nations; He will enter into judgment with all mankind; as for the wicked, He will give them to the sword, says the Lord.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Thus says the Lord of hosts: Behold, evil will go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirling tempest will rise from the uttermost parts of the earth.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And those slain by the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be lamented or gathered or buried; their [dead bodies] shall be dung upon the ground.*​

There were roughly 1.2 million Jews in Jerusalem at the time, the city haven swollen to 5 times its normal population when Jews from all over the (known) world returned for Passover. Now most of these 1.2 million died of starvation, disease and plagues and at the hands of their own countrymen, but Rome killed 1/3 of them. When the war was over, only 97,000 remained alive and were taken captive back to Rome or sold into slavery.

As for the two witnesses, one was clearly Jesus, son of Ananus. The other witness is unclear.

*Footnotes:

1. Jeremiah 25:11 As both sacred and secular history show, this prophecy was approximately literally fulfilled, whether it refers to the duration of the Babylonian Empire (with its heyday from the beginning of Nebuchadnezzar’s reign in 605 b.c. till its downfall in 539), or to the length of the Jewish captivity in Babylon (with the first deportation in 605 b.c. and the first return in 538). For the marvelous literal fulfillment of specific details concerning the destruction and perpetual desolation of Babylon, see footnotes on Isa. 13:22 and 14:23.

ROFL
Your explanation falls way short!!
When were the 2 witnesses killed after they used the power God gave to them?
How did the whole world (not just a city) see the bodies lay in the street for 3 1/2 days?
When did 1/3 of all mankind killed happen? Not just a city or country. ALL MANKIND.
Where is this recorded?
This and other real world events are prophecied in Revelation.

 

[Endoscopy]

E

Didn't we cover this before? Anyway, you have to first recognize all the symbolism John used from the OT prophets, especially Isaiah who he copied the most. This writing style is known as "apocalyptic literary style." This was done to hide the true meaning from those who would oppress or kill the writer. Google it.

You see the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was predicted by the OT prophets such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Zechariah, Joel, etc. In Isa 13, the prophet is calling the Jewish people, "mankind." Here he is discussing the pending Babylonian attack and the results which would be that "mankind would be scarcer than pure gold of Ophir." Thus John sees the same thing after the invasion of Rome in 70 AD.

See also Jer 25:29-31. In this passage you have Israel referred to as "earth," the "nations" are the 12 tribes, and Jews are "all mankind." The context is clear as it is Jerusalem that is to receive the punishment. Again, this passage is all about the desolation by Babylon and John is borrowing the language to compare it to what Rome was about to do again.

Jer 25:

[SUP]29 [/SUP]For behold, I am beginning to work evil in the city which is called by My Name, and shall you go unpunished? You shall not go unpunished, for I am calling for a sword against all the inhabitants of the earth, says the Lord of hosts.[SUP]30 [/SUP]Therefore prophesy against them all these words and say to them: The Lord shall roar from on high and utter His voice from His holy habitation; He shall roar mightily against His fold and pasture. He shall give a shout like those who tread grapes [in the winepress, but His shout will be] against all the inhabitants of the earth.​

[SUP]31 [/SUP]A noise will come even to the ends of the earth, for the Lord has a controversy and an indictment against the nations; He will enter into judgment with all mankind; as for the wicked, He will give them to the sword, says the Lord.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Thus says the Lord of hosts: Behold, evil will go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirling tempest will rise from the uttermost parts of the earth.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And those slain by the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be lamented or gathered or buried; their [dead bodies] shall be dung upon the ground.*​

There were roughly 1.2 million Jews in Jerusalem at the time, the city haven swollen to 5 times its normal population when Jews from all over the (known) world returned for Passover. Now most of these 1.2 million died of starvation, disease and plagues and at the hands of their own countrymen, but Rome killed 1/3 of them. When the war was over, only 97,000 remained alive and were taken captive back to Rome or sold into slavery.

As for the two witnesses, one was clearly Jesus, son of Ananus. The other witness is unclear.

*Footnotes:

1. Jeremiah 25:11 As both sacred and secular history show, this prophecy was approximately literally fulfilled, whether it refers to the duration of the Babylonian Empire (with its heyday from the beginning of Nebuchadnezzar’s reign in 605 b.c. till its downfall in 539), or to the length of the Jewish captivity in Babylon (with the first deportation in 605 b.c. and the first return in 538). For the marvelous literal fulfillment of specific details concerning the destruction and perpetual desolation of Babylon, see footnotes on Isa. 13:22 and 14:23.

Here is Revelation 9 verses about the real world. Explain how mankind not just a region was killed in 70AD.

Revelation 9 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
1 Then the fifth angel blew [his] trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth; and to the angel was given the key [a]of the shaft of the Abyss (the bottomless pit).
2 He opened the long shaft of the Abyss (the bottomless pit), and smoke like the smoke of a huge furnace puffed out of the long shaft, so that the sun and the atmosphere were darkened by the smoke from the long shaft.
3 Then out of the smoke locusts came forth on the earth, and such power was granted them as the power the earth’s scorpions have.
4 They were told not to injure the herbage of the earth nor any green thing nor any tree, but only [to attack] such human beings as do not have the seal (mark) of God on their foreheads.
5 They were not permitted to kill them, but to torment (distress, vex) them for five months; and the pain caused them was like the torture of a scorpion when it stings a person.
6 And in those days people will seek death and will not find it; and they will yearn to die, but death evades and flees from them.


14 Saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, Liberate the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.
15 So the four angels who had been in readiness for that hour in the appointed day, month, and year were liberated to destroy a third of mankind.
16 The number of their troops of cavalry was twice ten thousand times ten thousand (200,000,000); I heard what their number was.
17 And in [my] vision the horses and their riders appeared to me like this: the riders wore breastplates the color of fiery red and sapphire blue and sulphur (brimstone) yellow. The heads of the horses looked like lions’ heads, and from their mouths there poured fire and smoke and sulphur (brimstone).
18 A third of mankind was killed by these three plagues—by the fire and the smoke and the sulphur (brimstone) that poured from the mouths of the horses.

 

[CandieM]

I like to believe that rapture will happen and that we won't have to stay and suffer the torment mentioned the Book of Revelations. It's entirely possible that rapture won't happen. I'm on-the-fence on this one. I can say that I don't want to be the one to use it as an excuse to not better myself in Christ. Ha, I have enough excuses for that already. I want to be as Christ-like as I can, no matter what happens.

*sigh* It's a long road. ♥ We're lucky we have each other to help one another on this road. Props to slave for caring so much.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I like to believe that rapture will happen and that we won't have to stay and suffer the torment mentioned the Book of Revelations. It's entirely possible that rapture won't happen. I'm on-the-fence on this one. I can say that I don't want to be the one to use it as an excuse to not better myself in Christ. Ha, I have enough excuses for that already. I want to be as Christ-like as I can, no matter what happens.

*sigh* It's a long road. ♥ We're lucky we have each other to help one another on this road. Props to slave for caring so much.

Hello again GandieM,

I know that there is and has been on-going controversy about the timing of when the church is gathered, but those who are in Christ will not be on the earth to experience God's wrath, which will be fulfilled via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and whatever plagues the two witnesses bring upon the earth.

Regarding this, Jesus experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. But as for the unbeliever, God's wrath still rests upon them - John 3:36. Below are some of the promises that we will not be exposed to the time of God's wrath:

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." 1 Thes.1:10

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." - 1 Thes.5:9

" Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" - Rom.5:9

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you out of the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." - Rev.3:10


We have those who believe that the church is going to be on this earth protected during the time of God's wrath. The error in this is not understanding the severity and magnitude of that time of wrath. To give you an example, with just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, a fourth and a third, respectively, the total fatalities will equal over half the earth's population and that is just during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And that is not including the fatalities resulting from trumpets 1, 2 and 3 nor the fatalities from the bowl judgments. Regarding this time of wrath Jesus said, "if those days had been allowed to go on any longer, no one would be left alive upon the earth.

In addition to the reasons above, from chapters 1 thru 3 in the book of Revelation, only the word Ekklesia translated Church is used. In those same chapters you will not find the word Hagios translated as Saints. Likewise, from chapter 4 onward, you will never see the word Ekklesia/church again. The word church is never used within the narrative of God's wrath.

Regarding this, in John 14:1-3, Jesus promised His disciples and therefore all believers, that He was going to the Father's house to prepare dwelling places for us and that He would be coming back to gather us and to take us back to the Father's house. Needless to say, it would not be much of a promise to look forward to if the Lord was to gather us after His wrath had been poured out. Not only that, but God would be punishing the righteous with the wicked, which God does not do.

Also, Paul referred to the church being gathered as the "Blessed Hope" and that we should comfort one another with this hope. It would not be much of a blessed hope, nor could we comfort one another if in fact we were to also be exposed to God's wrath.

The Lord is going to remove His church prior to this time which Jesus referred to as "a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen, from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again."

The only groups who will be here during the time of God's wrath will be the nation Israel, the 144,000 for the first 3 1/2, the great tribulation saints, who will be those who will receive Christ after the church has been gathered. And of course all unbelievers who will have continued to reject Christ and who continue to live according to the sinful nature.

 

[CandieM]

Thank you for posting this. It fed my soul.


I know I'm not going to want to be here in the future, that's for sure. Gods will, not mine.


Amen.

 

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A-F,



My bad then, good to hear.



It was the last day of the Mosaic Age.

It was the last day of the temple age. The Mosaic age ended at the cross when the veil was torn from top to bottom.

Show me a passage that contains the destruction of Jerusalem followed by a teaching of a massive gap of thousands of years then the last day of the planet, please.

First, there is no gap. That is in the 70 ad/pre-trib mindset. The time from 70 ad until 1967 was the great trib/ToG's.


Lk 21:20-24, 24, Shows that after Jerusalem is destroyed and the people flee, there is a time of the Gentiles. You want it to end in 70 ad to fit a false time line.


The 2 W's are in the Tog's while outside Jerusalem, the 3 1/2 times are not years, they are the 2nd half of the statue in Daniel 2.


The woman in the wilderness in Rev 12, is in the wilderness of the gentile nations for the same time period, 70 ad until 1967.

The ToG ended when Jerusalem was destroyed and the Roman forced departed.

You have already stated and shown that Romans were posted there for years after the dest.

There was no Jerusalem left to trod until it was rebuilt years later.

The end of the ToG's is when Jerusalem is restored to Israel.

Actually it began in 66-67 AD and continued until the Fall was completed.

That was only the beginning.

This is a long topic, will come back to it later.

Can I suggest you re-read Heb 9:22-27? Please read it with the idea that the Law was passing away in 70 AD and Christ returned to end the Law

The law passed away with the death of Jesus on the cross.

and usher in the Messianic Age.

The Messianic age began on Pentecost when the kingdom and salvation came. We are still in that age.

This is the key passage that gives us the timing.

But as it now is, He has once for all at the consummation and close of the ages appeared to put away and abolish sin by His sacrifice.

The "consummation" was the burning of Jerusalem and the temple. This event closed the ages ​

The temple age.

and notice, this is when He returned and abolished our sins.

That was done at the cross, not 70 ad

This agrees with Luke 21:28:

Now when these things begin to occur, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption (deliverance) is drawing near.​

The redemption was on the day of Pentecost.

Thus, He paid for our sins on the Cross,

but the path to Heaven was not cleared until 70 AD

Jesus ascended to the Father in 33 ad, that cleared the way.

and remains open to continuously receive believers when we die.

The picture of this is painted in Rev 21:24-27. The gates to heaven are never shut and the nations, rules and leaders (us as rulers on earth) bring our glory into it.

​

​

Here again, the scene that takes place after we are all dead and in the spirit, is being melded to fit the preconceived 70 ad finished time line. This happens after death is destroyed in the eternal place after this planet has ended. The symbolism is being slanted to fit as if this is describing the situation of us still being in the flesh. To satisfy the 70 ad finished time line.