the Sabbath

[Aaron56]

I don't get how anyone can follow Jesus and stop short of the cross, just to 'observe' his death, like some Rembrandt painting, marveling on its effect on them, while standing afar off behind the velvet rope.

Right?!
It's a story they keep telling with no relevance to their own life.

That's why they remain enamored with religious relics: pieces of the cross, the spear the pierced Him, etc... It's the closest they can get to Him. If they understood "Christ in me" is the hope of glory there would be no need for relics.

 

[Sipsey]

Reminds me of something an atheist once said to me about how believing in God was easy, to which I responded, "If it was easy, everyone would do it."

Misunderstanding can come from both sides. That last step in the leap of faith is what stops most.

 

[Magenta]

Misunderstanding can come from both sides. That last step in the leap of faith is what stops most.

Kind of ironic for an atheist to be saying anything about how easy it is to believe in God, huh? .

 

[Cameron143]

Kind of ironic for an atheist to be saying anything about how easy it is to believe in God, huh? .

It's amazing sometimes what unsaved people say. I've always told my kids I believed they were children of promise and that one day God would make Himself known to them. But long before my oldest was saved, he told me he was going to live by what the Bible said because even if he never was saved, he would have the best life here and the least condemnation later.

 

[Sipsey]

Before I respond to this scripture - how do you think it relates to what we have been discussing.

Previously you said this was Christianity 101:

I agree, if we are in Christ we are going to obey His commandments. John 14:15-18 those who are not in Him are opposed to His law Romans 8:7-8.
The Commandments are like a mirror so we can see our sins Romans 3:20 Romans 7:7 and our need for Jesus to cleanse and for sanctification and so we are depending on His righteousness Psa 119:172 and not our own because we can't sanctify ourselves, only God can Eze 20:12 Obedience to God shows complete trust in Him to live holy and righteous lives with Jesus leading as our example to follow 1 John 2:6. Disobedience shows our will over His.

No one can keep the Law perfectly before or after they come to saving faith in Jesus. Do you think being saved will allow you or anyone you know to then perfectly keep the Law?

The law has a purpose. It is not to prove our worthiness, but to see our fleshly shortcomings. We were created for good works. These involve loving God, who then gives us the ability to love others as we should.

This includes the ability to forgive, as we are forgiven, and to share the good news available to all who will hear; and lot’s of repentance.

I see the Law as God’s perfect standard. I need a Redeemer to do for me what I cannot. It keeps us pointed in the right direction, it ain’t a measuring stick for us to judge others.

 

[Inquisitor]

I will never forget a conversation I once had with a previous member of Christian Chat who happens to be SDA and was banned back in 2017. He made this statement to me below which demonstrates that he teaches, "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works." (Galatians 1:6-9)

The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.

Some of these alternate gospels date back to the time of the apostles.

The council in Jerusalem (Acts 15), met to determine whether Gentile converts were under the law.

We know for a fact, that the council in Jerusalem decided that the Gentile converts, were never to be subject to the law.

If the Gentile coverts were expected to be under the law (the decalogue), then the apostles would have said so.

The council verdict, without any doubt whatsoever, would have been the Gentile converts were indeed under the decalogue.

The council would not have even mentioned; eating the meat of a strangled animal or it's blood.

Listen to what Peter said at this council of Jerusalem.

Acts 15:10-11
Since this is the case, why are you putting God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our forefathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.

God designed the gospel specifically so, “'If that all it takes, anybody could get saved', and left in a huff."

 

[Inquisitor]

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Yeah, Paul can be tricky to understand, many think he made a case for lawlessness, but its not what he taught. I'm short for time but I will be happy to go though Romans 7 with you a little later .

You said, "I will be happy to go though Romans 7 with you a little later."

You do not understand the letter to the Romans.

Saying that the letter to the Romans is tricky to understand, needs to be corrected.

The letter to the Romans is almost impossible to understand.

Nearly all New Testament scholars stumble in the letter to the Romans.

What I find most disturbing is that nearly all the N.T letters are simple letters.
Written to simple people concerning simple church problems.

So why do we have a N.T letter (Romans) that everyone gets wrong?

The answer is painfully simple and this is what disturbs me the most.

Paul is addressing the Jews in Rome from chapter two to chapter eleven.

2:17 But if you call yourself a Jew and rely upon the Law and boast in God...

2:24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you”...

2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter.

3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks...

On and on it goes.

If anyone cannot see whom Paul is addressing in Romans, "Are we better than they"?

Then sects will abound, church theology will be corrupt, the gospel will be undermined.

2:24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you”...

This is important to understand because the decalogue gains traction in Romans.

Below is a verse that can be used to support the decalogue.

3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

If Paul is talking to the Jews, then Paul is establishing the law because the law condemns.
That is basis of Paul's argument in chapter seven of Romans, Paul was condemned by coveting.
The Gentiles are not required to obey the law because Paul is talking to the Jews.

It is not easy to see this in Romans but once you identify the audience that Paul is addressing.

Then the fog lifts and you will see exactly what Paul is saying in Romans 2 to Romans 11.

I don't think many people will see this distinction or even understand the issue.

This is a tragedy and has even altered church doctrine through Christian history.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

No one can keep the Law perfectly before or after they come to saving faith in Jesus. Do you think being saved will allow you or anyone you know to then perfectly keep the Law?

The law has a purpose. It is not to prove our worthiness, but to see our fleshly shortcomings. We were created for good works. These involve loving God, who then gives us the ability to love others as we should.

This includes the ability to forgive, as we are forgiven, and to share the good news available to all who will hear; and lot’s of repentance.

I see the Law as God’s perfect standard. I need a Redeemer to do for me what I cannot. It keeps us pointed in the right direction, it ain’t a measuring stick for us to judge others.

The law does have a purpose -it shows us our sins and to show how one is to live so we are not depending on our standard of righteousness but God’s Psa 119:172. The law can’t save, it just shows us our sins. Romans 7:7 Romans 3:20. And the law points us to Christ that when we commit sin or break God’s law we can go to Him for forgiveness and scarification. When Jesus forgives He says go and sin no more. What is dangerous is covering our sins because in doing so we can’t prosper Pro 28:13 by going to Christ for His forgiveness when repenting and to receive His mercy, grace and sanctification. While I agree we can’t keep God’s law on our own, we can though Him as all things are possible through Christ including overcoming sin- if we fall along the way Jesus is now our High Priest and instead of making an animal sacrifice Jesus covers us with His blood, but we too must die of our old self (sin) and be walking in Christ. He doesn’t make us obey alone, but it requires our cooperation John 14:15-18 and Jesus tells us He has a people who overcomes Rev 14:12

 

[SabbathBlessing]

You said, "I will be happy to go though Romans 7 with you a little later."

You do not understand the letter to the Romans.

Saying that the letter to the Romans is tricky to understand, needs to be corrected.

The letter to the Romans is almost impossible to understand.

Nearly all New Testament scholars stumble in the letter to the Romans.

What I find most disturbing is that nearly all the N.T letters are simple letters.
Written to simple people concerning simple church problems.

So why do we have a N.T letter (Romans) that everyone gets wrong?

The answer is painfully simple and this is what disturbs me the most.

Paul is addressing the Jews in Rome from chapter two to chapter eleven.

2:17 But if you call yourself a Jew and rely upon the Law and boast in God...

2:24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you”...

2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter.

3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks...

On and on it goes.

If anyone cannot see whom Paul is addressing in Romans, "Are we better than they"?

Then sects will abound, church theology will be corrupt, the gospel will be undermined.

2:24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you”...

This is important to understand because the decalogue gains traction in Romans.

Below is a verse that can be used to support the decalogue.

3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

If Paul is talking to the Jews, then Paul is establishing the law because the law condemns.
That is basis of Paul's argument in chapter seven of Romans, Paul was condemned by coveting.
The Gentiles are not required to obey the law because Paul is talking to the Jews.

It is not easy to see this in Romans but once you identify the audience that Paul is addressing.

Then the fog lifts and you will see exactly what Paul is saying in Romans 2 to Romans 11.

I don't think many people will see this distinction or even understand the issue.

This is a tragedy and has even altered church doctrine through Christian history.

So gentiles can worship others gods, vain God’s name covet and murder etc.. Can you point to where Gentiles are released from God’s holy commanemnts. Revelation 22:14 Rev 14:12 doesn’t make the distinction only Jews are blessed and will enter into the heavenly kingdom. In God’s covenant there is no Jew or Gentile, just God’s people grafted in through faith. Gal 2:26-28. Paul is not contradicting Himself or Jesus.

 

[TMS]

So why do we have a N.T letter (Romans) that everyone gets wrong?

The answer is painfully simple and this is what disturbs me the most.

Paul is addressing the Jews in Rome from chapter two to chapter eleven.

No
Paul makes it plan that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile. The history has affected the groups differently but at that time God looked at us all the same.

Gal 3:27-29
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Col 3:9-11
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; 10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: 11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Paul would not write a letter just to the Jews if we are all one, and there is neither Greek nor Jew.

 

[TMS]

What you are saying, 'the moral law', has always been. That is not true. Read what Paul states below.

Romans 9:4
Who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises.

Mt Sinai was ground zero for the entire law. That includes what you call the moral law, Exodus 20.

Ground zero.... not at all.
Ex 20 was not the start of the moral law.
It was written in stone and given to the people at that time but that does not exclude the fact that God is Love.

Love is the basis of all the 10 commandments. And not killing, not lying and not taking God's name in vain were all sins. Before and after Ex 20.

The moral law is about the heart and following the principles of love.

We have been subject to these moral laws from the start.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Could it be that there was a set of laws introduced at that time of the Exodus but a moral law that has always been.

 

[Inquisitor]

So gentiles can worship others gods, vain God’s name covet and murder etc.. Can you point to where Gentiles are released from God’s holy commanemnts. Revelation 22:14 Rev 14:12 doesn’t make the distinction only Jews are blessed and will enter into the heavenly kingdom. In God’s covenant there is no Jew or Gentile, just God’s people grafted in through faith. Gal 2:26-28. Paul is not contradicting Himself or Jesus.

You do not understand the post you replied to.

You do not understand the letter to the Romans, like everyone else.

The law was given so that the Jews would transgress, their transgression resulted in grace increasing.

When the Jews absolutely failed the law, and were rightfully condemned.

Then God sent His Son to reconcile the Jews to Himself.

Romans 9
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written:
There is no righteous person, not even one;
11 There is no one who understands,
There is no one who seeks out God;
12 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good,
There is not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The venom of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Their mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And they have not known the way of peace.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Your already dead in your sin, stone dead.

Don't talk to me about legal obedience, you failed before you even started trying to obey the law.

Romans 7:24
Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

Game over.

 

[Inquisitor]

Ground zero.... not at all.
Ex 20 was not the start of the moral law.

The law, the written law, the commandments, all began at Exodus 20.

You do not understand what 'the law' means.

Israel was given the law at Exodus 20, do you understand?

You keep babbling on about the law before Exodus. You are mistaken, you are in error.

The tablets of stone were given at Exodus 20 and not before.

Stop making claims that are not based on the scripture.

 

[Inquisitor]

The law does have a purpose -it shows us our sins and to show how one is to live so we are not depending on our standard of righteousness but God’s Psa 119:172. The law can’t save, it just shows us our sins. Romans 7:7 Romans 3:20. And the law points us to Christ that when we commit sin or break God’s law we can go to Him for forgiveness and scarification. When Jesus forgives He says go and sin no more. What is dangerous is covering our sins because in doing so we can’t prosper Pro 28:13 by going to Christ for His forgiveness when repenting and to receive His mercy, grace and sanctification. While I agree we can’t keep God’s law on our own, we can though Him as all things are possible through Christ including overcoming sin- if we fall along the way Jesus is now our High Priest and instead of making an animal sacrifice Jesus covers us with His blood, but we too must die of our old self (sin) and be walking in Christ. He doesn’t make us obey alone, but it requires our cooperation John 14:15-18 and Jesus tells us He has a people who overcomes Rev 14:12

You need to seriously improve your understanding of the law.

The law not only declares that you are sinful, the law tells you that you cannot change.

You are dead in your sin, you have been condemned. It killed Paul, how come it did not kill you?

Romans 7:9
I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin came to life, and I died.

The law achieved it's real purpose, it killed you.

Dead men cannot rise and try and obey the law again.

The law is the executioner.

 

[Inquisitor]

I will never forget a conversation I once had with a previous member of Christian Chat who happens to be SDA and was banned back in 2017. He made this statement to me below which demonstrates that he teaches, "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works." (Galatians 1:6-9)

The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.

How powerfully wrong can alternate gospels be.

It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross.

The blood of Jesus Christ is the start and finish of our salvation.

God forbid, anyone would boast in anything but our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[TMS]

The law, the written law, the commandments, all began at Exodus 20.

You do not understand what 'the law' means.

Israel was given the law at Exodus 20, do you understand?

You keep babbling on about the law before Exodus. You are mistaken, you are in error.

The tablets of stone were given at Exodus 20 and not before.

Stop making claims that are not based on the scripture.

It was a sin for Cain to kill Abel
Sin is the transgression of the law.

A law must have existed for Cain to be held guilty of sin.

 

[Inquisitor]

It was a sin for Cain to kill Abel
Sin is the transgression of the law.

A law must have existed for Cain to be held guilty of sin.

You keep repeating this over and over again.

The law began at Exodus 20.

I keep repeating this over and over again. The 10 commandments began at Mt Sinai.

I can show you with quotations where the law began.

You need to support your claim with quotations of the law, written in stone, in Genesis.

Cain did not love his brother and killed him. The real sin was not loving others.

1 John 3:11-12
For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we are to love one another; not as Cain, who was of the evil one and murdered his brother.

Not loving others was the unwritten commandment from the very beginning.

"which you have heard from the beginning"

You keep stumbling and missing what each author is saying.

Cain did not love his brother.

 

[TMS]

The law, the written law, the commandments, all began at Exodus 20.

Yes the 10 ommandment law written in stone was given at Siani, but the laws written on stone existed before siani.

All 10 can be seen before Ex 20 as laws that God expected mankind to keep.

It was give at Siani because Israel needed to be reminded of the morals that their time in Egypt had distorted..

You keep babbling on about the law before Exodus. You are mistaken, you are in error.

The tablets of stone were given at Exodus 20 and not before.

Stop making claims that are not based on the scripture.

I agree the tablets were given in Ex 20, but it was not lawful to break the sabbath in Ex 16. Regardless of when it was written on stone it still defines sin.

Sin is the transgression of the law... sin was around in Adam and Eves day and is around today.
A law is being transgressed before and after Ex 20.

 

[TMS]

You need to seriously improve your understanding of the law.

The law not only declares that you are sinful, the law tells you that you cannot change.

You are dead in your sin, you have been condemned. It killed Paul, how come it did not kill you?

Romans 7:9
I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin came to life, and I died.

The law achieved it's real purpose, it killed you.

Dead men cannot rise and try and obey the law again.

The law is the executioner.

Why does Jesus say go and sin no more.

The law reveals our state ... sin = death
But we do not continue to sin.
By grace God will help us to be free from sin.

 

[TMS]

Cain did not love his brother.

I said love is the basis of the law...
Because Cain didn't love his bro he murdered him.

Thou shalt not murder.