the Sabbath

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Status
Not open for further replies.

rrcn

Active member
Oct 15, 2023
566
178
43
I encourage all of you Saturday fanatics to repent and believe the gospel
It is the gospel of Jesus spanning all time from before the creation of the earth.

[Rev 13:8 KJV] 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
[Eph 1:4 KJV] 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[Tit 1:2 KJV] 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
[1Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
 

MeowFlower

Well-known member
Aug 25, 2024
883
406
63
youtube.com
This is really what it's about. There's absolutely no other reason to be so fixated on a day of the week other than idolatry. Christ saves through his gospel, but we never hear Saturday fanatics talk about it because they really don't understand it. They give lip service to Christ, but act like a weekly 24-hour period is their savior with all of the inordinate focus they put on it. It's unreal.

View attachment 270817
That is some low level graphic hatred right there.

You haven't learned a thing. @rogerg and other sisters and brothers targeted by anti-Sabbath hatets,pay attention.

You'll never reach those God hardens. See their other hate graphic too.

Sad.
 
Nov 1, 2024
1,143
372
83
That is some low level graphic hatred right there.
I do hate what you believe because it's contrary to the gospel. How many times do I have to tell you and your Saturday fanatic friends that I am not anti-sabbath; I am anti-sabbath-is-a-salvation-issue. I used to attend a messianic congregation on Friday evenings and they did so for cultural reasons, not a salvific one. So I do understand quite well that you and the others who insist sabbaths are a salvation issue are quite lost in the weeds and have no business teaching anyone.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
869
106
43
I do hate what you believe because it's contrary to the gospel. How many times do I have to tell you and your Saturday fanatic friends that I am not anti-sabbath; I am anti-sabbath-is-a-salvation-issue. I used to attend a messianic congregation on Friday evenings and they did so for cultural reasons, not a salvific one. So I do understand quite well that you and the others who insist sabbaths are a salvation issue are quite lost in the weeds and have no business teaching anyone.
Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3-4), so while obeying God's law has nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation as the result, Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it. For example, keeping the Sabbath holy is intrinsically part of being saved from not keeping the Sabbath holy.
 
Nov 1, 2024
1,143
372
83
keeping the Sabbath holy is intrinsically part of being saved from not keeping the Sabbath holy.
lol you folks certainly are adept at weaving words together to cast a spell of confusion on peoples' minds. So keeping the sabbath holy saves us from not keeping the sabbath holy. Do you not realize how ridiculous that is?
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
1,318
113
Australia
Here is a harder question for you to answer.

You incorrectly understood what Paul was saying in chapter two.

So now you can interpret the paragraph and tell me what Paul is saying.

Romans 11:24
For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted
into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into
their own olive tree?

Given that genetic lineage is nullified

Who are the natural branches?
Paul identifies the difference.
Jews are a nation of people and he was a jew, Gentiles were from other nations..
But Paul clearly states that this physical difference does not stop anyone from being one in Christ.
We can all be grafted in. Both are part of the same tree.

Rom 12:5 KJV So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
869
106
43
lol you folks certainly are adept at weaving words together to cast a spell of confusion on peoples' minds. So keeping the sabbath holy saves us from not keeping the sabbath holy. Do you not realize how ridiculous that is?
It is completely straightforward that Jesus saves us from not obeying God's law by graciously teaching us to obey it. What is ridiculous about that? In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is intrinsically His gift of saving us from not being a doer of those works.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
1,737
441
83
Because the NT does not affirm the Sabbath Law as it did the moral commands in the Ten Commandments, one needs to discern the correct doctrine for Christians by considering the following Scriptures.

1. God rested from His work and rested on the seventh day and made it holy per GN 2:2-3.

2. Moses promulgated the Sabbath law as the 4th of the Ten Commandments in EX 20:8-11, cf. LV 19:3&30, DT 5:12-15.

3. Solomon builds a temple for burnt offerings on the Sabbath in 2CHR 2:4.

4. Isaiah said those are blessed who keep the Sabbath in IS 56:2-6.

5. Jeremiah commands keeping the Sabbath holy in JR 17:21-27.

6. Ezekiel referred to the Sabbaths in 20:12

7. Jesus declared he is Lord of the Sabbath and it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath in MT 12:1-12.

8. Jesus healed a crippled woman on the Sabbath in LK 13:10-16.

If Jesus thought keeping the Sabbath was an important law, he would have affirmed it on these two occasions, but he did not specifically nullify it either, which jibes/harmonizes perfectly with Paul.

9. Paul taught that a person may rest on the Sabbath or not in CL 2:16, GL 4:9-11 & RM 14:5.

10. HB 3:7-4:11 encourages Christians to enter God’s Sabbath rest or salvation by persevering faith in Christ.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,587
13,857
113
Sabbath observance is a salvation issue, God blessed it & sanctified it.
God blessing and sanctifying the seventh day does not make Sabbath observance a salvation issue. Salvation is based on faith in Christ's atoning death... PERIOD. Reject that and you're damned, and no amount of Sabbath observance will save you.

The Sabbath rest was made for man so that God could spend time with his people.
You make it sound like God is limited. He's not; we are. The Sabbath was made for man so man could rest from his labours and spend time with God.

In Christ, we can spend time with God at any time, on any day of the week. We rest completely in Him because "It is finished".
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,587
13,857
113
It is completely straightforward that Jesus saves us from not obeying God's law by graciously teaching us to obey it. What is ridiculous about that?
That is ridiculous because it is circular.

In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is intrinsically His gift of saving us from not being a doer of those works.
You misread Paul badly, perhaps because you don't understand how English grammar and punctuation work.

"For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us...". (NIV)

Neither here nor in any major English translation could I find the concept that salvation is "described as being trained...". On the contrary, the grace of God is the subject in this paragraph! The grace of God brings salvation, and the grace of God teaches us. Salvation is not "being trained"; it is redemption from sin and from the wages of sin. Learning what sin is and how to avoid it is good, but secondary. Further, our avoidance of sin is not merely based on information (training) but on the leading of the Holy Spirit and His work within us to change our core motivation away from self and sin towards loving God and loving others.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
869
106
43
Because the NT does not affirm the Sabbath Law as it did the moral commands in the Ten Commandments, one needs to discern the correct doctrine for Christians by considering the following Scriptures.
The NT speaks against sin, sin is the the transgression of God's law, and God's law commands to keep the Sabbath holy. Jesus taught to keep the Sabbath holy both through his interactions with the Pharisees on the topic and by example. In 1 Peter 1:16, we are instructed to be holy for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to do that, which straightforwardly includes keeping God's Sabbaths holy (Leviticus 19:2-3). In Acts 15:21, the expectation was that Gentiles would hearing Moses taught every Sabbath in the synagogues.

If Jesus thought keeping the Sabbath was an important law, he would have affirmed it on these two occasions, but he did not specifically nullify it either, which jibes/harmonizes perfectly with Paul.
It has always been lawful to do good on the Sabbath, so the issue was not about keeping the Sabbath or not, but about priority. While God commanded His children to rest on the Sabbath he also commanded priests to rest on the Sabbath, however, it was not the case that priests were forced to sin by disobeying one of the two commands no matter what they chose to do but that the lesser command was never intended to be understood as preventing the greater command from being obeyed. This is why Jesus said in Matthew 12:5-7 that priests who did their duties on the Sabbath were held innocent, which David and his men were innocent, and why he defended his disciples as being innocent.

Some Pharisees had reasoned that it is unlawful to work on the Sabbath and that healing is work, therefore it is unlawful to heal on the Sabbath. However, we are also instructed to love our neighbor as ourselves, it would not be loving our neighbor to refuse to heal them, and no command was intended to be understood as preventing us from obeying the greatest two commandments, which is why it was lawful for Jesus to heal on the Sabbath.

Likewise, there is the issue of being permitted to bear false witness in order preserve someone's life, which does not mean that the command against bearing false witness is not important.

9. Paul taught that a person may rest on the Sabbath or not in CL 2:16,
That verse leaves room for two scenarios:

1.) The Colossians were not keeping God's feasts, they were being judged by Jews because they were not, and Paul was encouraging them not to let anyone judge them for not keeping them.

2.) The Colossians were keeping God's feasts, they were being judged by pagans because they were keeping them, and Paul was encouraging them not to let anyone judge them for keeping them.

In Colossians 2:16-23, Paul described the people who were judging the Colossians was promoting human teachings and precepts, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, which means that they were being judged by pagans that that the second scenario is the case. Those promoting asceticism and severity to the body would be judging people for celebrating feasts, not for refraining from doing that.

GL 4:9-11
In Galatians 4:8-11, Paul addressed those verses to those who formerly did not know God who were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods, which again is describing former pagans. As such, they were not formerly following God's law for how to know Him and Paul could not have been criticizing them for returning to obeying it, so the days that they were returning to was within the context of paganism. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, so those who formerly did not know God again does not refer to those who were formerly obeying God's law.

& RM 14:5.
In Romans 14:1, the topic of the chapter is in regard to how to handle disputable matters of opinion in which God has given no command, not in regard to whether followers of God should follow God, so nothing in the chapter should be interpreted as speaking against following God. For example, in Romans 14:2-3, they were judging and resenting each other based on whether or not someone chose to eat only vegetables even though God gave no command to do that.

In Romans 14:4-6, Paul spoke about those who ate or refrained from eating unto the Lord, so he was speaking about those who esteemed certain days for fasting as a disputable matter of opinion. For example, it had become a common practice in the 1st century for people to fast twice a week and people were judging and resenting each other based on whether or not someone chose to do that even though God gave no command to do that (Luke 18:12). Paul was not suggesting that we are free to rebel against God's commands just as long as we are convinced in our own minds that it is ok to do, but rather that was only said in regard to disputable matters of opinion in which God has given no command.

The reason why we are to keep the Sabbath holy is not because man esteemed it as a disputable matter of opinion, but because God rested on it, blessed it, made it holy, He makes us holy, and because God commanded His children to keep it holy. The Sabbath is holy to God regardless of whether or not we keep it holy and what is holy to God should not be profaned by. man, so we would still be obligated to keep the Sabbath holy even if God had never commanded anyone to do that.

10. HB 3:7-4:11 encourages Christians to enter God’s Sabbath rest or salvation by persevering faith in Christ.
In Hebrews 3:18, they did not enter into God's rest because of their disobedience, and in Ezekiel 20:13, it specifically mentions that they greatly profaned God's Sabbaths. In Hebrews 4:9-11, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, we should rest form our work as God rested from His, and we should strive to enter into that rest so that no one may fall away by the same sort of disobedience, so trying to use entering into God's rest in to to justify the same sort of disobedience it the opposite of what is being said.. We should not think that we can have the same sort of disobedience that prevented the Israelites from entering into God's rest and that it will go differently for us.
 

MeowFlower

Well-known member
Aug 25, 2024
883
406
63
youtube.com
I do hate what you believe because it's contrary to the gospel. How many times do I have to tell you and your Saturday fanatic friends that I am not anti-sabbath; I am anti-sabbath-is-a-salvation-issue. I used to attend a messianic congregation on Friday evenings and they did so for cultural reasons, not a salvific one. So I do understand quite well that you and the others who insist sabbaths are a salvation issue are quite lost in the weeds and have no business teaching anyone.
At least you admit you hate.

You're too stubborn and blind to know what Sabbath actually is. And I don't for a minute believe you ever attended a Messianic congregation..

You talk a lot of hate. And in the process you prove you do not know the Gospel at all.

John 17:14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
 

MeowFlower

Well-known member
Aug 25, 2024
883
406
63
youtube.com
At least you admit you hate.

You're too stubborn and blind to know what Sabbath actually is. And I don't for a minute believe you ever attended a Messianic congregation..

You talk a lot of hate. And in the process you prove you do not know the Gospel at all.

John 17:14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
Hebrews 4
English Standard Version



4 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. 2 For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.[a] 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,
“As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall not enter my rest,’”
although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” 5 And again in this passage he said,
“They shall not enter my rest.”
6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God[b] would not have spoken of another day later on. 9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, 10 for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Jesus the Great High Priest
14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Footnotes
  1. Hebrews 4:2 Some manuscripts it did not meet with faith in the hearers
  2. Hebrews 4:8 Greek he
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,227
2,205
113
An common 'euphemism' for having died is said 'to go to his rest' and, As I considered how the sabbath might be correlated to Jesus' death

I noted a peculiarity that the Strong's Hebrew offers two variations for 7673:

7673a 'shabath'; to cease, desist, rest

and 7673b 'shabbath'; to keep, observe (sabbath)

and the Englishman's concordance doesn't 7673 doesn't offer as two part.

And the notion was not 'laid to rest' following the arrow link to 7674 leads to 'shebeth' where 4 there is given four occurrences translated as"

1) Exodus 21:19 NAS for his loss of time; KJV [for] his loss of time; and INT his loss;
2) Proverbs 20:3 NAS keeping away; KJV to cease, and INT keeping
3) Isaiah 30:7 NAS has been exterminated; KJV [is] to sit still; and INT has been exterminated
4) Obadiah 1:3 INT cease

...If Jesus died (slain from the foundation of the world) the seventh day (in that day that you eat of the tree...?).... :unsure: Then this is what we are commanded to remember and, indeed, Christians do this, daily, as we receive our daily bread.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,227
2,205
113
Noting in particular that word spelled similarly in Hebrew do have significance in correlation, I find it of exceptional significance that our Lord's 'ceasing' was instrumental in His 'keeping' of us. :coffee:
 

MeowFlower

Well-known member
Aug 25, 2024
883
406
63
youtube.com
Hebrews 4
English Standard Version



4 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. 2 For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.[a] 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,
“As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall not enter my rest,’”
although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” 5 And again in this passage he said,
“They shall not enter my rest.”
6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God[b] would not have spoken of another day later on. 9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, 10 for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Jesus the Great High Priest
14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Footnotes
  1. Hebrews 4:2 Some manuscripts it did not meet with faith in the hearers
  2. Hebrews 4:8 Greek he
Hebrews 3
English Standard Version



Jesus Greater Than Moses
3 Therefore, holy brothers,[a] you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession, 2 who was faithful to him who appointed him, just as Moses also was faithful in all God's[b] house. 3 For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses—as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself. 4 (For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.) 5 Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later, 6 but Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house, if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.[c]
A Rest for the People of God
7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
on the day of testing in the wilderness,
9 where your fathers put me to the test
and saw my works for forty years.
10 Therefore I was provoked with that generation,
and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart;
they have not known my ways.’
11 As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall not enter my rest.’”
12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. 15 As it is said,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
16 For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.
Footnotes
  1. Hebrews 3:1 Or brothers and sisters; also verse 12
  2. Hebrews 3:2 Greek his; also verses 5, 6
  3. Hebrews 3:6 Some manuscripts insert firm to the end
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
3,371
1,002
113
It is completely straightforward that Jesus saves us from not obeying God's law by graciously teaching us to obey it. What is ridiculous about that? In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is intrinsically His gift of saving us from not being a doer of those works.
The law tells you that you are a sinner.

The law does not save you or make you righteous.

Trying and failing to obey the law readies you for the messiah.

Once in Christ we live by faith and not by the law.

We have commandment to love others as Christ loved us, which is superior to the law.

We must bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit and love is the ultimate fruit.

If you can understand that we are in a new covenant now!

The Jews were in a previous covenant to obey the book of the law.

The new covenant is the fulfillment of the old covenant.

In Christ we are new creations and the old has passed.

All things are new for us.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
1,737
441
83
The NT speaks against sin, sin is the the transgression of God's law, and God's law commands to keep the Sabbath holy. Jesus taught to keep the Sabbath holy both through his interactions with the Pharisees on the topic and by example. In 1 Peter 1:16, we are instructed to be holy for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to do that, which straightforwardly includes keeping God's Sabbaths holy (Leviticus 19:2-3). In Acts 15:21, the expectation was that Gentiles would hearing Moses taught every Sabbath in the synagogues.

It has always been lawful to do good on the Sabbath, so the issue was not about keeping the Sabbath or not, but about priority. While God commanded His children to rest on the Sabbath he also commanded priests to rest on the Sabbath, however, it was not the case that priests were forced to sin by disobeying one of the two commands no matter what they chose to do but that the lesser command was never intended to be understood as preventing the greater command from being obeyed. This is why Jesus said in Matthew 12:5-7 that priests who did their duties on the Sabbath were held innocent, which David and his men were innocent, and why he defended his disciples as being innocent.

Some Pharisees had reasoned that it is unlawful to work on the Sabbath and that healing is work, therefore it is unlawful to heal on the Sabbath. However, we are also instructed to love our neighbor as ourselves, it would not be loving our neighbor to refuse to heal them, and no command was intended to be understood as preventing us from obeying the greatest two commandments, which is why it was lawful for Jesus to heal on the Sabbath.

Likewise, there is the issue of being permitted to bear false witness in order preserve someone's life, which does not mean that the command against bearing false witness is not important.

That verse leaves room for two scenarios:

1.) The Colossians were not keeping God's feasts, they were being judged by Jews because they were not, and Paul was encouraging them not to let anyone judge them for not keeping them.

2.) The Colossians were keeping God's feasts, they were being judged by pagans because they were keeping them, and Paul was encouraging them not to let anyone judge them for keeping them.

In Colossians 2:16-23, Paul described the people who were judging the Colossians was promoting human teachings and precepts, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, which means that they were being judged by pagans that that the second scenario is the case. Those promoting asceticism and severity to the body would be judging people for celebrating feasts, not for refraining from doing that.

In Galatians 4:8-11, Paul addressed those verses to those who formerly did not know God who were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods, which again is describing former pagans. As such, they were not formerly following God's law for how to know Him and Paul could not have been criticizing them for returning to obeying it, so the days that they were returning to was within the context of paganism. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, so those who formerly did not know God again does not refer to those who were formerly obeying God's law.

In Romans 14:1, the topic of the chapter is in regard to how to handle disputable matters of opinion in which God has given no command, not in regard to whether followers of God should follow God, so nothing in the chapter should be interpreted as speaking against following God. For example, in Romans 14:2-3, they were judging and resenting each other based on whether or not someone chose to eat only vegetables even though God gave no command to do that.

In Romans 14:4-6, Paul spoke about those who ate or refrained from eating unto the Lord, so he was speaking about those who esteemed certain days for fasting as a disputable matter of opinion. For example, it had become a common practice in the 1st century for people to fast twice a week and people were judging and resenting each other based on whether or not someone chose to do that even though God gave no command to do that (Luke 18:12). Paul was not suggesting that we are free to rebel against God's commands just as long as we are convinced in our own minds that it is ok to do, but rather that was only said in regard to disputable matters of opinion in which God has given no command.

The reason why we are to keep the Sabbath holy is not because man esteemed it as a disputable matter of opinion, but because God rested on it, blessed it, made it holy, He makes us holy, and because God commanded His children to keep it holy. The Sabbath is holy to God regardless of whether or not we keep it holy and what is holy to God should not be profaned by. man, so we would still be obligated to keep the Sabbath holy even if God had never commanded anyone to do that.

In Hebrews 3:18, they did not enter into God's rest because of their disobedience, and in Ezekiel 20:13, it specifically mentions that they greatly profaned God's Sabbaths. In Hebrews 4:9-11, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, we should rest form our work as God rested from His, and we should strive to enter into that rest so that no one may fall away by the same sort of disobedience, so trying to use entering into God's rest in to to justify the same sort of disobedience it the opposite of what is being said.. We should not think that we can have the same sort of disobedience that prevented the Israelites from entering into God's rest and that it will go differently for us.
No, the primary sin per the NT is transgression of GRFS (GL 3:1-14), and secondary sins are transgression of Christ's law (JN 13:34), which summarizes the OT moral laws (MT 22:37-40) affirmed by the NT (MT 5:17-48) and calls them the fruit of the Spirit (GL 5:22-23), which does NOT include all 613 laws of Moses, such as those pertaining to mildew and infectious disease in LV 14.

Jesus fulfilled/accomplished the 613 Mosaic laws (MT 5:17-19) and taught that righteousness must surpass/supersede that of the Pharisees (MT 5:20) including Paul (ACTS 22:3-5), to whom Jesus appeared, saying "Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you... I am sending you to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me."

Paul did just that when he preached to the folks (both Jews and Gentiles per ACTS 14:1-5) in Galatia (ACTS 13:49), encouraging them to remain true to the faith (ACTS 14:22), which he reiterated in his epistle, beginning "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel, which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ... But if anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" (GL 1:3-9)

Paul stated the true gospel thusly, "I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ [the HS] lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved he and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness [holiness] could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

Paul may also have written Hebrews, which warns against not entering God's Sabbath rest by not holding firmly until the end the confidence/faith in Christ (HB 3:14, 4:2).

Instead of perverting the Gospel by warping it to conform to your Jewish understanding, I encourage you to apply it to yourself so you will then be able to judge or interpret Scripture rightly (MT 7:3-5).
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,562
13,546
113
58
I remember years back discussing salvation with a coworker that had similar views of a works-oriented salvation. When I quoted several verses that spoke of believing, he became upset, stood up and proclaimed, ”If it was that easy, anybody could get saved,” Then left muttering to himself.
That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to believe in/trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21) Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Jesus Christ through faith.
 
Nov 1, 2024
1,143
372
83
It is completely straightforward that Jesus saves us from not obeying God's law by graciously teaching us to obey it. What is ridiculous about that? In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is intrinsically His gift of saving us from not being a doer of those works.
It's a completely ridiculous way of thinking. It's like you think keeping the law is the ultimate goal of salvation.

So let me get this straight. Jesus graciously teaches you how to keep the law, but didn't teach Peter, who called the law an unbearable yoke for himself and all of Israel? This is another ridiculous aspect of your thinking that you folks are completely oblivious to.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.