The reason for conflicting dogmas.

[louis]

As everyone here is probably aware, there probably aren't two people who agree totally on what everything is in reference to.
The reason for this according to Revelation 12:9 is that the Devil is currently deceiving the whole world. This includes you, me and everyone.
According to 2 Corinthians 11:14, how the devil deceives everyone (including the faithful currently), is by masquerading as true illumination from the Lord, when in reality Satan is providing us with false illumination, aka lies.
This is why we on this forum and other Christian forums have numerous conflicting opinions on what scriptures represent.
Those of us who study the Word sparsely will in all likelihood be those with the most misconceptions, who make excuses for conflicting scriptures that contradict their dogmas, while not realizing those excuses coming from the great deceiver.
On the other hand, those who study Gods Word more frequently and do not make excuses for scriptures that seem to conflict with their perspective of scripture are less deceived by Satan's false illumination.

Revelation 12:9 [FONT=&quot]And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.[/FONT]

2 Corinthians 11:14 [FONT=&quot]And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.[/FONT]

 

[dcontroversal]

We are not of the world and like Abraham we look for a city whose builder and maker is God.....no offence, but believers may be ignorant of some truth and or they have been taught wrong by ignorant men that do not study, but to say we are all deceived by the devil and lump us in with the world is ignorant.....!!

 

[Limey410v2]

As everyone here is probably aware, there probably aren't two people who agree totally on what everything is in reference to.
The reason for this according to Revelation 12:9 is that the Devil is currently deceiving the whole world. This includes you, me and everyone.
According to 2 Corinthians 11:14, how the devil deceives everyone (including the faithful currently), is by masquerading as true illumination from the Lord, when in reality Satan is providing us with false illumination, aka lies.
This is why we on this forum and other Christian forums have numerous conflicting opinions on what scriptures represent.
Those of us who study the Word sparsely will in all likelihood be those with the most misconceptions, who make excuses for conflicting scriptures that contradict their dogmas, while not realizing those excuses coming from the great deceiver.
On the other hand, those who study Gods Word more frequently and do not make excuses for scriptures that seem to conflict with their perspective of scripture are less deceived by Satan's false illumination.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

From most of my understanding of scripture most references to the "world" are those that have yet to be saved. Scripture tells us that we are no longer of this world when we become saved.

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

 

[Nehemiah6]

As everyone here is probably aware, there probably aren't two people who agree totally on what everything is in reference to.
The reason for this according to Revelation 12:9 is that the Devil is currently deceiving the whole world. This includes you, me and everyone.

This is not currently applicable.

This is why we on this forum and other Christian forums have numerous conflicting opinions on what scriptures represent. Those of us who study the Word sparsely will in all likelihood be those with the most misconceptions, who make excuses for conflicting scriptures that contradict their dogmas, while not realizing those excuses coming from the great deceiver. On the other hand, those who study Gods Word more frequently and do not make excuses for scriptures that seem to conflict with their perspective of scripture are less deceived by Satan's false illumination.

This is definitely applicable. Unless Christians STUDY the Word, they will not come to a knowledge of the truth.

Satan is behind all spiritual conflicts, and there is a battle raging for the hearts and minds of all people. However, when we wield the Sword of the Spirit, and rightly divide the Word of Truth, Satan has to flee, and the Holy Spirit takes control.

But Satan sabotaged the Reformation in two ways (a) the Reformers did not reject Catholic teaching in its totality and (b) the unrepentant Catholic clergy and Jesuits mounted a Counter Reformation.

Today, Satan is bringing apostasy into the evangelical and fundamentalist churches, thus creating more conflict among those who should be united in doctrine and worship.

 

[preacher4truth]

As everyone here is probably aware, there probably aren't two people who agree totally on what everything is in reference to.
The reason for this according to Revelation 12:9 is that the Devil is currently deceiving the whole world. This includes you, me and everyone.
According to 2 Corinthians 11:14, how the devil deceives everyone (including the faithful currently), is by masquerading as true illumination from the Lord, when in reality Satan is providing us with false illumination, aka lies.
This is why we on this forum and other Christian forums have numerous conflicting opinions on what scriptures represent.
Those of us who study the Word sparsely will in all likelihood be those with the most misconceptions, who make excuses for conflicting scriptures that contradict their dogmas, while not realizing those excuses coming from the great deceiver.
On the other hand, those who study Gods Word more frequently and do not make excuses for scriptures that seem to conflict with their perspective of scripture are less deceived by Satan's false illumination.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Louis,

Thanks for the post. We ought to be in the Word consistently and often so as to "so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes;" Ephesians 4:14.

Contextually, this is why we have pastors and teachers; Ephesians 4:11.

As we can see, humans play a major part in deceiving others with false doctrine. Even on forums we have those who are Judaizers, those with Hebrew Roots false doctrines, those maintaining salvation (so they teach) &c attempting, all of whom are attempting to impede our sole trust in Christ.

All cults share this same objective as well as all false teachers; the bottom line is they detract from Christ, detract and subtract his work, even though at the same time they say they are not doing this, it is exactly what they are teaching. Of course there are more cultic groups so no need to get exhaustive other than to point out the objective of all false teachers, that is, their "bottom line."

As far as Satan deceiving the whole world, yes I agree, yet, no, this does not mean each and every person who has lived, nor does it mean each and every person alive at that period. He will deceive the vast majority of persons in every nation across the globe. That is the meaning.

It appears impossible to deceive the elect; Matthew 24:24. So, that being said, contextually from your shared passage in Revelation, there will be some who are not deceived by him, that is, God's elect. He will always have and preserve his remnant.

God bless.

 

[louis]

We are not of the world and like Abraham we look for a city whose builder and maker is God.....no offence, but believers may be ignorant of some truth and or they have been taught wrong by ignorant men that do not study, but to say we are all deceived by the devil and lump us in with the world is ignorant.....!!

If there are two of us with conflicting perspectives, then either one of us is incorrect, or both of us are incorrect.
In my book this correlates with the Word of God in Revelation 12:9, in which the whole world is currently deceived by Satan.
There will, however, come a point when Satan is cast to the earth where he will no longer be able to accuse the faithful before God day and night (Revelation 12:10). This is when according to Jeremiah 31:34 we the faithful in Christ will all be of like mind, having Christs mind, knowing what is true and what is not true.

Revelation 12:10 [FONT=&quot]And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

[/FONT]Jeremiah 31:34 [FONT=&quot]And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot]: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot]: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.[/FONT]

 

[louis]

From most of my understanding of scripture most references to the "world" are those that have yet to be saved. Scripture tells us that we are no longer of this world when we become saved.

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

If your perspective of the whole world means only a limited amount of people, then the Lord is at best an incompetent author, unable to express a limited amount of people.
I prefer to give the Lord credit as the most capable of authors, and thereby meaning the whole world is currently deceived by Satan.
Where does 2 Corinthians 11:14 come into play when Paul was addressing the faithful? What need would there have been to tell them this if they were not being deceived, and were all of like?

 

[Limey410v2]

If your perspective of the whole world means only a limited amount of people, then the Lord is at best an incompetent author, unable to express a limited amount of people.
I prefer to give the Lord credit as the most capable of authors, and thereby meaning the whole world is currently deceived by Satan.
Where does 2 Corinthians 11:14 come into play when Paul was addressing the faithful? What need would there have been to tell them this if they were not being deceived, and were all of like?

Please explain to me the scripture I posted, in your viewpoint.

 

[louis]

This is not currently applicable.


This is definitely applicable. Unless Christians STUDY the Word, they will not come to a knowledge of the truth.

Satan is behind all spiritual conflicts, and there is a battle raging for the hearts and minds of all people. However, when we wield the Sword of the Spirit, and rightly divide the Word of Truth, Satan has to flee, and the Holy Spirit takes control.

But Satan sabotaged the Reformation in two ways (a) the Reformers did not reject Catholic teaching in its totality and (b) the unrepentant Catholic clergy and Jesuits mounted a Counter Reformation.

Today, Satan is bringing apostasy into the evangelical and fundamentalist churches, thus creating more conflict among those who should be united in doctrine and worship.

According to Hebrews 12:26-27 there will soon be a great shaking out so that those things made (false feigned faith) will be shaken out, thereby leaving those things that cannot be shaken (the truly faithful).

Hebrews 12:26 [FONT=&quot]Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.[/FONT]

 

[Limey410v2]

and I am not doubting that believers can be deceived, and I agree with your premise that it is beneficial to study Gods word and pray for His revelation.

 

[dcontroversal]

If there are two of us with conflicting perspectives, then either one of us is incorrect, or both of us are incorrect.
In my book this correlates with the Word of God in Revelation 12:9, in which the whole world is currently deceived by Satan.
There will, however, come a point when Satan is cast to the earth where he will no longer be able to accuse the faithful before God day and night (Revelation 12:10). This is when according to Jeremiah 31:34 we the faithful in Christ will all be of like mind, having Christs mind, knowing what is true and what is not true.

Revelation 12:10 [FONT=&quot]And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

[/FONT]Jeremiah 31:34 [FONT=&quot]And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot]: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot]: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.[/FONT]

No offence, but your book is wrong, being ignorant of something does not make one deceived...try again

 

[dcontroversal]

ignorant
ˈɪɡn(ə)r(ə)nt/Submit
adjective
1.
lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.
"he was told constantly that he was ignorant and stupid"
synonyms: uneducated, unknowledgeable, untaught, unschooled, untutored, untrained, illiterate, unlettered, unlearned, unread, uninformed, unenlightened, unscholarly, unqualified, benighted, backward

deceive
dɪˈsiːv/Submit
verb
past tense: deceived; past participle: deceived
deliberately cause (someone) to believe something that is not true, especially for personal gain.
"I didn't intend to deceive people into thinking it was French champagne"
synonyms: swindle, defraud, cheat, trick, hoodwink, hoax, dupe, take in, mislead, delude, fool, outwit, misguide, lead on, inveigle, seduce, ensnare, entrap, beguile, double-cross, gull; More
informalcon, bamboozle, do, sting, gyp, diddle, fiddle, swizzle, rip off, shaft, bilk, rook, pull a fast one on, pull someone's leg, take for a ride, pull the wool over someone's eyes, throw dust in someone's eyes, put one over on, sell a pup to, take to the cleaners;
informalsucker, snooker, stiff, euchre, bunco, hornswoggle;
informalpull a swifty on;
archaiccozen, sharp;
raremulct
"she had been deceived by a clever confidence trickster"

 

[louis]

Louis,

Thanks for the post. We ought to be in the Word consistently and often so as to "so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes;" Ephesians 4:14.

Contextually, this is why we have pastors and teachers; Ephesians 4:11.

As we can see, humans play a major part in deceiving others with false doctrine. Even on forums we have those who are Judaizers, those with Hebrew Roots false doctrines, those maintaining salvation (so they teach) &c attempting, all of whom are attempting to impede our sole trust in Christ.

All cults share this same objective as well as all false teachers; the bottom line is they detract from Christ, detract and subtract his work, even though at the same time they say they are not doing this, it is exactly what they are teaching. Of course there are more cultic groups so no need to get exhaustive other than to point out the objective of all false teachers, that is, their "bottom line."

As far as Satan deceiving the whole world, yes I agree, yet, no, this does not mean each and every person who has lived, nor does it mean each and every person alive at that period. He will deceive the vast majority of persons in every nation across the globe. That is the meaning.

It appears impossible to deceive the elect; Matthew 24:24. So, that being said, contextually from your shared passage in Revelation, there will be some who are not deceived by him, that is, God's elect. He will always have and preserve his remnant.

God bless.

I agree with you that the false Messiahs (like Hitler was to Germany) will not be able to deceive the elect.
Those false Messiahs and prophets, along with the beasts system are meant for the faithless world.
Satan will nevertheless through the beast contend/war with the saints, and shall overcome them for a while (Revelation 13:7).

God bless too, preacher for truth.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

 

[louis]

Please explain to me the scripture I posted, in your viewpoint.

You posted:
John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Our not being not of the world means our not being more carnally inclined over spiritually inclined, thus the world which is more carnally inclined than spiritually inclined hates the more spiritually inclined.
The spiritually inclined are less deceived by Satan than are the carnally inclined, but it does not mean they are currently exempt from the devils influence.

Was not Peter influenced/deceived by Satan when Peter was telling Jesus that He would not be crucified, to whom the Lord stated to Peter: "Get behind me Satan"? (Matthew 16:22-23)
Was not Peter deceived by Satan by separating himself from the brethren Greek Christians when the Jewish Christians were around? (Galatians 2:11-13)

Matthew 16:22 [FONT=&quot]Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Galatians 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.[/FONT]

 

[oldethennew]

you are expounding that 'everyone' is 'deceived' and then un-expounding that some are not!

have you read in Holy Scripture about the 'called-chosen-elect'?
if not, we recommend it...there's lots and lots about this subject, from the
mouth of God...

 

[louis]

and I am not doubting that believers can be deceived, and I agree with your premise that it is beneficial to study Gods word and pray for His revelation.

Very good.

2 Timothy 2:15 [FONT=&quot]Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.[/FONT]

 

[louis]

No offence, but your book is wrong, being ignorant of something does not make one deceived...try again

You are then making God at best to be an incompetent author, not being able to mean what He says when He states Satan deceiveth the whole world (up to when Revelation 12:9 transpires).

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

[louis]

deceive

deliberately cause (someone) to believe something that is not true,

We either are influenced by the unseen spiritual powers (both good and bad), or we are not influenced by these spiritual powers. I am one who believes everyone is influenced by these spiritual powers.
And in order for the bad spiritual powers to influence people, they need to make it attractive.
Satan and his angels do this by providing us false illumination (aka lies), as 2 Corinthians 11:14 indicates.
If you choose to interpret people having different opinions as simply being ignorant that may very well be, but in my book even that ignorant different opinion (illumination) would had to have originated from one of two sides, the truth, or lie.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

 

[Limey410v2]

You posted:
John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Our not being not of the world means our not being more carnally inclined over spiritually inclined, thus the world which is more carnally inclined than spiritually inclined hates the more spiritually inclined.
The spiritually inclined are less deceived by Satan than are the carnally inclined, but it does not mean they are currently exempt from the devils influence.

Was not Peter influenced/deceived by Satan when Peter was telling Jesus that He would not be crucified, to whom the Lord stated to Peter: "Get behind me Satan"? (Matthew 16:22-23)
Was not Peter deceived by Satan by separating himself from the brethren Greek Christians when the Jewish Christians were around? (Galatians 2:11-13)

Matthew 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Galatians 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

Being deceived and being part of the world are two different things my man. As a saved new creation you are not inclined, you are separated and placed apart from it.

You are either saved (separated from the world, part of God) or unsaved (part of the world, separated from God).

My problem is only with you lumping believers, saved by the Spirit of the living God, as part of the "world", when God clearly states that we are separate and not part of the world.


1John 4:4-5
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

He even calls us Royal priests, a Holy Nation, Gods very own possession in 1Peter 2:9.

That is not of this world.

 

[louis]

you are expounding that 'everyone' is 'deceived' and then un-expounding that some are not!

have you read in Holy Scripture about the 'called-chosen-elect'?
if not, we recommend it...there's lots and lots about this subject, from the
mouth of God...

As I have stated previously on this thread, I believe there will come a point when the saints will no longer be deceived by Satan (Revelation 12:10), at which time we will then all be of like mind in complete agreement of knowledge of the Lord (Jeremiah 31:34).

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.