The rapture?

[saved1975]

Not by a rapture but rather a flight to a Place of Safety. Rev 12:14-16

Rev 12 has nothing to do with the Church, we will be in heaven at that time.
Not by "Flight", But by rapture.
Matt 25: 1--13. 1 Thess 4: 17. Please note the word, "Caught UP", 1 Thess 4: 17.
Caught up is the same meaning as Acts 1: 9. Acts 8: 39. and receive in Jn 14: 3.

[Q] Where did Jesus go in Jn 14: 2, [A] Heaven.
[Q]Where is Jesus going to transport His people to, [A] heaven v3.

Heaven is not a wilderness, Rev 12: 14.

 

[saved1975]

Like so many, you don't understand what the Great Tribulation period is. It is NOT GOD'S Wrath. It is the temptation of Satan to worship him as if he were God. God's wrath comes AFTER the Great Tribulation.

Jesus says clearly in Mat 24:29-31 that HE comes AFTER the Tribulation.

Paul says clearly that "that day" (Day Christ returns) comes AFTER the Man of Sin 2 Thes 2.

Therefore, you are calling both liars, not me.

You do not have ONE SINGLE passage that states any of these so-called Rapture Key tenants.

1. The Lord returns BEFORE the Tribulation
2. The Lord does a u-turn after returning and goes back to heaven alone or with anyone
3. Any lesson where two returns of Christ are discussed.
4. Any lesson where the Saints (and/or Elect) alive during the Tribulation are distinguished from any other saint.

Satan comes acting as Christ to deceive the Church into worshiping him BEFORE our true Christ returns. That is fact and that is what the Bible teaches over and over. Read the events as Christ tells them for yourself. Christ tells you exactly what happens during the Tribulation and when He returns. He does NOT discuss any earlier Rapture return in the Olivet Discourse.

Mat 24:

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.

24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.

27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The Great Tribulation is all about Satan deception. God's wrath is poured out AFTER the Tribulation. Don't let the spiritual book of Revelation throw you and stop listening to the traditions of man. The Rapture is a new theory from 1830. It wasn't even popular in the church until Scofield Reference Bible promoted it in 1917.

Paul tells us when we get our rest. It is when the Lord returns with His wrath.

2 Thes 1:

7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God's wrath doesn't come before the Tribulation, it comes AFTER!!!

Rev 18:

4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

5 For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.

6 Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.

The 144K are Firstfruits redeemed from among men, they are not last fruits taken after a Rapture. This fact is confirmed!!

Rev 14:

4 ...These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

1 Cor 15:

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

Do you see the order here? Christ then the firstfruits then those who are Christ's at His coming????

Christ defeats death LAST, not FIRST as the Pre-Trib Rapture falsely teaches.

See below. Paul is crystal clear. Can't you see the correct order as Paul instructs??

1 Cor 15:

25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

The Last enemy destroyed is death!!! Death is destroyed AFTER Christ reigns on earth. The changing of the living happens at the end of the Millennial Reign. It does NOT happen at the start. Go back and read all your supposed Rapture verses, none of them discuss any living person being changed. The only passage where this is discussed is here.

1 Cor 15:

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This is not the Last Trump or 7th trumpet of Revelation as most think. It certainly is not at some fictious Pre-Trib Rapture event either. When must the living be changed?? Before the final eternal state and not before then.


Heb 9:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Here we see in the context of Christ return ALL MUST DIE ONCE!!! The above says nothing about a transformation. The above says nothing about a Third return.

It's you who obviously doesn't understand the end times.
That's why you are twisting the scriptures.


Jesus does come after the tribulation, But the pre-trib rapture isn't the coming of Jesus, He only comes to meet us IN THE AIR, Whereas when He comes back after the tribulation, He comes to the ground.
They are two separate events.

Jesus doesn't do a U-turn.
Only those who believe the post trib rapture must think He does a U-turn.

You are getting the "Elect Jews", Matt 24, Mixed up with the elect Church.
1 Thess 2: 19. 1 Thess 3: 13 says we come back with Jesus, SO how can we come back and be on earth going through the tribulation at the same time??.

As for 2: Thess 2: 1--8 shows us.
[A] the two commings of Jesus.
The raptured Church before the man of sin is revealed. Vs 3: 6--7.


[A 1]The two coming's of Jesus, V1
"By the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ", The second coming.
[A 2] "AND our gathering together unto Him", The pre-trib rapture.

The pre-trib rapture.
V 3, The Greek for "Falling away" means, "A withdrawing, A departing, a taking away".
Please note, It doesn't say a falling away FROM THE FAITH, does it?.
Falling away, Is the taking away of the Church.
V3, Then the man of sin will be revealed.

V6--7, The Church is holding the man of sin back, And when we go,
V8, The wicked one can come.

The pre-trib rapture was taught by God and recorded in the Bible, It wasn't formed in 1917.

Jesus and Paul says we will be delivered from the coming tribulation period.
Why on earth do people want to tribuilate when the Bible tells us we will be saved from it.

 

[saved1975]

Doth thou suffer from "The Roger Syndrome" as well sir?

(See Post #52)

At least Roger and I believe the Bible.
Give me ONE scripture that says the Church goes through the tribulation period.

I mean the "Church", Not the Elect Jews, the backsliders or the people on earth at that time.

 

[john832]

Revelation is written as a journal...the recording of the dream/vision as it happened in John's mind...In no place does Revelation say it will happen in that specific order..

Huh? What do you think it is? A drug induced psychosis?

 

[john832]

They will during the tribulation time. God is going to raise up 144,000 Jews to preach the gospel during the tribulation. With the church gone God is going to graft in the branch that was broken off to allow the Gentiles to have their time.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

C'mon, you know better than this. There are only 12,000 Jews out of the 144,000...

Rev 7:5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;

Saying that all Israelites are Jews is like saying all Americans are Pennsylvanians. All Pennsylvanians are Americans but not all Americans are Pennsylvanians. All Jews are Israelites but not all Israelites are Jews.

 

[Osiyo]

The Bible is God’s Word. But some of the interpretations derived from it are not. There are many cults and Christian groups that use the Bible--claiming their interpretations are correct. Too often, however, the interpretations not only differ dramatically but are clearly contradictory. This does not mean that the Bible is a confusing document. Rather, the problem lies in those who interpret and the methods they use.

We need, as best as can be had, the guidance of the Holy Spirit in interpreting God’s Word.
Because we are sinners, we are incapable of interpreting God’s word perfectly all of the time. The body, mind, will, and emotions are affected by sin and make 100% interpretive accuracy impossible. This does not mean that accurate understanding of God’s Word is impossible. But it does mean that we need to approach His word with care, humility, and reason. Additionally, we need, as best as can be had, the guidance of the Holy Spirit in interpreting God’s Word. After all, the Bible is inspired by God and is addressed to His people. The Holy Spirit helps us to understand what God’s word means and how to apply it.

On the human level, to lessen the errors that come in our interpretations, we need to look at some basic biblical interpretive methods. I’ll list some of the principles in the form of questions and then apply them one at a time to a passage of Scripture.
I offer the following principles as guidelines for examining a passage. They are not exhaustive nor are they set in concrete.

• Who wrote/spoke the passage and to whom was it addressed?
• What does the passage say?
• Are there any words or phrases in the passage that need to be examined?
• What is the immediate context?
• What is the broader context in the chapter and book?
• What are the related verses to the passage’s subject and how do they affect the understanding of this passage?
• What is the historical and cultural background?
• What do I conclude about the passage?
• Do my conclusions agree or disagree with related areas of Scripture and others who have studied the passage?
• What have I learned and what must I apply to my life?

In order to teach you how these questions can affect your interpretation of a passage, I have chosen one which, when examined closely, may lead you into a very different interpretation than what is commonly held. I leave it to you to determine if my interpretation is accurate.

“Then there shall be two men in the field; one will be taken, and one will be left." (Matt. 24:40).

Jesus spoke the words, and they were recorded by Matthew. Jesus spoke them to His disciples in response to a question, which we will get to later.

The passage simply says that one out of two men in a field will be taken. It doesn’t say where, why, when, or how. It just says one will be taken. It doesn’t define the field as belonging to someone or in a particular place.

No particular word in this verse really stands out as needing to be examined; but to follow this exercise, I will use the word "taken." By using a Strong Concordance and a dictionary of New Testament words (Vine’s, for example), I can check the Greek word and learn about it. The word in Greek is paralambano. It means "1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self, 2) to receive something transmitted."

A point worth mentioning about word studies is that a word means what it means in context. However, by examining how a word is used in multiple contexts, the meaning of the word can take on a new dimension. For example, the word for "love" in Greek is "agapao." It is generally believed to mean "divine love." This seems obvious since it is used in John 3:16 in that way. However, the same word is used in Luke 11:43. Jesus says, "Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the most important seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces." (NIV). The word used there is "agapao." It would seem then that the meaning of the word might mean something more along the lines of "total commitment to."

However, we must be careful not to insert a meaning of a word from one context into that of another. For example: 1) That new cadet is green. 2) That tree is green. The first green means "new and inexperienced." The second one means the color green. Would we want to impose the contextual meaning of one into the other? It wouldn’t be a good idea.

 

[Osiyo]

This is where this particular verse will come alive. The immediate context is as follows, Matt. 24:37-42, "As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. [SUP]38[/SUP]For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; [SUP]39[/SUP]and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. [SUP]40[/SUP]Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. [SUP]41[/SUP]Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. [SUP]42[/SUP]Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come." (NIV).

Immediately we can see that the person taken in verse 40 is paralleled by people being taken in verse 39. That is, the "being taken" are of the same kind.

A further question needs to be asked. Who was taken in verse 39? Was it Noah and his family, or was it the people who were eating and drinking? The answer to that question might help us understand the original passage better. Therefore, the next interpretive step will help us greatly.


A passage should always be looked at in context--not only in its immediate context of the verses directly before and after it but also in the context of the chapter it is in and the book in which it is written.

Jesus’ discourse from which our verse was taken began with a question. Jesus had just left the temple, and in verse 2 told His disciples that " . . . not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." Then in verse 3 the disciples asked Jesus, "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" (NIV). Jesus then goes on to prophesy about things to come at the end of the age. He speaks of false Christs, of tribulation, of the sun being darkened, of His return, and of two men in a field where one will be taken and the other left.

The context, then, is eschatological. That means that it deals with the last things or the time shortly before Jesus’ return. Many people think that this verse in Matt. 24:40 refers to the rapture spoken of in 1 Thess. 4:16-17. It may. But it is interesting to note that the context of the verse seems to suggest that the wicked are taken--not the good.

Now, about this time you might be thinking that this method of interpreting passages isn’t that good. After all, the "one taken, one left" verse is obviously about the rapture. Right? Well, maybe. You see, we all come to the Bible with preconceived ideas. Sometimes they are right--sometimes wrong. We should always be ready to have our understanding of the Bible challenged by what it says. If we are not willing, then we are prideful. And God is distant from the proud (Psalm 138:6).

It just so happens that there are related verses, in fact, a parallel passage found in Luke 17:26-27. "Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. [SUP]27[/SUP]People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all." (NIV).

Immediately we discover that related verses do indeed affect how we understand our initial verse. It is clear from this passage in Luke that the ones taken by the flood are those who were eating and drinking and being given in marriage. In other words, it wasn’t the godly people who were taken, it was the wicked.

As you can see, this has a profound impact on how we understand our passage in Matt. 24:40. Does the context suggest that the one in the field who is taken is the one who is wicked? Also, how does this context affect my preconceived ideas about this verse? Let’s read the verse again in context. Matt. 24:37-42, "As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. [SUP]38[/SUP]For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; [SUP]39[/SUP]and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. [SUP]40[/SUP]Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. [SUP]41[/SUP]Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. [SUP]42[/SUP]"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come." (NIV).

What do you think now? Is the one taken the good or the bad? Also, does this verse refer to the rapture or not?

Just asking.

 

[Osiyo]

Of related interest is a passage in Matt. 13:24-30 where Jesus gives the parable of the sower who sows good seed in his field and someone sows tares. The servants asked if they should go immediately and gather up the wheat. But, in verse 30, Jesus says, "Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn."

The point worth noting here is that the first ones gathered are the weeds--not the wheat. This is most interesting since Jesus explains the parable in Matt. 13:36-43 and states that they will be cast into the furnace.

Additionally, when we turn to Luke 17, which is the parallel passage of Matt. 24, we discover that the disciples ask Jesus a question in response to Jesus’ statement that "two will be in the field and one will be taken." In verse 37 they ask, "Where, Lord?" He [Jesus] replied, "Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather."
They are taken to a place of death.

This is a more difficult question to answer. It requires a bit more research. A commentary is worth examining here since they usually provide the historic and cultural backgrounds that help to unravel the text.

In this context, Israel was under Roman rule. They had been denied the right of capital punishment, of self-rule, and the ability to wage war. Rome had dominated the small nation. Judaism was tolerated among the Roman leadership. After all, Israel was a small far-away country with a people that were fanatical about their religion. So, Rome allowed Israel to be ruled by Jewish political puppets.

The Temple was the place of worship for the Israelite community. It was there that the blood sacrifices were made by the high priest for the atonement of the nation. It had taken 46 years to build (John 2:20). Jesus said the temple would be destroyed, which prompted the question which lead to His discourse which contains the passage we are examining.

Culturally, the Jewish people were dedicated to the Old Testament. Within those pages were prophecies of the Messiah, of the end of the age, and of the delivery from bondage. The Jewish people knew that and were in a state of expectation. Along comes Jesus with miracles and words of great power. Naturally, they would look to him as a possible deliverer.

Since the context of the passage suggests that it is the wicked that are taken, I am going to conclude that the one taken in the field is not the good but the bad. I also am tempted to conclude that the wicked are taken to a place of judgment.


I’ve already presented other verses which seem to agree with my conclusion. However, it is not in agreement with all of the commentaries I’ve read on this verse. At this point I would need to present my conclusion to others to see what they think.

Just because I studied the Word and arrived at a conclusion does not mean that it is correct. But it doesn’t mean it is wrong either.

By consulting with others, by examining the word again, and by seeking God and his illumination I can only hope to arrive at the best possible conclusion about a passage.

Interpretation of scripture is for a purpose: To understand God’s word more accurately. With a better understanding of His word, we can then more accurately apply it to the area that it addresses. In this case, the passage deals with an area of the future and area of judgment. It is information that Jesus has revealed, and that He wants us to know about. The application then would be that God will execute judgment upon the unrighteous at the end of the age.

This article is only an illustration. It is basic and does not cover all the points of biblical interpretation. But it does give a direction and an example for you to apply. As I said before, pray. Read His word. Look into the scriptures as best you can with as much understanding and skill as is possible. Be humble in your approach and test everything by the Bible. And be blessed and why not?

 

[john832]

Rev 12 has nothing to do with the Church, we will be in heaven at that time.
Not by "Flight", But by rapture.
Matt 25: 1--13. 1 Thess 4: 17. Please note the word, "Caught UP", 1 Thess 4: 17.
Caught up is the same meaning as Acts 1: 9. Acts 8: 39. and receive in Jn 14: 3.

[Q] Where did Jesus go in Jn 14: 2, [A] Heaven.
[Q]Where is Jesus going to transport His people to, [A] heaven v3.

Heaven is not a wilderness, Rev 12: 14.

We will be in heaven?

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

At the resurrection where will we be?

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Now where will He be?

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Where will we be?

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

We don't go there, Christ comes back here.

 

[saved1975]

We will be in heaven?

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

At the resurrection where will we be?

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Now where will He be?

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Where will we be?

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

We don't go there, Christ comes back here.

You contradict yourself,
1st you say we cannot be where Jesus is. Jn 13: 33, The you say we will be, Jn 14: 3.

2nd you say Jesus comes in the air, 1 Thess 4: 17, Then you say He will stand on the mount of Olives, Zec 14: 4.

[Q] Where did Jesus go to in Jn 14: 3 ??, [A] heaven.
[Q] where is Jesus going to take us in Jn 14: 3 ??, [A] heaven.
When Jesus come back to reign, No one will go to heaven.

The coming of Jesus is in two parts,
[1]In the AIR to raptures His Church to heaven.
[2]To bring His Church back with Him to the EARTH. Two separate events.

I thought you said "We don't go to heaven".
You can believe what you want, But I will believe the Bible.

 

[john832]

You contradict yourself,
1st you say we cannot be where Jesus is. Jn 13: 33, The you say we will be, Jn 14: 3.

Nope, I said we cannot go where Jesus Christ went. Big difference. We don't go to that destination. He returns to the earth and we will be here where He comes.

2nd you say Jesus comes in the air, 1 Thess 4: 17, Then you say He will stand on the mount of Olives, Zec 14: 4.

[Q] Where did Jesus go to in Jn 14: 3 ??, [A] heaven.

Yes, He went to heaven. Did He take anyone with Him? I would like to see some scripture showing that we go to heaven.

[Q] where is Jesus going to take us in Jn 14: 3 ??, [A] heaven.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
It does not say Christ is taking us anywhere in John 14:3. It does very plainly say that He is returning to the earth. It very plainly says He will receive us to Him and we will be with Him. Where will He be when He returns? ON THE EARTH!

When Jesus come back to reign, No one will go to heaven.

Absolutely correct! No one EVER goes to heaven, Christ comes back, the resurrection occurs and we stay here on earth with Him.

The coming of Jesus is in two parts,

This is absolutely untrue. If it were true we would have a second coming and a third coming.

[1]In the AIR to raptures His Church to heaven.

YOu have a little problem here, the scripture NOWHERE says Christ takes the church to heaven, it says Christ returns to the earth.

[2]To bring His Church back with Him to the EARTH. Two separate events.

Not two separate events. Christ doesn't make a "near miss" then a return. He returns.

I thought you said "We don't go to heaven".
You can believe what you want, But I will believe the Bible.

You can believe the concoctions of Fransisco Ribera and John Nelson Darby, I prefer to believe the Bible...

Joh 7:34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.

Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

Jesus Christ plainly says that when He goes to heaven, we cannot come...

Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
Luk 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

Luk 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[saved1975]

Nope, I said we cannot go where Jesus Christ went. Big difference. We don't go to that destination. He returns to the earth and we will be here where He comes.




Yes, He went to heaven. Did He take anyone with Him? I would like to see some scripture showing that we go to heaven.



Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
It does not say Christ is taking us anywhere in John 14:3. It does very plainly say that He is returning to the earth. It very plainly says He will receive us to Him and we will be with Him. Where will He be when He returns? ON THE EARTH!



Absolutely correct! No one EVER goes to heaven, Christ comes back, the resurrection occurs and we stay here on earth with Him.



This is absolutely untrue. If it were true we would have a second coming and a third coming.



YOu have a little problem here, the scripture NOWHERE says Christ takes the church to heaven, it says Christ returns to the earth.



Not two separate events. Christ doesn't make a "near miss" then a return. He returns.



You can believe the concoctions of Fransisco Ribera and John Nelson Darby, I prefer to believe the Bible...

Joh 7:34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.

Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

Jesus Christ plainly says that when He goes to heaven, we cannot come...

Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
Luk 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

Luk 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

[1]You did say Jesus said we can't go where He went.
Yet Jesus said we will go to heaven.

[2]When Jesus went to heaven He went alone, But what has that got to do with it.
He is coming to take us to heave..as e said He would.
See Jn 14: 3,. When Jesus comes back to reign, No one goes to heave, So Jn 14: 3 is talking about the pre-trib rapture to heaven.

[3]The second coming of Jesus is in two parts, First the rapture in the AIR, Second the coming to EARTH.
Two separate events.

Matt 25: 1--13 says those who are ready will go to the marriage feast,
[Q] where is the marriage feast.
[A] In heaven.

[Q]when is the marriage feast,
[A]During the tribulation period.

So how can the Church be in heaven having the marriage feast and going through the tribulation at the same time??.
1 Thess 2: 19, and 1 Thess 3: 13, says we are coming with Jesus.
So how can we be on earth and coming with Jesus at the same time.

Please note, I have given scriptures, Whereas you have given 1st imaginations.

 

[PlainWord]

We will be delivered from the coming wrath.
Lk 21: 36. 1 Thess 1: 10. 1 Thess 5: 9.

There is a wrath of satan, Rev 12: 12.
And the wrath of God, Rev 6: 17.

Those in Revelation 7: 9--15, Are those who get saved during the tribulation, v14.
We aren't appointed to wrath.

I agree, we are not appointed to wrath. As stated previously, the Great Tribulation is NOT God's wrath. Don't allow yourself to be fooled into thinking that seals, trumpets and bowls are God's wrath or that all are part of the Great Tribulation. They are NOT. Nowhere are we told that they are. This is a common mistake that many theologians make.

None of the Bowls are part of the Great Tribulation. They are the wrath of God and are clearly identified as such. The Lord returns at the 7th Trumpet. This is also clearly stated.

As for the Great Multitude, they are not saved during the Great Tribulation. This is conjecture and a tradition of man. There is not a single verse that teaches this. There are no verses that ever make a distinction between a regular saint and a Tribulation Saint. This is a man-made invented term to fit the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine which is also not taught.

Jesus was specifically asked by His disciples to tell them the signs of the end times. Jesus responded in what we call His Olivet Discourse which can be found in Mat 24, Mark 13 and Luke 17 & 21. You will not find a Pre-Trib Rapture lesson taught in any of those accounts. In fact Jesus says in Mark 13:

23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

ALL THINGS, means ALL THINGS. He didn't leave anything out. It is Christ who comes. He should know if He is coming back twice or once. He should know when He is coming. Jesus tells us again in John 15:

15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

Again, Jesus has told us ALL THINGS. Where is Jesus' Rapture lesson??? He never teaches it. In the Old Testament we can find teachings of Christ's birth, life, ministry, crucifixion and resurrection. But we cannot find a Rapture lesson. Why is that?

The Rapture lesson is primarily pieced together from passages from Paul. Are we to believe that Paul revealed something new 20 years or so after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus? Peter tells us in 2 Peter 3 that Paul's teachings are hard to understand and that people twist his words to their own destruction. Paul teaches us that Christ does not return until AFTER the Man of sin is revealed in 2 Thes 2. Paul further teaches us that God will send strong delusion to those who are deceived because they believed the lie.

Satan has been cast to earth. He has but a short time. Don't you think Satan has been setting the stage for his big AntiChrist deception? If you were Satan and you wanted to deceive the Church, wouldn't you be introducing a false doctrine, sending wolves in sheep's clothing so that when you come you can fool Christians?

 

[PlainWord]

It's you who obviously doesn't understand the end times.
That's why you are twisting the scriptures.


Jesus does come after the tribulation, But the pre-trib rapture isn't the coming of Jesus,

He only comes to meet us IN THE AIR, Whereas when He comes back after the tribulation, He comes to the ground.
They are two separate events.

Jesus doesn't do a U-turn.
Only those who believe the post trib rapture must think He does a U-turn.

You are getting the "Elect Jews", Matt 24, Mixed up with the elect Church.
1 Thess 2: 19. 1 Thess 3: 13 says we come back with Jesus, SO how can we come back and be on earth going through the tribulation at the same time??.

As for 2: Thess 2: 1--8 shows us.
[A] the two commings of Jesus.
The raptured Church before the man of sin is revealed. Vs 3: 6--7.


[A 1]The two coming's of Jesus, V1
"By the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ", The second coming.
[A 2] "AND our gathering together unto Him", The pre-trib rapture.

The pre-trib rapture.
V 3, The Greek for "Falling away" means, "A withdrawing, A departing, a taking away".
Please note, It doesn't say a falling away FROM THE FAITH, does it?.
Falling away, Is the taking away of the Church.
V3, Then the man of sin will be revealed.

V6--7, The Church is holding the man of sin back, And when we go,
V8, The wicked one can come.

The pre-trib rapture was taught by God and recorded in the Bible, It wasn't formed in 1917.

Jesus and Paul says we will be delivered from the coming tribulation period.
Why on earth do people want to tribuilate when the Bible tells us we will be saved from it.

Wow, where to begin??? Your belief system is completely wrong and I say that with Love dear friend.

He only comes to meet us IN THE AIR, Whereas when He comes back after the tribulation, He comes to the ground.
They are two separate events.

This is another Tradition of Man and is not taught. First, the Clouds of Heaven are not puffy white clouds that we see every day. They are special clouds of heaven. If you study their use you will see this. Special clouds are found throughout the Bible. God often appeared in them in the OT to Moses, etc. Now look at Acts 1:

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

Do you know of any clouds that pick people up and take them to heaven? I've never seen or heard of it in my lifetime. Clearly, these are unique cloud(s). Notice also that Jesus will return in like manner.

Q: How did He leave?
A: He was taken up then a "very special cloud" received Him.

If He comes back the same way then doesn't it make sense that the "special cloud" will open up, those who are gathered will meet Him there and then He will descend to the ground? Nothing says He returns to heaven or that those gathered are taken to heaven. The story stops at this point. Later we see that Christ is on Mt. Zion with the 144K. My contention is it is the 144K that are gathered to Christ and will descend with Him. The 144K are the ELECT Jesus discusses in Mat 24.

You are getting the "Elect Jews", Matt 24, Mixed up with the elect Church.
1 Thess 2: 19. 1 Thess 3: 13 says we come back with Jesus, SO how can we come back and be on earth going through the tribulation at the same time??.

"Elect Jews" is your term. We are not taught this. We are given no distinction between Saint and Tribulation Saint. This distinction is man-made to fit a man-made doctrine. Just who do you think started the Church??? JEWS!! The biggest church of the day was in Jerusalem pastored by Jesus' own half-brother James. The Gentile Church wasn't started until after Paul had his strange version. Go back and read the account in Acts.

19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming?

13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

The first passage is speaking of the remnant still alive. The second passage you quote is speaking about the Saints who have died and are already in heaven. They are not identified as Raptured Saints. Read 2 Thes 1 as Paul is clearer about who they are. Read Rev 19 & 20 as John is clear too. You will not find a single verse that identifies anyone in heaven as having been transformed and taken there.

Consider today. Every person in heaven has died with the exception of Enoch and Elijah. Only their souls are there. Their bodies are here on earth turning into dust. Why would God bring them all back to earth and resurrect them only to bring them back to the current heaven for a 7 year wait? It makes no sense.

The dead saints are resurrected when Christ returns. They stay here on earth with Christ to rule and reign. Further, it isn't clear if every dead Christian is resurrected or just those martyred during the Tribulation. If you read Rev 20:4-6 you can see this.

As for 2: Thess 2: 1--8 shows us.
[A] the two commings of Jesus.
The raptured Church before the man of sin is revealed. Vs 3: 6--7.

It certainly does NOT!! I don't see anywhere where Paul makes a distinction from a Rapture return and a Second Advent return. He never does and why should he when there is only one return?? If there were two returns, you would expect to see a distinction made each time he changes topics from one return to the other - He never does. Why? Because there is only one future return of Christ. You are twisting my friend.

If you go back and read 2 Thes 1 you will see Paul is clearly discussing the Lord coming with his furious wrath. He doesn't then switch topics to a Rapture then go back to the wrath again!!!

I don't even know why I am bothering explaining this as we are told clearly this:

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

All I can suggest is you pray for the truth and to have your eyes opened before the Hour of Testing that will come upon the whole earth because this hour is coming quickly.

 

[john832]

[1]You did say Jesus said we can't go where He went.
Yet Jesus said we will go to heaven.

Please quote chaper and verse that says we will go to heaven, the reward of the saved is heaven or when we all meet in heaven.

[2]When Jesus went to heaven He went alone, But what has that got to do with it.
He is coming to take us to heave..as e said He would.
See Jn 14: 3,. When Jesus comes back to reign, No one goes to heave, So Jn 14: 3 is talking about the pre-trib rapture to heaven.

He never says He is coming back to take us to heaven, He says he is coming back to the earth to rule...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Rev 5:10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."

[3]The second coming of Jesus is in two parts, First the rapture in the AIR, Second the coming to EARTH.
Two separate events.

Matt 25: 1--13 says those who are ready will go to the marriage feast,
[Q] where is the marriage feast.
[A] In heaven.

Really, show me the scriptures that say we are going to heaven for the Wedding Feast.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."
Rev 19:8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Rev 19:9 Then he said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!' " And he said to me, "These are the true sayings of God."

I'll continue this in the next set of questions...

[Q]when is the marriage feast,
[A]During the tribulation period.

Again, where are the scriptures? Rev 19 shows that the Marriage Supper is connected with the return of Christ...

Rev 19:1 After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God!

After what things?

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

The seventh and last trump...

1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The return of Christ and the Marriage Supper has not yet happened but Christ has begun His reign on the earth...

Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her."
Rev 19:3 Again they said, "Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!"
Rev 19:4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, "Amen! Alleluia!"
Rev 19:5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying, "Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!"
Rev 19:6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, "Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns!

Now the Marriage Supper takes place at the return of Christ to the earth...

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."
Rev 19:8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Rev 19:9 Then he said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!' " And he said to me, "These are the true sayings of God."

And what happens?

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
Rev 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.

Christ makes judes and makes war with the Beast, the False Prophet and those who followed them...

Rev 19:12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
Rev 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
Rev 19:15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,
Rev 19:18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great."
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
Rev 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

So how can the Church be in heaven having the marriage feast and going through the tribulation at the same time??.
1 Thess 2: 19, and 1 Thess 3: 13, says we are coming with Jesus.
So how can we be on earth and coming with Jesus at the same time.

Since we never go to heaven, the Marriage Supper does not occur there. You have assumed many things that I suppose someone has told you (you didn't read it in the scriptures).

The resurrection occurs at the Last Trump when Christ returns, we meet Him in the air and come to earth with Him where He reigns as we have seen.

Please note, I have given scriptures, Whereas you have given 1st imaginations.

You have misquoted and read into the scriptures ideas that just are not there.

Jesus Christ does not do drive-bys. He will return once and for all.

 

[saved1975]

I agree, we are not appointed to wrath. As stated previously, the Great Tribulation is NOT God's wrath. Don't allow yourself to be fooled into thinking that seals, trumpets and bowls are God's wrath or that all are part of the Great Tribulation. They are NOT. Nowhere are we told that they are. This is a common mistake that many theologians make.

None of the Bowls are part of the Great Tribulation. They are the wrath of God and are clearly identified as such. The Lord returns at the 7th Trumpet. This is also clearly stated.

As for the Great Multitude, they are not saved during the Great Tribulation. This is conjecture and a tradition of man. There is not a single verse that teaches this. There are no verses that ever make a distinction between a regular saint and a Tribulation Saint. This is a man-made invented term to fit the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine which is also not taught.

Jesus was specifically asked by His disciples to tell them the signs of the end times. Jesus responded in what we call His Olivet Discourse which can be found in Mat 24, Mark 13 and Luke 17 & 21. You will not find a Pre-Trib Rapture lesson taught in any of those accounts. In fact Jesus says in Mark 13:

23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

ALL THINGS, means ALL THINGS. He didn't leave anything out. It is Christ who comes. He should know if He is coming back twice or once. He should know when He is coming. Jesus tells us again in John 15:

15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

Again, Jesus has told us ALL THINGS. Where is Jesus' Rapture lesson??? He never teaches it. In the Old Testament we can find teachings of Christ's birth, life, ministry, crucifixion and resurrection. But we cannot find a Rapture lesson. Why is that?

The Rapture lesson is primarily pieced together from passages from Paul. Are we to believe that Paul revealed something new 20 years or so after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus? Peter tells us in 2 Peter 3 that Paul's teachings are hard to understand and that people twist his words to their own destruction. Paul teaches us that Christ does not return until AFTER the Man of sin is revealed in 2 Thes 2. Paul further teaches us that God will send strong delusion to those who are deceived because they believed the lie.

Satan has been cast to earth. He has but a short time. Don't you think Satan has been setting the stage for his big AntiChrist deception? If you were Satan and you wanted to deceive the Church, wouldn't you be introducing a false doctrine, sending wolves in sheep's clothing so that when you come you can fool Christians?

You obviously haven't read Rev 6: 17..
I give scriptures, And you give your own thoughts.
I will leave the people to judge who is right, your thoughts ir the Bible.

 

[saved1975]

Please quote chaper and verse that says we will go to heaven, the reward of the saved is heaven or when we all meet in heaven.



He never says He is coming back to take us to heaven, He says he is coming back to the earth to rule...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Rev 5:10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."




Really, show me the scriptures that say we are going to heaven for the Wedding Feast.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."
Rev 19:8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Rev 19:9 Then he said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!' " And he said to me, "These are the true sayings of God."

I'll continue this in the next set of questions...



Again, where are the scriptures? Rev 19 shows that the Marriage Supper is connected with the return of Christ...

Rev 19:1 After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God!

After what things?

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

The seventh and last trump...

1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The return of Christ and the Marriage Supper has not yet happened but Christ has begun His reign on the earth...

Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her."
Rev 19:3 Again they said, "Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!"
Rev 19:4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, "Amen! Alleluia!"
Rev 19:5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying, "Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!"
Rev 19:6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, "Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns!

Now the Marriage Supper takes place at the return of Christ to the earth...

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."
Rev 19:8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Rev 19:9 Then he said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!' " And he said to me, "These are the true sayings of God."

And what happens?

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
Rev 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.

Christ makes judes and makes war with the Beast, the False Prophet and those who followed them...

Rev 19:12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
Rev 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
Rev 19:15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,
Rev 19:18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great."
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
Rev 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.





Since we never go to heaven, the Marriage Supper does not occur there. You have assumed many things that I suppose someone has told you (you didn't read it in the scriptures).

The resurrection occurs at the Last Trump when Christ returns, we meet Him in the air and come to earth with Him where He reigns as we have seen.



You have misquoted and read into the scriptures ideas that just are not there.

Jesus Christ does not do drive-bys. He will return once and for all.

I quote from scriptures and you quote from 1st imaginations.
Scriptures will always beat mans thoughts.

 

[PlainWord]

You obviously haven't read Rev 6: 17..
I give scriptures, And you give your own thoughts.
I will leave the people to judge who is right, your thoughts ir the Bible.

Actually I have read Revelation cover to cover more than 1,000 times. It is not a book easy to understand. I don't claim to even closely understand it. However, I do understand that it is a spiritual book and not to be taken entirely literally. I also understand that you should never suppose that you understand Revelation and go alter other passages in the Bible that are literal such as the Olivet Discourse.

Go back and read Mat 24:21-31. Jesus describes the starting point and ending point of the Great Tribulation. He also discusses one main event that happens in between and that is the Temptation of AntiChrist. Jesus does not say a word about His wrath during the Great Tribulation period. Instead, we have multiple passages that discuss the Lord's wrath as happening when He returns.

You are looking at Revelation as sequential events all happening literally. If you view Revelation in this light instead of in a spiritual and figurative light you will never sort it out. Again, I don't claim to have all the answers but I see the seals not as the wrath of the Lamb but rather Christ is just opening seals to a scroll. We then see what was written with each loosened seal. The seals appear to be describing events as man sees them. The trumpets appear to be spiritual. Satan is clearly behind Trumpet 5 as he is identified as such.

The Bowls seem to deal with God's wrath and we are told this. We are further told in Rev 18 that the bowls are to be poured out in double the measure. If you study the trumpets and bowls you will see that indeed the bowls contain twice the measure. In most cases this is clear.

It also appears that the seals stop at 6 then there is a break. The same with the trumpets. They seem to stop at 6. Then it appears at 7 Seal, 7 Trumpet and 7 Bowl Christ returns. You will see lightening, thunder, hail and earthquakes for each. Thunder is the Voice of God. But, I digress. My advice to you is forget about Revelation for now and focus on the teachings of Christ. You will see no Rapture lesson at all. Tackle Revelation once you sort this truth out because if you look at prophesy through the lens of Satan's Rapture lie you contort just about everything else to fit the lie.

 

[PlainWord]

Jesus warns:

23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Paul warns:

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed,

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,

10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Peter warns:

as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction

John warns:

12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."
7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast,

1. So we know the Devil is coming to deceive
2. We know Satan is coming to claim he is Christ
3. We know Satan wages war and defeats Saints
4. We are told Christ comes AFTER the Man of Sin is revealed
5. We are told Christ returns AFTER the Tribulation of those days
6. We are told Paul's teachings are hard to understand and that some will twist them

We have all these warnings and instructions. Many think, "Oh, these warnings aren't for me. I'm gonna be Raptured outa here. These warnings are for the new believers who come to Christ after the Rapture." So the warnings go unheeded. People don't watch like the 5 bridesmaids who didn't have enough oil.

There is only one doctrine that contradicts the above teachings and that's Pre-Trib Rapture.

We are told we will suffer persecution and tribulation. Rapture teaches, "no you won't."

We are told to be the salt and light. Rapture teaches during the biggest Satanic deception ever we are to be gone.

Again, we are warned what is going to happen so as NOT to be deceived. Rapture teaches ignore warnings and fly away.

Sure sounds like Satan's MO to me.

 

[john832]

I quote from scriptures and you quote from 1st imaginations.
Scriptures will always beat mans thoughts.

I am glad to know that John's writings in Revelation, and Paul's writings in I Corinthians and I Thessalonians are imaginations.

I would ay that pretty well sums up this conversation.