the "rapture"
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ha?
so you understand the Gospel of Grace and the Finished Work of Christ.....but only for a concocted Plan B church brought to you by Samuel Untermeyer and Cyrus Scofield.
what's that got to do with me?
Dispensationalism isn't the truth. so if that's what you think you're not compromising, i'd agree.
can't help ya Redster.
so you understand the Gospel of Grace and the Finished Work of Christ.....but only for a concocted Plan B church brought to you by Samuel Untermeyer and Cyrus Scofield.
what's that got to do with me?
Dispensationalism isn't the truth. so if that's what you think you're not compromising, i'd agree.
can't help ya Redster.
Plan B parenthetical church = not really Finished Work....the church and israel are separate. Jesus didn't really make one new man.
Dispensational theology is not as closely connected with Calvinistic theology as is Covenant theology. This explains in part why it so quickly and easily found favor across denominational and theological lines in America, for there were many American Christians who did not appreciate the rigid dogmatism of five-point Calvinism and desired more freedom for diversity, in typical American pluralistic fashion. One could wish that Dispensationalists could have maintained such tolerance for diversity without becoming so dogmatic and exclusivistic about their own theological and eschatological opinions, which led eventually to the "Evangelical" movement breaking free from the "Fundamentalist" movement in the 1940s. Dispensational distancing from strict Calvinism allows Pentecostal and Holiness theologies, which are quite Arminian, to be Dispensational in theology as well. Covenant theologians are quick to fault Dispensational theology for not adhering to pure Calvinism, but sometimes unfairly charge all Dispensationalists with being Arminian in their theology.
Some of the prominent features of Dispensational theology include (1) distinct dispensations of time, (2) the dichotomy of Israel and the Church, (3) the unconditional covenant of God with Abraham, to be fulfilled physically and literally for the Jewish people in the future Davidic/millennial kingdom. Upon these basic presuppositions the system of Dispensational theology is constructed.
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Dispensationalists are not agreed as to the number of dispensations of time wherein God deals with men in different ways. At least three dispensations are required for the theological system to provide the contrasts necessary; these are the dispensation of law, the dispensation of grace, and the dispensation of the millennial kingdom. The most popular calculation of dispensational time periods is seven. They are usually identified as
(1) The dispensation of innocence (Gen. 1-3), wherein the test was the eating from the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil," and the failure was the fall of man into sin.
(2) The dispensation of conscience (Gen. 4­8:14), wherein the test was proper sacrifice and the failure was the continual evil of men's hearts judged by the flood.
(3) The dispensation of human government (Gen. 8:15­11), wherein the test was governance and compliance with government and the failure was evidenced at the tower of Babel.
(4) The dispensation of promise (Gen 12­Exod. 18), wherein the test came when God offered the Law to the Israelites, and the failure is alleged to be their abandonment of a prior grace/faith relationship with God by their rash and foolish acceptance of the Law.
(5) The dispensation of Law (Exod. 19­Acts 1), the test of which came when Jesus came to earth and offered the Jews the Davidic kingdom which they refused, so God postponed the fulfillment of the kingdom promise.
(6) The dispensation of grace (Acts 2­Rev. 19), wherein the test is for Christians to live obediently in grace, but the failure is predicted to be the apostasy of the institutional church.
(7) The dispensation of the kingdom (Rev. 20), a thousand year period which will end in final rebellion leading to the judgment of God upon the earth and the inauguration of a "new heaven and new earth."
~
A second prominent feature of Dispensational theology is the radical dichotomy and disjuncture of Israel and the Church. In an apparent attempt to keep law and grace distinctly separated, Dispensational theology has divided the nation of Israel from any connection with the Church of Jesus Christ, the Body of Christ. They are alleged to be so mutually exclusive as two separate peoples that "never the twain shall meet." J.N. Darby indicated that "the Jewish nation is never to enter into the Church."6 The physical race of Jewish people is regarded as God's "earthly people" while Christians are regarded as God's "heavenly people." Dispensational theology indicates that separate promises are given to Jews and to Christians, and differing destinies await them. Why does God have a dual-purpose, dual-plan for His created human beings? Is God a segregationist? Does God engage in racial supremacy, nationalistic favoritism or religious exclusivism? Law and grace can surely be differentiated and separated without reverting to such a radical and permanent disjunction between Israel and the church, between Jews and Christians. Such separationism forces Dispensationalists to misinterpret such verses as "he is a Jew who is one inwardly" (Rom. 2:29); "they are not all Israel who are from Israel" (Rom. 9:16); and "He...made both groups one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall" (Eph. 2:14).
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/dthcthchth.html
Dispensational theology is not as closely connected with Calvinistic theology as is Covenant theology. This explains in part why it so quickly and easily found favor across denominational and theological lines in America, for there were many American Christians who did not appreciate the rigid dogmatism of five-point Calvinism and desired more freedom for diversity, in typical American pluralistic fashion. One could wish that Dispensationalists could have maintained such tolerance for diversity without becoming so dogmatic and exclusivistic about their own theological and eschatological opinions, which led eventually to the "Evangelical" movement breaking free from the "Fundamentalist" movement in the 1940s. Dispensational distancing from strict Calvinism allows Pentecostal and Holiness theologies, which are quite Arminian, to be Dispensational in theology as well. Covenant theologians are quick to fault Dispensational theology for not adhering to pure Calvinism, but sometimes unfairly charge all Dispensationalists with being Arminian in their theology.
Some of the prominent features of Dispensational theology include (1) distinct dispensations of time, (2) the dichotomy of Israel and the Church, (3) the unconditional covenant of God with Abraham, to be fulfilled physically and literally for the Jewish people in the future Davidic/millennial kingdom. Upon these basic presuppositions the system of Dispensational theology is constructed.
~
Dispensationalists are not agreed as to the number of dispensations of time wherein God deals with men in different ways. At least three dispensations are required for the theological system to provide the contrasts necessary; these are the dispensation of law, the dispensation of grace, and the dispensation of the millennial kingdom. The most popular calculation of dispensational time periods is seven. They are usually identified as
(1) The dispensation of innocence (Gen. 1-3), wherein the test was the eating from the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil," and the failure was the fall of man into sin.
(2) The dispensation of conscience (Gen. 4­8:14), wherein the test was proper sacrifice and the failure was the continual evil of men's hearts judged by the flood.
(3) The dispensation of human government (Gen. 8:15­11), wherein the test was governance and compliance with government and the failure was evidenced at the tower of Babel.
(4) The dispensation of promise (Gen 12­Exod. 18), wherein the test came when God offered the Law to the Israelites, and the failure is alleged to be their abandonment of a prior grace/faith relationship with God by their rash and foolish acceptance of the Law.
(5) The dispensation of Law (Exod. 19­Acts 1), the test of which came when Jesus came to earth and offered the Jews the Davidic kingdom which they refused, so God postponed the fulfillment of the kingdom promise.
(6) The dispensation of grace (Acts 2­Rev. 19), wherein the test is for Christians to live obediently in grace, but the failure is predicted to be the apostasy of the institutional church.
(7) The dispensation of the kingdom (Rev. 20), a thousand year period which will end in final rebellion leading to the judgment of God upon the earth and the inauguration of a "new heaven and new earth."
~
A second prominent feature of Dispensational theology is the radical dichotomy and disjuncture of Israel and the Church. In an apparent attempt to keep law and grace distinctly separated, Dispensational theology has divided the nation of Israel from any connection with the Church of Jesus Christ, the Body of Christ. They are alleged to be so mutually exclusive as two separate peoples that "never the twain shall meet." J.N. Darby indicated that "the Jewish nation is never to enter into the Church."6 The physical race of Jewish people is regarded as God's "earthly people" while Christians are regarded as God's "heavenly people." Dispensational theology indicates that separate promises are given to Jews and to Christians, and differing destinies await them. Why does God have a dual-purpose, dual-plan for His created human beings? Is God a segregationist? Does God engage in racial supremacy, nationalistic favoritism or religious exclusivism? Law and grace can surely be differentiated and separated without reverting to such a radical and permanent disjunction between Israel and the church, between Jews and Christians. Such separationism forces Dispensationalists to misinterpret such verses as "he is a Jew who is one inwardly" (Rom. 2:29); "they are not all Israel who are from Israel" (Rom. 9:16); and "He...made both groups one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall" (Eph. 2:14).
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/dthcthchth.html
Cui bono from this absurd "theology/eschatology"?
.....................
According to Dispensational theology, Israel constitutes God's "earthly people" and Christians are God's "heavenly people." The "earthly people" of Israel received a literal promise from God in the unconditional covenant to Abraham. God only makes covenants with the Jews, and He had promised the Jews that He would establish the Davidic Kingdom on earth. Jesus came to earth for just that purpose, to establish the earthly Davidic Kingdom for the Jews, but they rejected Him.
God therefore postponed the re-implementation of the Kingdom until Jesus comes again to set up the millennial kingdom, which will be the fulfillment of the "new covenant" promised to the Jews. The period of the postponed kingdom, the "dispensation of grace," is a parenthetical time period wherein God's primary purpose is interrupted and held in abeyance.
The Church is not to be identified with God's kingdom and was unforeseen by all of the Old Testament prophets whose prophesies never refer to the Church age.
The Church, which is primarily for Gentiles, began on Pentecost, and there are many "mysteries" concerning God's revelation of Himself in Jesus Christ so as to "call out" a "heavenly people" whose destiny is to be seated with Christ on the throne in the New Jerusalem of heaven. Meanwhile the primary futuristic focus is on the return of Jesus Christ to re-establish the realm of the earthly Davidic Kingdom in Palestine during the 1000 year millennial period which fulfills the promised "new covenant," the "dispensation of the kingdom." (Some Dispensationalists will allow that the "new covenant" may have a double application: a spiritual application for the church and a physical application for Israel.)
The return of Christ is "imminent," expected at "any moment." It will be preceded by the "rapture" in order to remove the Church and keep Israel and the Church separated. Dispensational theology is necessarily premillennial, but that does not mean that all premillennialists subscribe to Dispensational theology. There are covenant theologians who believe in a premillennial return of Christ.
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/dthcthchth.html
.....................
According to Dispensational theology, Israel constitutes God's "earthly people" and Christians are God's "heavenly people." The "earthly people" of Israel received a literal promise from God in the unconditional covenant to Abraham. God only makes covenants with the Jews, and He had promised the Jews that He would establish the Davidic Kingdom on earth. Jesus came to earth for just that purpose, to establish the earthly Davidic Kingdom for the Jews, but they rejected Him.
God therefore postponed the re-implementation of the Kingdom until Jesus comes again to set up the millennial kingdom, which will be the fulfillment of the "new covenant" promised to the Jews. The period of the postponed kingdom, the "dispensation of grace," is a parenthetical time period wherein God's primary purpose is interrupted and held in abeyance.
The Church is not to be identified with God's kingdom and was unforeseen by all of the Old Testament prophets whose prophesies never refer to the Church age.
The Church, which is primarily for Gentiles, began on Pentecost, and there are many "mysteries" concerning God's revelation of Himself in Jesus Christ so as to "call out" a "heavenly people" whose destiny is to be seated with Christ on the throne in the New Jerusalem of heaven. Meanwhile the primary futuristic focus is on the return of Jesus Christ to re-establish the realm of the earthly Davidic Kingdom in Palestine during the 1000 year millennial period which fulfills the promised "new covenant," the "dispensation of the kingdom." (Some Dispensationalists will allow that the "new covenant" may have a double application: a spiritual application for the church and a physical application for Israel.)
The return of Christ is "imminent," expected at "any moment." It will be preceded by the "rapture" in order to remove the Church and keep Israel and the Church separated. Dispensational theology is necessarily premillennial, but that does not mean that all premillennialists subscribe to Dispensational theology. There are covenant theologians who believe in a premillennial return of Christ.
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/dthcthchth.html
This is scary stuff, really. Especially if you think about the consequences of dispensationalism theologically and practically, dividing law and gospel not the least. Ugh!
But I have to say I find it hard to get this one right without covenantalism, against both "replacement" and the two-people heresy.
But I have to say I find it hard to get this one right without covenantalism, against both "replacement" and the two-people heresy.
agree.
the Covenant Theology i adhere to is the Biblical one.
One New and Final Covenant with man - redemption through Christ Jesus, unto everlasting life. to the jew first then the gentile....
replacement theology is another misnomer: there's nothing to replace.
National Israel was Promised Salvation through The SEED Jesus, the election obtained(s) it, and the gentiles are grafted in.
nothing to replace.
the Covenant Theology i adhere to is the Biblical one.
One New and Final Covenant with man - redemption through Christ Jesus, unto everlasting life. to the jew first then the gentile....
replacement theology is another misnomer: there's nothing to replace.
National Israel was Promised Salvation through The SEED Jesus, the election obtained(s) it, and the gentiles are grafted in.
nothing to replace.
tribesman...
here's what's gradually crept into the debate (in no small measure helped by things like The New perspective on Paul):
Supersessionism (also called fulfilment theology or replacement theology) is a Christian interpretation of New Testament claims, viewing God's relationship with Christians as being either the "replacement" or "fulfillment" or "completion" of the promise made to the Jews (or Israelites) and Jewish proselytes.
Biblical expressions of God's relationships with people are known as covenants,[1] so the contentious element of supersessionism is the idea that the New Covenant with the Christians and the Christian Church replaces, fulfills or completes the Mosaic Covenant (or Torah) with the Israelites and B'nei Noah. A major question in supersessionism is how or to what degree are the ethics of the Mosaic Covenant displaced or even completely abrogated by the New Covenant.
Supersessionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
see it?
crafty.
here's what's gradually crept into the debate (in no small measure helped by things like The New perspective on Paul):
Supersessionism (also called fulfilment theology or replacement theology) is a Christian interpretation of New Testament claims, viewing God's relationship with Christians as being either the "replacement" or "fulfillment" or "completion" of the promise made to the Jews (or Israelites) and Jewish proselytes.
Biblical expressions of God's relationships with people are known as covenants,[1] so the contentious element of supersessionism is the idea that the New Covenant with the Christians and the Christian Church replaces, fulfills or completes the Mosaic Covenant (or Torah) with the Israelites and B'nei Noah. A major question in supersessionism is how or to what degree are the ethics of the Mosaic Covenant displaced or even completely abrogated by the New Covenant.
Supersessionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
see it?
crafty.
that's what i meant. i know what the Covenant was and is.
Jeremiah 31:33
"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
my point was:
the 'replacement theology' debate has morphed into the two-people debate (dispensational church age - gospel only THEN return to judaic mosaic).
its now shifted to this debate: did He taketh away the first FOR JEWS?
Hebrews 10:9
Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second.
see previous post.
Jeremiah 31:33
"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
my point was:
the 'replacement theology' debate has morphed into the two-people debate (dispensational church age - gospel only THEN return to judaic mosaic).
its now shifted to this debate: did He taketh away the first FOR JEWS?
Hebrews 10:9
Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second.
see previous post.
Galatians 3
The Law and the Promise
15To give a human example, brothers:f even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
19Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
21Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slaveg nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
The Law and the Promise
15To give a human example, brothers:f even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
19Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
21Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slaveg nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
Would you subscribe to the basic ideas of NCT presented in this wiki article?
New Covenant Theology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia <- Link
New Covenant Theology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia <- Link
here's what i suspect was part of the plan all along (speculation)
and it comes back to the [alert: conspiracy theory
] DIALECTIC process.
problem: JESUS came and Fulfilled the Promise right on schedule....Synagogue of Satan must hit reset
reaction: Dispensationalism (which destroyed the idea of BIBLICAL COVENANTALISM re - the REAL Promise)...bonus feature - create christian zionism golem.
solution: "restore" COVENANT, but with a twist.
that's what Kim Riddlebarger was trying to express about the New Perspective on paul. its distortion of biblical Covenant Theology VS Dispensational theology. or rather its introduction of the SYNTHESIS we are now being offered: muddied covenants.
its the leaven of the Pharisees.
while "restoring" "covenant", mix in the Talmudic version: B'nai Noah
anyways......back on topic.
there's NO PRETRIB RAPTURE
and it comes back to the [alert: conspiracy theory
] DIALECTIC process.problem: JESUS came and Fulfilled the Promise right on schedule....Synagogue of Satan must hit reset
reaction: Dispensationalism (which destroyed the idea of BIBLICAL COVENANTALISM re - the REAL Promise)...bonus feature - create christian zionism golem.
solution: "restore" COVENANT, but with a twist.
that's what Kim Riddlebarger was trying to express about the New Perspective on paul. its distortion of biblical Covenant Theology VS Dispensational theology. or rather its introduction of the SYNTHESIS we are now being offered: muddied covenants.
its the leaven of the Pharisees.
while "restoring" "covenant", mix in the Talmudic version: B'nai Noah
anyways......back on topic.
there's NO PRETRIB RAPTURE