The Rapture

VCO · Jun 25, 2017

VCO said:

Zechariah 14:4-5 (ESV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

I believe it is the 144,000 Jews who were SEALED from harm who flee in that verse 5.

J7 · Jun 25, 2017

The Greek for Army is 'strateuma'.

However, this is not the word used in this instance. Here Luke uses the word 'stratopedon', which means military camps.

So the translation is "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by military camps / encamped soldiers'

VCO said:

Luke 21:20 (ESV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.

I think the KEY WORD to understanding which time He is talking about is ARMIES, plural. Yes in 70 A.D. The Roman Army, singular ecompassed the City, in a seige, and after their victory, they tore down every single block of the Temple. But the attack coming SEVERAL ARMIES AT ONCE, has not happened yet. but it will NEAR His Second Coming:

Zechariah 14:2-3 (ESV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.

Revelation 19:11-14 (ESV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.

[SUP]14 [/SUP] And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.
Revelation 19:19 (ESV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.

Issachar92 · Jun 25, 2017

PlainWord said:

Did Enoch and Elijah read what I wrote? They were the only two exceptions to the below rule:

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.

As for the people who were alive when Christ returned in 70 AD, where does it say they won't die physically? I think you are misunderstanding the meaning of 1 Cor 15 and what really happened then.

When was "death swallowed up in victory?"

"when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying..."

What does it mean for corruptible to put on incorruption? This happened to the dead in Christ at the resurrection, right? But it also happens to the living at the same time, right? It says so right here.

We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

What was the change? It isn't the physical body becoming a spiritual body. It is the dead spirit inside becoming a living spirit. When did this happen? Keep reading.

The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

This happened when the Law ended. The strength of sin ended because the Law ended in 70 AD when the Temple was destroyed for the last time. All the saints who died up to that point were resurrected and finally could be admitted to heaven with their new glorified bodies. Christ has "Keys to Hades and Death" (Rev 1:18). He freed them back then. They are no longer in Hades waiting.

The living who were saved when Christ returned had their souls transformed so that they would not have to go to Hades (Sheol) first which had always been the case before this. So now when we die physically, we immediately go to heaven. Those who die today literally "step out" of their dead physical corpse and are immediately in new glorified spiritual bodies and this is how we go to heaven.

Twilight zone theology.
My goodness this is a strange doctrine. Let me ask you: Is there ANYTHING that is yet to be fulfilled in the bible in your opinion?

PlainWord · Jun 25, 2017

Issachar92 said:

Josephus is not a gospel nor do I call it one. Josephus recorded the incredible events of 66-70 AD as an eye witness. His usefulness is in telling us how the prophesies of the OT and the Messiah were literally fulfilled - every word of them.

The "blessed hope" of the appearance of the Savior indeed applied to them, in their generation. They had an expectation of seeing the Lord return. Everything AND I MEAN EVERYTHING tells us they expected to see Christ return. Nothing, AND I MEAN NOTHING, gives us a 2,000 year waiting period. Many of them died as martyrs but some "standing there" indeed saw Christ return. This is the harmony of scripture. Your view allegorizes the immanency of His return making it applicable to us and thus robbed them of the glorious hope that they had and that was promised to them.

J7 · Jun 25, 2017

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 22: 2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.[/FONT]

The destruction of Jerusalem was an act of the Father.

If you attribute it to Jesus you end up in a crazy Preterist science fiction

PlainWord · Jun 25, 2017

Issachar92 said:

Notice that 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 links sin and death with the Law: “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law” 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 compliments Paul’s message in Romans 7:9. According to Romans 7:9 and 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 the Law brings sin and sin brings spiritual death. Thus the change in v. 52 that occurred to those still living on earth at the time of the resurrection was a change from spiritual death to spiritual life by the fulfillment and subsequent passing away of the Law at the destruction of the Temple and the concurrent resurrection in A.D. 70.
This idea that spiritual life follows the passing away of the Law is implicit in Romans 8:1-2: “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.” Notice that according to Romans 8:1-2 just as the Law brought spiritual death, faith in Christ frees the believer from this curse of spiritual death. This idea that spiritual death comes with the Law and that spiritual life comes from being freed from the Law by faith in Jesus Christ is echoed in Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19-20, and Colossians 2:11-13.

“So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God (Romans 7:4).”
“For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me (Galatians 2:19-20).”

“Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ (Colossians 2: 9-13).”

PlainWord · Jun 25, 2017

J7 said:

“Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

PlainWord · Jun 25, 2017

Issachar92 said:

I can't say that Ez 38-39 have been fulfilled. Full preterists will say that it was fulfilled in 1071 with the first crusades, 1,0001 years from AD 70. I can't say that I'm on board with that.

Burninglight · Jun 25, 2017

2nicee said:

The first three and a half years of the last 7 years of history will be very peaceful, and when the people shout peace, peace, then will come sudden destruction and tribulation such as never before in world history. That is when the antichrist will declare himself as God and persecute the church to the death. Jesus will come back some time after the second half of the 7 year period after the antichrist wears out the saints of the most high. Thinking to change the times and the laws. The Rapture doctrine is a false teaching; besides, it is not referred to as rapture in Scripture but a catching away. When the term "Rapture" is used beware.
Paul is very clear in 2 Thes. 2; that day will not happen until there is a falling away first and the man of sin is revealed (Antichrist). He warns you not to be deceived by things like the rapture teachings. None of the disciples believed it. It was all started by Scofield and Darby because of Margret McDonald's false vision!

J7 · Jun 25, 2017

PlainWord said:

So that then surely shows that Revelation is for Christ's future return.

Revelation was written AD96 anyhow, so is nothing to do with Jerusalem at this point

PlainWord · Jun 25, 2017

J7 said:

There is no certainty that Revelation was written then, just speculation. Many believe, as I do, that Revelation was written prior to 70 AD and that most of it dealt with the destruction of Israel. Look at how it starts. Would 2,000 years later seem applicable.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Then there are these passages which tend to support an earlier appearance of Christ as I've been saying. We have 5 mentions of Him coming quickly. That is more than enough witness passages. Is 2,000 years quick in your view?

Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.

“Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

Burninglight · Jun 25, 2017

When he opened the 5th seal he saw under the alter the souls saying "Oh God when will you judge and avenge our blood on those that dwell on the earth? White robes were given to them. They were told to "Wait until your fellow servants are killed as they were should be fulfilled." That is talking about the rest of the church in the world. Jesus promised we would have tribulation and that it would be like the days of Noah who went through the tribulation of great waters hid in the ark we too will go through great tribulation hid in Christ. God will give us the strength we need for the time and not before.

J7 · Jun 25, 2017

Well actually there is one very strong reason, namely that every Church authority and writer up to 1000AD, including John's contemporaries, spoke of Revelation being written AD95/96.

However, there are 2 incontrovertible proofs. Here is 1 - it is dead simple.

Revelation 2 : 27 [FONT=&quot]And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.[/FONT]

Past tense, Jesus refers to the smashing of Jerusalem. Ergo, Revelation is post AD73.

PlainWord said:

MattforJesus · Jun 25, 2017

The Bible says the beast persecutes the saints for three and one half years,and when he has scattered the power of the holy people those that remain shall be gathered unto Christ,and then Jesus will avenge the saints,and the world will attack Israel,and Jesus comes back with all the saints and defeats the world,and saves Israel.

The Bible says during that time of persecution,do not fight back,for then you are acting like the world that fights physically for their beliefs,which this is the patience and faith of the saints.

Some people might not like the thought of going through persecution,and might deny it on that,but it will be different than what they feel now if they abide in the truth,for when it gets to that point and you abide in the truth,your mindset will be different,for the Spirit will strengthen you,and if people can have the guts to commit sucide,the saints by the Spirit will have the courage,and power,to overcome the persecution to where it is alright,which the Holy Spirit is what helped Jesus endure the cross,and all that suffering.

Denadii · Jun 25, 2017

PlainWord said:

Sounds like you have kinks in your time line

PlainWord · Jun 25, 2017

Denadii said:

How so????

Denadii · Jun 25, 2017

PlainWord said:

Here is the writings of Hegesippus where he discusses Daniel's prophesy of the destruction of Jerusalem (i.e., the great tribulation) and the "Abomination of Desolation. Hegesippus was perhaps the earliest church historian (110-180 AD, died in Jerusalem). According to him, Dan 9 is done.

"It is not a wonder," he said, "Iohannes, if you persist all the way to the destruction of the city, since divine aid has already abandoned it. But it is a wonder that you do not believe it is about to be destroyed, since you may read the prophetic books, in which the destruction of our country has been announced to you and and the restored greatness again destroyed by the Roman army. For what else does Daniel shout? He prophesized not indeed what had already been done but what would happen.

What is the abomination of devastation (desolation) which he proclaimed would be by the coming Romans, unless it is that which now threatens? What is that prophecy, which has been often recalled by us announced by God on high, that the city would be utterly destroyed at that time, when its fellow tribesmen will have been killed by the hands of the citizens, unless that which we see now being fulfilled? And perhaps, because it no longer pleases for the temple polluted with forbidden blood to be defended, it pleases that it be cleansed by fire."

I would suggest you spend less time reading Hegesippus and more time in Jesus Word. The man was probably smoking banana peels when he wrote that... Remember..Everything you read, of that type, is nothing but opinion which means no more than your opinion, or mine

Denadii · Jun 25, 2017

J7 said:

Prophesies perfectly fulfilled but not the great tribulation. There was great tribulation but it was NOT The Great Tribulation..That will happen very soon.

Not to offend, PW but you are wrong.

J7 · Jun 25, 2017

Denadii said:

[FONT=&quot]21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.[/FONT]

No, The Greatest Tribulation was the destruction of Judea and Jerusalem.

Denadii · Jun 25, 2017

Issachar92 said:

Enoch and Elijah....Say! Have you heard of the two witnesses that show up during the tribulation period...Look it up. They call for people to repent and everyone who stands against them, flames come out of the mouths of these two witnesses and destroys them, that is, the people who come against them.

Before you say something is a lie, you need to have your facts, your ducks in a row. your poop in a group, your act together,

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