The Rapture

VCO · Apr 27, 2017

And he said their are two folds, and the wording implies that later on the two folds will become ONE (at the Rapture). Now no matter HOW MANY think the two folds are Jews and Gentiles, I am thoroughly convinced that they are O.T. Saints and N.T. Saints. The N.T. Saints that HE WILL BUILD in the future, are NOT THE PEOPLE HE IS TALKING TO, because the birthday of the Church ASSEMBLY (the other sheep not of this Fold O.T. Saints), will not begin until the Day of Pentecost after HIS ascension. THEREFORE THE FUTURE TENSE IS CORRECT for that N.T.FOLD, and Past Tense is correct for the O.T. Saints, the FIRST FOLD, which HE was talking to.

John 10:14-17 (HCSB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] “I am the good shepherd. I know{<-- Past Tense} My own sheep,
and they know Me, {the O.T. FOLD, they have the faith of Abraham}
[SUP]15 [/SUP] as the Father knows Me, and I know the Father. I lay down My life for the sheep.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I have other sheep that are not of this fold; {the N.T. FOLD is yet to be built at that time, but the O.T. FOLD, the first part of the Flock, is already complete.}
I must bring them also, {HE will not be finished building THAT OTHER FOLD
until the last person becomes a member of that N.T. FOLD}
and they will listen to My voice. {they too have the faith of Abraham}
Then {and NOT BEFORE} there will be one flock, one shepherd.
{therefore they become one FLOCK at the Rapture}
[SUP]17 [/SUP] This is why the Father loves Me, because I am laying down My life so I may take it up again.

I don't know how He could have made it more PLAIN than that.

THUS:

Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my {N.T. FOLD} assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;

VCO · Apr 27, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

May I add this for those who erroneously think part of all of the Tribulation period has already happened. IT ALL BEGINS WITH THIS EVENT:

Daniel 9:26-27 (ASV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come {Antichrist rules the revived Roman Empire} shall destroy the city and the sanctuary {the original Roman Empire}; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week{a week of YEARS, and that begins with a PEACE TREATY WITH ISRAEL, making Headline News on every News Channel on the Planet, }: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease {Antichrist's breaking of the Peace Treaty, will also make Headline News all over the World.}; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.

On the wing of the Temple will be something that makes the whole Temple desolate. What is it? Let's speculate:

Do you know WHY the High Priest had a rope tied to one ankle EVERY TIME he entered to Holy of Holies to sprinkle the blood on the Mercy Seat?

Leviticus 16:14-16 (ESV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And he shall take some of the blood of the bull and sprinkle it with his finger on the front of the mercy seat on the east side, and in front of the mercy seat he shall sprinkle some of the blood with his finger seven times.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.

Because if the High Priest died in the Holy of Holies, his dead body had to be drug out quickly or it defied the Holy of Holies, making it desolate.

So what could Antichrist possibly put on the Temple Wing to make the whole temple Desolate, the Abomination of Desolation?

Perhaps this:

What could possibly tempt Israel to make a Peace Treaty with a Dictator that is possessed by the Devil himself?

My guess is: PERMISSION TO REBUILD THE TEMPLE.

You scoff at that notion? I suggest you seriously think about it.

Revelation 20:4-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. ⌊I⌋ also ⌊saw⌋ the people who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God’s word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

VCO · Apr 27, 2017

The Picture that did not show up above was pointing out that the Mercy Seat is the lid to the Ark of the Covenant, between the angels, like this one:

PlainWord · May 8, 2017

2nicee said:

Since the tribulation took place in 70 AD and dealt only with Israel, I think the debate is over. Note only those in Judea were told to flee. If the great tribulation was a future world-wide event, there would be no ability to flee unless you had a rocket ship. Also, Jesus clearly states in Mat 24:34 that "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." The "this generation" was the generation He was speaking to. So there's that.

abcdef · May 8, 2017

PlainWord said:

70 ad was the beginning of the trib.. (2nd half of the 7 times)

It lasted over 1900 yrs.

It ended in 1967.

It is NOT a literal 3 1/2 years.

popeye · May 8, 2017

abcdef said:

No evidence of this at all

abcdef · May 8, 2017

popeye said:

1900 years of persecution of Israel by the Roman beast nation is history.

That's reality.

Issachar92 · May 8, 2017

popeye said:

True. completely made that up LOL

Also, are you telling me Israel is not going thru trouble now? all its trouble's ended in 1967?

This is embarrasing.

abcdef · May 8, 2017

Issachar92 said:

No, I'm not saying that all their troubles ended in 1967.

1967 is the date when the times of the gentiles (ToGs) ended, and Israel was restored to complete control over Jerusalem.

sujatha · May 8, 2017

I don't believe.

abcdef · May 8, 2017

sujatha said:

You don't believe......yet.

The question is really, not IF you believe, just WHEN you will believe.

PlainWord · May 8, 2017

abcdef said:

It ended in 70 AD, it started in 66 AD. Immediately after the "Tribulation of those Days" which was the suffering inside the city, under the Tyrants John and Simon as much if not more than anything the Romans did, came the judgment. The judgment was signified by the sun and moon turning dark, heavens being shaken, etc, just as they symbolized the OT judgment of Babylon, Egypt, etc. Christ used the Romans as His instrument of judgment just as God used the Medes and Persians to punish and desolate Babylon.

PlainWord · May 8, 2017

popeye said:

Hey Popeye,

It really comes down to basic reading comprehension. The question posed by the disciples came after much discussion the entire day about the coming destruction of the temple and desolation of the city. The "end of the age" is NOT the end of the world, but rather the end of the Jewish world, the end of Israel as they knew it. It was in this context that the question was asked and in this context that Christ answered it.

Therefore the disciples associated the destruction of the temple, with the return of the Lord and with the end of their age. In answering, the Lord gave them the signs leading up to the destruction of the temple and the surrounding of Jerusalem by "armies." He warned of the many false christs which would spring up and deceive people. He told them that they would be killed and 3 of the 4 who asked the question were indeed killed. He then told them He would spare the Elect and rescue them from His wrath that was to come on Jerusalem for their wickedness and failure to believe in Him.

After Jesus gave His answer He let them know that everything He had just said, including the part of His return, would come to that very generation, their generation and not some future generation thousands of years later. This is the clear reading on the text and any other theory is pure speculation and involves inventing gaps and literary gymnastics.

I know, my view requires that Christ returned in 70 AD at the same time the Roman's broke through to the Temple to begin its destruction and the desolation of the whole city, stone-by-stone. There is strong evidence and eye-witness testimony that this is what happened. But, keep in mind when God judged and condemned cities in the OT past, the "cosmic disturbances" mentioned were nearly identical to the one Jesus mentions. God Himself didn't return and appear to men, but His presence was felt. There was a divine closeness to His judgment. I believe the same applies to Jesus' return. His presence was felt to execute judgment wrath and to save the righteous.

This is the only way that the Olivet makes sense and fits with the rest of scripture. If you read the below Greek text, you will see that the question posed dealt with "when His presence" would return, not Him literally as a man or king. This type of return explains everything, such as the 4-5 passages where Christ tells some people that they would live to see His return and the high priests and elders that they too would see Him coming.

See, it is His Presence that was to return and did return in Verse 30-32. Therefore, the great tribulation is long over and thus no need for a rapture. BTW, they did hide in caves in the city and the Romans hid in the mountains.

Gabriel2020 · May 8, 2017

that is a good discussion. it is hard to determine the order of things to come, but one thing i believe is that he will remove all those that are his.. i believe the tribulation is for those who needs to be convinced the hard way to come to Christ.

Yahweh_is_gracious · May 8, 2017

Gabriel2020 said:

Overall, I think similar to you on this matter. On the whole, I like to read the discussions about end-times and I really enjoy reading other places online where it's presented more as a thesis rather than a discussion. It's very thought provoking, and I enjoy having something complex to let my brain chew on.

abcdef · May 8, 2017

PlainWord said:

Brother PlainWord,

If the destruction of Jerusalem is a literal 3 1/2 years, where is the other 3 1/2?

7 times, would be "complete".

But the dest of Jeru, as you see it, is only is 3 1/2.

Is there another 3 1/2, somewhere?

Ahwatukee · May 8, 2017

How convenient to be able to spiritualize events away that are meant to be taken literally. It allows you to find fulfillment in order to support you belief PW. With this type of interpretation one can make scripture mean whatever one wants to.

That last seven years of the seventy sevens that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem, is set to take place in conjunction with the end of the age and the time of the beast/antichrist. The "tribulation of those days" has not yet begun. The event of the sun, moon and stars--and there are several-- will be literal events that will take place as a result of the seals trumpets and bowl judgments leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

Those events will take place just as they are written

abcdef · May 8, 2017

Brother PlainWord,

Just a few more steps....

The dest of Jeru is the 6th seal. Yes/No?

-------

The times of the gentiles didn't end in 70 ad., they just started.

They are the same time as the 2 witnesses, and the woman of Rev 12., both are the same time,

The time that Israel is outside Jerusalem.

The 1st, 3 1/2ts, is from Babylon until 70 ad.

The 2nd, 3 1/2ts, is from 70 ad until 1967, when the ToG's ended, when Jerusalem was restored to the control of Israel.

Making 7 complete times, the same time as the statue of Dan. 2.

Bladerunner · May 8, 2017

PlainWord said:

No plainword.....the generation (38 years) that Jesus spoke of, was the generation at that time (32 AD. This 38 years brings the year of destruction to 70 AD..... p.s. 38 years was the exact number of years the Israelites wondered the Wilderness after leaving Egypt in the Exodus. (38 years).

I see you are splitting up Daniel's 70th week. If that is the case the first 69 do not mean anything either.

It is apparent for preterist and others including yourself to change the Hermeneutics of Daniel's prophecy to fit their belief(s).

While Revelation does describe what happened to Jerusalem within its pages.. Rem,,,Revelation was written in 95 AD Long after the 70AD destruction. It had nothing to do with Daniel's 70th week. In fact, 70 AD started a period of time known as 'time of the Church'.... No, no the time of the gentiles which started in 562 BC and will end at the time of the Anti-Christ. It is still going. In the mean time the 'time of the Church' is filling more everyday crawling toward that magical number (the Father only knows) that will signal the fullness of the Church and initiate the Hebrew words: (CAUGHT-UP) or the Rapture.

This event will allow the 'Anti-Christ' to be revealed during the post-rapture-pre-tribulations time gap.

Now Plainword, somewhere between this time I just mentioned and the middle part of the Great Tribulations (for those 3/4-trib people) 1/2 the population of the Earth will die. The earth's populations is setting at around 7 billion todate. 3.5 Billion will lose their lives.

I am saying that the preterist and those other Israel replacing theologies are all FALSE Gospels.

I know,,,I am being mean but there is no other way I can say it and it be easier to hear. To think it is hard to hear now, How hard will it be when Billions are left behind.

One final word....I know you don't want to or cannot debate the above but I thought I would tell you at least one last time.

Good luck!

VCO · May 8, 2017

PlainWord said:

You are so confused, you totally amaze me:

Did you even stop to think about WHAT YEAR John wrote the Book of Revelation, while exiled to the Island of Patmos?

Wikipedia said:

So much for the WILD THEORY that the tribulation took place in 70 A.D.

You also apparently do not believe what the Scriptures literally say:

Revelation 3:10 (NKJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Revelation 6:12-17 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Then I saw Him open the sixth seal. A violent earthquake occurred; the sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair; the entire moon became like blood;
[SUP]13 [/SUP] the stars of heaven fell to the earth as a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a high wind;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] the sky separated like a scroll being rolled up; and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the military commanders, the rich, the powerful, and every slave and free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] because the great day of Their wrath has come! And who is able to stand?”

Revelation 7:13-14 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Then one of the elders asked me, “Who are these people robed in white, and where did they come from?”
[SUP]14 [/SUP] I said to him, “Sir, you know.” Then he told me: These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

NO, JESUS was not talking about 70 A.D. when He said:

Matthew 24:21-22 (HCSB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For at that time there will be great tribulation, the kind that hasn’t taken place from the beginning of the world until now and never will again!
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Unless those days were limited, no one would survive. But those days will be limited because of the elect.

Whoever taught you that the Great Tribulation was the events of 70 A.D., CLEARLY was a False Teacher.

Now, I have to ask, HAS NO ONE EVER TAUGHT YOU TO READ THE CONTEXT, before you decide what the verse means? That is oh so TRUE about Mat. 24:34; and you only have to read the preceding verse to discover that HE was not talking about the Generation to whom HE was talking to, but rather, the GENERATION IN THE FUTURE, that in reality sees these EVENTS that I pointed out, actually happening:

Matthew 24:33-34 (HCSB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] In the same way, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near—at the door!
[SUP]34 [/SUP] I assure you: This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things take place.

Now if you really want to learn how to properly interpret the Prophecies of the End Times, here is a link to the best Tape Series that I have ever heard on the Book of Revelation. They are sermons by Dr. John MacArthur, Jr., and he is very thorough in his teaching verse by verse. Therefore the series is 36 hours long, and to encourage you to listen to ALL of it, I personally have listened to all 36 hours, four times.

https://www.gty.org/library/resources/sermons-library/scripture/1?book=66&chapter=All

The Rapture

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