The relationship between the Remission of Sins, the Blood of Jesus, and receiving the Holy Ghost

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KelbyofGod

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Oct 8, 2017
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U want to earn salvation

be my guest. I wont and can’t stop you

But just remember the jews tried that. They got shut down.
I've been thinking about your accusation suggesting I "want to earn salvation" both in the quoted post, again in post #136, and the follow-up questions of post#139.

What struck me this morning is that the accusation and follow-up questions of Post #139 aren't because you think I could teach you something about either baptism or OSAS doctrine... But were rather an attempt to shift focus away from the topic of "WHEN does a person receive the Holy Ghost" (which was the only topic we were debating up to that point) and to shift focus to some other topic because it was becoming evident that you were losing. (badly, I might add).

I didn't think it would be classified as a "Strawman" but then I looked up the definition. I liked this one best:
"strawman"
You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack.
By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable, but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine honest rational debate.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
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I've been thinking about your accusation suggesting I "want to earn salvation" both in the quoted post, again in post #136, and the follow-up questions of post#139.

What struck me this morning is that the accusation and follow-up questions of Post #139 aren't because you think I could teach you something about either baptism or OSAS doctrine... But were rather an attempt to shift focus away from the topic of "WHEN does a person receive the Holy Ghost" (which was the only topic we were debating up to that point) and to shift focus to some other topic because it was becoming evident that you were losing. (badly, I might add).

I didn't think it would be classified as a "Strawman" but then I looked up the definition. I liked this one best:
"strawman"
You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack.
By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable, but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine honest rational debate.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
You have just displayed an outstanding example of maturity. Duly noted. :D
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
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I hear you, but that dude doesn't understand the Power of God. When Jesus died, where did He go? What did He do? Right, He went to "prison" and spoke to the Saints. Our spirits aren't dead . . . only the body.

1 Samuel 28:11-16 NKJV - "Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" And he said, "Bring up Samuel for me." 12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, "Why have you deceived me? For you [are] Saul!" 13 And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth." 14 So he said to her, "What [is] his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he [is] covered with a mantle." And Saul perceived that it [was] Samuel, and he stooped with [his] face to the ground and bowed down. 15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do." 16 Then Samuel said: "So why do you ask me, seeing the LORD has departed from you and has become your enemy?"

Samuel was dead only in Body. The dead are always reachable by Christ. Christ can grant Faith to anyone he wants whether dead or alive. Also, I think I've shared the below passage on this thread three or four times, now. And as said before, it is a Keystone passage set:

Romans 3:25-26 NLT - "For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus."

The men and women of old were given the opportunity to believe in Jesus. They were dead, but still needed to be made Right with God.
David,
I've got 3 things on my heart to talk to you about. All will be said/asked/mentioned in respect, not argument. One is an outright compliment (this one). One is asking your help in an area that I've realized I'm strangely blind (the next one). And the last one is an "I think you recognize a particular error correctly, but are you able to see where you did it too? And can we go back to that moment and examine something more closely?". Again, all are sincere. None are flattery. Normally I'd address the last one first but I want to make it clear how much respect (not accusation or arrogancy) is involved in the asking. OK... Compliment time. :)

I REALLY appreciated this quoted posting. And I think it's important to understand why a compliment is given. So I want to share some backstory lest the compliment be construed as flattery or veiled mockery.

From what I see, Curry Blake is getting healing to FUNCTION more than 99% of "Christians" and even 99% of Christians. That counts for a LOT in my book. "For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power." - 1 Corinthians 4:20 KJV Curry Blake exhibits a doctrine of power. (BTW, that happens to be why Everlasting-Grace's doctrine was losing... plenty of word... but no power = not the kingdom of God. My last suggestion before the "strawman" was shedding light on that.) But back to Curry Blake.

So I give credit to Curry Blake as being somewhat of an expert in matters of healings. BUT... if you've read many of my posts you can see that I discourage blindly following ANYBODY. And something wasn't sitting right about Curry's claim that the dead cannot be contributing faith to their own healings "because they are dead".

I thought I knew what it was... but I hadn't been bold enough to PROCLAIM it the way you did. And THAT is why I appreciated your post. You said in bold statements what I'd only been considering internally. And seeing your boldness encouraged me to lay hold on the truth instead of just playing with it (for lack of better wording). I drew courage from your example. Similar to this account:

"And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear." - Philippians 1:14 KJV​

I might not agree with EVERYTHING you said, but you definitely shared some truth. Thank you.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
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You have just displayed an outstanding example of maturity. Duly noted. :D
Because of the "big grin" at the end, I'm not entirely sure how to take this post. Was my posting taken as an honest example of maturity? or was that being said sarcastically?

The reason I ask is because of that "strange blindness" mentioned earlier. I might call it "compliment blindness" in that some people, like myself, SophieT, and one of my bosses) have a hard time discerning whether a thing said to us is truly a compliment or rather is something else (like flattery, mockery or sarcasm) especially in type-written form. I'd give an example from my own past but that would take too long.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
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David,
I've got 3 things on my heart to talk to you about. All will be said/asked/mentioned in respect, not argument. One is an outright compliment (this one). One is asking your help in an area that I've realized I'm strangely blind (the next one). And the last one is an "I think you recognize a particular error correctly, but are you able to see where you did it too? And can we go back to that moment and examine something more closely?". Again, all are sincere. None are flattery. Normally I'd address the last one first but I want to make it clear how much respect (not accusation or arrogancy) is involved in the asking. OK... Compliment time. :)

I REALLY appreciated this quoted posting. And I think it's important to understand why a compliment is given. So I want to share some backstory lest the compliment be construed as flattery or veiled mockery.

From what I see, Curry Blake is getting healing to FUNCTION more than 99% of "Christians" and even 99% of Christians. That counts for a LOT in my book. "For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power." - 1 Corinthians 4:20 KJV Curry Blake exhibits a doctrine of power. (BTW, that happens to be why Everlasting-Grace's doctrine was losing... plenty of word... but no power = not the kingdom of God. My last suggestion before the "strawman" was shedding light on that.) But back to Curry Blake.

So I give credit to Curry Blake as being somewhat of an expert in matters of healings. BUT... if you've read many of my posts you can see that I discourage blindly following ANYBODY. And something wasn't sitting right about Curry's claim that the dead cannot be contributing faith to their own healings "because they are dead".

I thought I knew what it was... but I hadn't been bold enough to PROCLAIM it the way you did. And THAT is why I appreciated your post. You said in bold statements what I'd only been considering internally. And seeing your boldness encouraged me to lay hold on the truth instead of just playing with it (for lack of better wording). I drew courage from your example. Similar to this account:

"And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear." - Philippians 1:14 KJV​

I might not agree with EVERYTHING you said, but you definitely shared some truth. Thank you.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Kelby,

I appreciate your thoughts and words on flattery. Flattery is something I used to be guilty of until I was called on the carpet regarding that matter. I used to really, really be over-the-top in my kind words, and then they caught up with me. My “flattery” was getting me in trouble at work and I had at least two men become angry with me regarding my treatment toward their 1) girlfriend, and 2) wife. The man with the girlfriend was so angry he became violent towards me . . . I could have had him arrested. What was more impactful than this young man’s violent outbreak, were his words. He told me that I was “creepy.” And while I didn’t appreciate his brave attitude toward me at the time, I am very thankful today. I am thankful that people are brave enough to say things, even if they are from the point of misunderstanding. I listen to all words of criticism from everyone . . . including those here, who belittle and berate me each day. I am thankful for all of it.

Therefore, I am proud of you (I sense you are much younger than I, hence my “pride”), for it seems that you are on a great path in this Christian life. Keep Asking! Keep Seeking! Keep Knocking! (Note the all-caps – Asking, Seeking, and Knocking are most Holy, Holy Words.)

Kelby, I do not write this with pride, as most will falsely judge my heart (for), but I have felt the Raw, Almighty Power of God to the degree that if I had felt even a little bit more, I could have died. I can assure you that no human flesh can stand before the Raw Presence of God and live. What is said about this in the Old Testament is absolutely correct; it should never be underestimated. When a person takes upon him or herself this incredible Power, they instinctively know things. We can’t help it. We do not become special in any way, nor are we better than anyone else. We just KNOW things that others do not know and cannot know. This Almighty Experience that had been given to me is both a Blessing and a curse. It is a Blessing because to experience the Terror of the Lord, only to be rescued by the Holy Spirit, resulting in a measurable Indwelling of the Holy Spirit . . . there is nothing greater that I could ever hope to experience in this Satanic world. However, my experience, that which produces the Boldness that you have expressed, it is a curse, for as soon as I began to tell my family and friends of this Holy Experience, they all began to hate me. All had abandoned me. There was a period of about 3 years when I had no one to call as I was undergoing the most incredible persecution. I would literally say out loud as I reached for my phone, “Is there really no one for me to call?” Sure enough, I would search my phone and there was no one for me to call. I was completely alone in this world. Worse than being jailed or imprisoned, I was in the free world, yet 100% alone. It was the most unbelievable feeling. Fortunately, four of my past relationships are in the process of being restored, and wow, does it feel good!

So, my Experience is a curse, but I cannot deny my boldness. To repress it would be to literally repress our Powerful, Almighty God . . . and I simply cannot, nor am I able, to be a part of any of that.

I want to share with you this: My experience was so profound, I found it to be of the utmost importance to “get to know” our amazing Bible. During my incredible time of suffering and being “imprisoned’ within the free world, God afforded me the opportunity to study His Holy Word up to 18 hours per day. Most people cannot do that, and so while I was ever so isolated, little did I know that this God-produced isolation was allowing me to study His Word in a most unique way. Using my former Microsoft background, I began collecting, organizing, and cataloging His Word into an Excel Spreadsheet. This way, I could organize His Word by categories, sub-categories, sub-sub-categories. Even then I found even deeper ways to further sub-categorize His Holy Word. I don’t believe that the Lord had me do these things because I am smart, but because I am not the smartest. Without putting His Word into a sortable and filterable Spreadsheet, I simply wouldn’t be able to remember much. I created one column specifically for my own commentary, so that as I would need to find that passage later on in a simple search, by using my own words, I would know exactly how to find virtually any passage that I had logged and recorded. Incredibly, I realized that I was developing my own written commentary on the entire Bible.

I do not write one word of this message to impress you, for I am an unimpressive person. Virtually no one finds credulity within me, within this world. I am despised. However, I write this message to encourage you to do the same thing, if you are able. I sense that God has Cleansed and Purified your Heart . . . you have a different “spirit” within you. You are gentle, kind, and seem to be Empathic. If you are able, give as much of your time to studying . . . and I don’t mean reading commentary. Get yourself a timeline, chronological order for which to read the entire Bible, and learn the story of God’s Word (if you don’t know it already). Do not study commentary, but do your best to learn only of God’s written word . . . not man’s interpretation of it. Read from as many different translations as you are able . . . they all possess the exact same core message. Don’t worry about the little things that virtually everyone here likes to ramble on and on and on about, but figure out the True Mysterious Plan of God.

The below three passage sets, if read before each daily reading, will slowly begin to put the entire Word of God into proper and full perspective:

Ephesians 3:1-13

Ephesians 2:10-16

Colossians 2:9-15

Read them in that order, and then begin your daily studies. Even though Paul unpacks the Mysterious Plan of God for us, he still keeps it hidden for the True Saints. I am only further unpacking the things that he said, but to the next, more simplistic level. I believe in you. I believe that you will come to know what that full Mysterious Plan of God actually is.

May the Lord grant you the most incredible of Blessings!

Triangle Of Truth.png
 

2ndTimothyGroup

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Feb 20, 2021
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Because of the "big grin" at the end, I'm not entirely sure how to take this post. Was my posting taken as an honest example of maturity? or was that being said sarcastically?

The reason I ask is because of that "strange blindness" mentioned earlier. I might call it "compliment blindness" in that some people, like myself, SophieT, and one of my bosses) have a hard time discerning whether a thing said to us is truly a compliment or rather is something else (like flattery, mockery or sarcasm) especially in type-written form. I'd give an example from my own past but that would take too long.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
No, Kelby. You made yourself an example for me to follow. I Love the way and manner in which you conduct yourself, here. Again, you are a wonderful example for me to follow. I admire you.
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
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@2ndTimothyGroup
Thanks for the replies. I'll have to post that 3rd thing later. I've run out of time for the moment.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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I've been thinking about your accusation suggesting I "want to earn salvation" both in the quoted post, again in post #136, and the follow-up questions of post#139.

What struck me this morning is that the accusation and follow-up questions of Post #139 aren't because you think I could teach you something about either baptism or OSAS doctrine... But were rather an attempt to shift focus away from the topic of "WHEN does a person receive the Holy Ghost" (which was the only topic we were debating up to that point) and to shift focus to some other topic because it was becoming evident that you were losing. (badly, I might add).

I didn't think it would be classified as a "Strawman" but then I looked up the definition. I liked this one best:
"strawman"
You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack.
By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable, but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine honest rational debate.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
I just stated what I saw.

Someone who is trying to gain salvation by performing a work of righteousness.

As for when someone received the spirit. If you have not recieved the spirit your not saved. We have discussed that in the early church things happened differently. This new covenant was trying to go into people who were deep into the old covenant, It was also trying to go the the gentiles and saying it was a Jewish religion. (because it was) so just like when Jesus used signs and wonders. the church in the beginning used signs and wonders to prove their gospel was from God. so it does not suppose me any.

Paul said after we hear the word of truth we are sealed with the spirit who is our pledge. without the seal of the spirit. there is no salvation.

The bible also says that without our sins being washed in the blood. there is no forgiveness. sp how can one be saved wihtout the work of the spirit? they can't

As for a straw man. I am sorry you feel that way. I am not trying to be rude. although I did get testy, forgive me.
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
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I just stated what I saw.

Someone who is trying to gain salvation by performing a work of righteousness.

As for when someone received the spirit. If you have not recieved the spirit your not saved. We have discussed that in the early church things happened differently. This new covenant was trying to go into people who were deep into the old covenant, It was also trying to go the the gentiles and saying it was a Jewish religion. (because it was) so just like when Jesus used signs and wonders. the church in the beginning used signs and wonders to prove their gospel was from God. so it does not suppose me any.

Paul said after we hear the word of truth we are sealed with the spirit who is our pledge. without the seal of the spirit. there is no salvation.

The bible also says that without our sins being washed in the blood. there is no forgiveness. sp how can one be saved wihtout the work of the spirit? they can't

As for a straw man. I am sorry you feel that way. I am not trying to be rude. although I did get testy, forgive me.
EG,
All is forgiven... and I ask likewise. It's easy to get testy or defensive when discussing an important topic with someone we've just met (because we are naturally on guard). And we definitely are discussing an important topic(s). The way I've learned to get past that defensiveness is to simply let my guard down and speak as a friend. So as speaking to a friend, I'll share something:

1. I've noticed that the more a person uses the term "saved" while talking about what constitutes salvation (aka. "what the components might be") the less likely it is that they will be able to discuss any particular component in depth or in isolation.​

2. It's something along the lines of "Not being able to see the trees for the forest" (rather than the other way around).​

3. I propose that is part of the reason you invoked a "strawman".​

That was a LOT to put into three sentences. So before I attempt to explain what I mean, let me stop there and ask "What are your first thoughts are as you read each sentence?". Thanks

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

KelbyofGod

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Oct 8, 2017
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is there any relationship to repentance and baptism for repentance and remission of sins ?

I would say hear , believe , act based on the belief for instance the saving of souls comes through hearing the gospel, believing and then acting upon the knowledge we have heard and believed like this

“This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:32-33, 36-39, 41, 46-47‬ ‭KJV‬‬


faith is to hear , believe and act in that belief or in other words “faith without works is dead “ or “incomplete”

see how they heard Peter preaching the gospeL and it hit them in the heart because they believed what he was saying about Jesus ? Then how they asked what do we do ? Then Peter says repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for remission of sins ?

then notice they actually did believe because they acted and we’re saved into the body ? Hear , believe , act

“Noah the word is going to flood build an ark like I tell you and you’ll be saved “ Noah believed so Noah acted in that belief

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

All Noah did was believe what God was telling him his reaction was from belief of course if he believed there was a flood coming and he was instructed to build the work and be saved if he believed it the action is a result

and so Christians have been warned of God also and been instructed on how to be saved also like Noah by living faith

There’s fire coming but salvation is hear

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if God told us believe and get baptized in the name of Jesus for remission of sins and we believe that the rest is part of it receiving the Holy Ghost is to receive the gospel and believe it’s a goft from that process but no where in scripture are we ever told receiving the Holy Ghost remits our sins

but we are taught a clear doctrine that believing the gospel and getting baptized for repentance and remission of sins is a promise from God to remit our sins according only to his word and not the worlds doctrines explaining different ways and paths
@Pilgrimshope ,

I think you did a great job of explaining the relationship between belief and action (as part of belief, not in replacement of it) and how being baptized (the action we take as part of that promise) is done in belief that God is able to fulfill His part of that promise (the remission of sins).

Also, I wonder if there were some in Noah's day who claimed Noah was trying to "earn his salvation by works" when they saw Noah building the ark by faith.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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EG,
All is forgiven... and I ask likewise. It's easy to get testy or defensive when discussing an important topic with someone we've just met (because we are naturally on guard). And we definitely are discussing an important topic(s). The way I've learned to get past that defensiveness is to simply let my guard down and speak as a friend. So as speaking to a friend, I'll share something:

1. I've noticed that the more a person uses the term "saved" while talking about what constitutes salvation (aka. "what the components might be") the less likely it is that they will be able to discuss any particular component in depth or in isolation.​
When I see the word saved. I think of the actual greek word, sozo which means to be saved, to be rescued, to save from death, to keep alive. In this form, of the word. anytime I see the word. I look at it we have been rescued or saved from death.​
the question then is, how or what rescues us or saves us from death (eternal death) when I see the word. this is what I think of.​
think of it this way. We are saved, redeemed, justified, from the penalty of sin, the curse of the law. the curse of death. from hell​
some people want to talk about ongoing christian growth and the power of sin. But when it comes to salvation in our discussions. to me those are the results of being saved, redeemed, justified, baptized and anointed anointed with the spirit, not the act of being saved.​

2. It's something along the lines of "Not being able to see the trees for the forest" (rather than the other way around).
not quite shure what you are getting at here​
3. I propose that is part of the reason you invoked a "strawman".​
In my view. people who are trying to be saved, ot get saved by good works no matter what works they are saying are required. are teaching we are justified, redeemed, rescued from the penalty of sin etc etc by works. As paul said, if it is of grace it is no longer works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. So in my perspective of what salvation is and how it is obtained or received. It is what I see. that is not a strawman. it is just what I see. Again. forgive me if you took it that way.


That was a LOT to put into three sentences. So before I attempt to explain what I mean, let me stop there and ask "What are your first thoughts are as you read each sentence?". Thanks

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
hope my response helps
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
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I was Powerfully Indwelt by the Holy Spirit several years ago to the degree that the Power of God was so Peaceful and Loving, it would have killed me if the Lord had allowed me to feel more of His Almighty Presence. I know for a fact that water doesn't save anyone. Thus, a person can be saved in the middle of the dryest desert, or on the side of Mt Everest where a dunking isn't possible, and a person can be saved minutes before they die (again, no water baptism).

Believe me, I understand Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I wish that all had the Spirit placed upon them as has been placed upon me.

Numbers 11:29 NLT - "But Moses replied, "Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the LORD's people were prophets and that the LORD would put his Spirit upon them all!"

Most people haven't a clue as to the depth of what Moses was saying . . . I do. I have felt the Power that parted seas and separated the Jordan River. I have felt the Power that can raise the dead. I have felt the Power of the One who created all that is.
The third thing I wanted to mention (for further examination) is this quoted post #169 which answered my post #167 along a string that was exclusively discussing the purpose and stated effect of WATER baptism...but you suddenly switched topic to SPIRIT experience. There was no following attack but it was just as sudden of a switch as what Everlasting-Grace did from the topic of "WHEN someone receives the Holy Ghost (to WATER and OSAS.) Have you considered why you felt the need to switch away from the topic of the results of water baptism at that particular point?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
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When I see the word saved. I think of the actual greek word, sozo which means to be saved, to be rescued, to save from death, to keep alive. In this form, of the word. anytime I see the word. I look at it we have been rescued or saved from death.​
the question then is, how or what rescues us or saves us from death (eternal death) when I see the word. this is what I think of.​
think of it this way. We are saved, redeemed, justified, from the penalty of sin, the curse of the law. the curse of death. from hell​
some people want to talk about ongoing christian growth and the power of sin. But when it comes to salvation in our discussions. to me those are the results of being saved, redeemed, justified, baptized and anointed anointed with the spirit, not the act of being saved.​
not quite shure what you are getting at here​

In my view. people who are trying to be saved, ot get saved by good works no matter what works they are saying are required. are teaching we are justified, redeemed, rescued from the penalty of sin etc etc by works. As paul said, if it is of grace it is no longer works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. So in my perspective of what salvation is and how it is obtained or received. It is what I see. that is not a strawman. it is just what I see. Again. forgive me if you took it that way.

hope my response helps
Thanks for the reply. The aspect of friendliness shows through in your post. I'll try to reply on the topics soon but wanted to thank you for the post without delay.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

2ndTimothyGroup

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Feb 20, 2021
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The third thing I wanted to mention (for further examination) is this quoted post #169 which answered my post #167 along a string that was exclusively discussing the purpose and stated effect of WATER baptism...but you suddenly switched topic to SPIRIT experience. There was no following attack but it was just as sudden of a switch as what Everlasting-Grace did from the topic of "WHEN someone receives the Holy Ghost (to WATER and OSAS.) Have you considered why you felt the need to switch away from the topic of the results of water baptism at that particular point?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Because, in post #164 I was establishing the point that water is simply water, asserting that what Purifies is something other than water. However, you seemed bent on disregarding what I wrote. Therefore, I didn't "suddenly switch topic to SPIRIT experience."

And so the psychological merry-go-round just continues to swirl . . . and swirl . . . and swirl . . . and swirl.
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
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Because, in post #164 I was establishing the point that water is simply water, asserting that what Purifies is something other than water. However, you seemed bent on disregarding what I wrote. Therefore, I didn't "suddenly switch topic to SPIRIT experience."

And so the psychological merry-go-round just continues to swirl . . . and swirl . . . and swirl . . . and swirl.
Ah. That makes sense. From my perspective it was a sudden switch but from yours it was "Hey Kelby, try to keep up"? :)
 

2ndTimothyGroup

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Feb 20, 2021
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Ah. That makes sense. From my perspective it was a sudden switch but from yours it was "Hey Kelby, try to keep up"? :)
I don't know. I guess I just find all of this back and forth as a bit of a nightmare. I get burnt out on it when simple dialog is made difficult. These forums make it seem as though christians need a four-year collegiate degree to communicate.
 

Pilgrimshope

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@Pilgrimshope ,

I think you did a great job of explaining the relationship between belief and action (as part of belief, not in replacement of it) and how being baptized (the action we take as part of that promise) is done in belief that God is able to fulfill His part of that promise (the remission of sins).

Also, I wonder if there were some in Noah's day who claimed Noah was trying to "earn his salvation by works" when they saw Noah building the ark by faith.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
I think that when someone is doing what God said many many others are going to scoff many different ways .I’m sure they were making fun of Noah , I’m sure there were some claiming Noah was self righteous ect that’s how it is in this world

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The world is going to always try any means necassary to get a person to believe they don’t need to actually obey what God said will save them.

Even if thier argument becomes “ your trying to earn salvstion by your own works “

reality is the person heard Jesus say what they need to do to save them d they believe it the reaction of belief is to act in that belief

you said it very well there better than I can I have a hard time simplifying things I’m trying to say

I like how you put it there “ we believe and act based on our trust that he will do exactly what he promised “ so the important part is to hear the truth and believe it’s true the actions are always going to flow from what the in our hearts

baptism is only important and only applies because God said it does.

now one thing I do want to say is Jesus never said “ if you believe the gospel , but you don’t get baptized , your lost “

he said “ anyone who believes the gospel and is baptized shall be saved “


To me that’s not the same as saying God will condemn us on a technicality but some people only don’t know what baptism is for ot the promise it provides because no one had ever explained it or shown them the scriptures mankind it so clear

God doesn’t condemn us for what we don’t understand but we condemn our own selves when we hear his word and reject its truth and authority over us.

we’re all on my own opinion a work in progress no matter how long we’ve been in Christ some folks know a lot of what he said others know little what matters is we walk by the knowledge we do have

God bless kelby , it’s definitely not that we earn anything it’s just that we believe and so we act in that belief and have that promise. There’s always a promise with his instructions belief is enough to save if it is in the right place
 

Wansvic

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I think that when someone is doing what God said many many others are going to scoff many different ways .I’m sure they were making fun of Noah , I’m sure there were some claiming Noah was self righteous ect that’s how it is in this world

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The world is going to always try any means necassary to get a person to believe they don’t need to actually obey what God said will save them.

Even if thier argument becomes “ your trying to earn salvstion by your own works “

reality is the person heard Jesus say what they need to do to save them d they believe it the reaction of belief is to act in that belief

you said it very well there better than I can I have a hard time simplifying things I’m trying to say

I like how you put it there “ we believe and act based on our trust that he will do exactly what he promised “ so the important part is to hear the truth and believe it’s true the actions are always going to flow from what the in our hearts

baptism is only important and only applies because God said it does.

now one thing I do want to say is Jesus never said “ if you believe the gospel , but you don’t get baptized , your lost “

he said “ anyone who believes the gospel and is baptized shall be saved “


To me that’s not the same as saying God will condemn us on a technicality but some people only don’t know what baptism is for ot the promise it provides because no one had ever explained it or shown them the scriptures mankind it so clear

God doesn’t condemn us for what we don’t understand but we condemn our own selves when we hear his word and reject its truth and authority over us.

we’re all on my own opinion a work in progress no matter how long we’ve been in Christ some folks know a lot of what he said others know little what matters is we walk by the knowledge we do have

God bless kelby , it’s definitely not that we earn anything it’s just that we believe and so we act in that belief and have that promise. There’s always a promise with his instructions belief is enough to save if it is in the right place
I would like to point out something that sheds additional light on what Jesus actually said in Mark 16:16. Jesus said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. Water baptism is actually part of the gospel message that people are required to believe. (Acts 2:30-41) A person who believes the entire gospel message will submit to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. And, as Jesus said those who believe and obey will be saved. Those who do not believe are damned.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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I would like to point out something that sheds additional light on what Jesus actually said in Mark 16:16. Jesus said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. Water baptism is actually part of the gospel message that people are required to believe. (Acts 2:30-41) A person who believes the entire gospel message will submit to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. And, as Jesus said those who believe and obey will be saved. Those who do not believe are damned.
yeah I agree it’s an important part of the gospel and applies as it says it does we do it for remission of sins because we believe what is said about it

what I’m saying is ot of folks don’t know anything about it and when you know is when you become accountable we aren’t all going to be judged by what the other people know but what we ourselves know

“And that servant, which knew his Lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:47-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if you don’t know something God isn’t going to hold you to account

“Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God knows what you know and that’s your own standard . Some folks are raised up believing but they are taught erroneous doctrine like “ water baptism isn’t necassary “

if you have a child d you haven’t explained the rule to the child it is not just to punish them for violating the rule is what I’m saying

water baptism is applicable and needed for remission of sins , but in Christ ignorance if it’s actually something they down understand is an excuse . We can’t lie to God mince we hear about baptism and believe of course we’re going to go have our sins remitted with joy we’ll jump onto the river

but if we have been taught it’s not for us it’s not the same as rebellion itself coming from lack of knowledge and God will work all that out it’s not for you or I to judge others but we need to walk by the truth we have been given

I myself was baptized because I believed what the gospel declares about baptism in his name d what I received from it was Gods pledge from his own promise that I had now done what he said will remit my sin . It’s an act of faith but if I hadn’t known what it was for I probably wouldn’t have made it a point to do me wouldn’t have had the pledge of my sins being remitted

if we do what God said we can rest in assurance that he will keep his end of the promise baptism shouldn’t even be a question but the truth is many people don’t have a clue what baptism is for or that he promises to remit sin based on our act of faith regarding baptism

it’s only when I know something and refuse to do it that I become guilty

“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”
‭‭James‬ ‭4:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

doctrine matters because believers trust and accept when thier pastor gets up to speak they take it as Gods word but often the eh aren’t being taught the truth about many things such as baptism

it’s best to just share what’s there and let God do the convicting
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
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you said it very well there better than I can I have a hard time simplifying things I’m trying to say

I like how you put it there “ we believe and act based on our trust that he will do exactly what he promised “ so the important part is to hear the truth and believe it’s true the actions are always going to flow from what the in our hearts

baptism is only important and only applies because God said it does.
Hi @Pilgrimshope ,
I only quoted those three sections because they are together in the text, and they summarize what I was thinking.

1. As for the ability to summarize deep things in a few straightforward sentences...: Please understand that particular ability does not come naturally. There's a lot of prayer that happens before these posts are written, because I used to be overly wordy and imprecise. "To be concise in Truth" is something I sincerely and earnestly prayed. Now I more regularly am able to post accordingly. But also don't think that I just sit down and type out exactly what you see.
Sometimes I spend 1-3 hours writing a post, trying to get what's in my heart out onto the screen...and (as was the case with the original posting of this thread) once I've got it down to a page (or two) God will basically show me what the basic point is and then I need to scrap the whole thing for the few sentences he gave me. That's EXACTLY what happened with Post #1 of this thread. It takes a bit of humbling one's self to scrap 2-3 hours of work and write the final version in about 5 minutes. But as you can tell, it's actually worth it.
2. As for the statement you liked. It was indeed just a summary of what you were already saying quite well.
3. As for your statement "Baptism is only important and only applies because God said it does." That is a profound statement. Of a truth, it is NOT MAN that said water baptism is a "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins". It was GOD who caused that to be stated... directly... in his word,... and at the mouth of two or three witnesses (Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3, Acts 2:38) that every word may be established. And yet man has the audacity to call that "a gospel of works".

"He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. [7] Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. [8] For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. [9] And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition." - Mark 7:6-9 KJV​

Love in Jesus,
Kelby