The Saving results of the Death of Christ !
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The person in the old testament would have sins remitted but not redeemed. Jesus redeemed all sins that were only remitted that needed redeeming at the cross.
hebrews 9.15
15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the REDEMPTION of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Rom 3 24Being justified freely by his grace through the REDEMPTION that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
hebrews 9.15
15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the REDEMPTION of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Rom 3 24Being justified freely by his grace through the REDEMPTION that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
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calvinists are often very prideful and do a great deal of harm regarding the sharing of the Gospel. Some calvinists openly state there is nothing you can do to be saved if you are not one of the pre-selected chosen ones. Even if you have faith in Jesus Christ and proclaim Him Lord and Savior you are not saved if you are not one of “them”. That mindset goes entirely against the very words of God.
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Jesus healed a man so sick he could not rise from his cot in order to prove that He has authority to forgive sin ((Matthew 9)).
before He died.
there is no sacrifice in the law for adultery or murder, but David's sin was removed ((2 Samuel 12:13)).
before He was made flesh.
God isn't evidently constrained by time, in the way that we are, unless it's His good pleasure to insert Himself into it willingly.
before He died.
there is no sacrifice in the law for adultery or murder, but David's sin was removed ((2 Samuel 12:13)).
before He was made flesh.
God isn't evidently constrained by time, in the way that we are, unless it's His good pleasure to insert Himself into it willingly.
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heck i agree with him about what Peter said. same thing as what Paul said. salvation is through faith by grace, worked by the atoning/propitiating blood of Christ shed at the cross. he wanted me to discuss 'post 435' so i did, and he calls that 'evasion' ??
come to think of it you may have been the one who pointed out 1 John 2:2 to me, EG... ? you probably don't remember either.
i was stuck on how it is that atonement is made but not applied; i saw it as though that would mean God has failed so i presumed that His atonement, in His omniscience, wasn't intended for those who wouldn't accept it.
but He died not only for His friends but His enemies also -- such great love! -- i don't think, anymore, that this particular point has anything to do with whatever disagreements we might have among ourselves of the implications of predestination & free will. it's about 'showing forth His righteousness' as Paul put it.
Christ would take the time to answer and reason with the pharisees even while they were looking for a way to kill him. He said, love your enemies -- what good is it if you only love those who love you? no better than the pagans. He calls Judas with Satan inside him, "friend" -- that's gotta be hot coals on his head, lol !!
come to think of it you may have been the one who pointed out 1 John 2:2 to me, EG... ? you probably don't remember either.
i was stuck on how it is that atonement is made but not applied; i saw it as though that would mean God has failed so i presumed that His atonement, in His omniscience, wasn't intended for those who wouldn't accept it.
but He died not only for His friends but His enemies also -- such great love! -- i don't think, anymore, that this particular point has anything to do with whatever disagreements we might have among ourselves of the implications of predestination & free will. it's about 'showing forth His righteousness' as Paul put it.
Christ would take the time to answer and reason with the pharisees even while they were looking for a way to kill him. He said, love your enemies -- what good is it if you only love those who love you? no better than the pagans. He calls Judas with Satan inside him, "friend" -- that's gotta be hot coals on his head, lol !!
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well, 1 John 2:2 doesn't let me conclude that 'the whole world' refers to believers. John writes, not only ours, but all theirs also. in that letter he defines who 'ours' is -- those that believe. so i can't escape that His propitiation is sufficient for all, His blood given for all.
when John the Baptist says that He is the Lamb taking away the sin of the world, he doesn't say 'all the world' like John does in his little letter. so it think scripture is making a distinction between the sufficiency and the application of atonement.
something that came to mind last night while i was talking to @brightfame52 was how Christ wept over Jerusalem saying 'all day long I have held out my hands' to them. i thought, this is like the topic of the atonement being limited or unlimited. it's not as though He is unwilling; if they would turn, He would save them -- but many won't turn.
we're going to have to get into quantum physics eventually with this topic. superposition of states & the observer effect -- that's where nature testifies of free will & predestination; it's something not intuitive to us as humans living in our macro-world, but the cat in the box is both alive & not, and the photon is both particle-like & wave-like ---- or maybe we ought to say, it's something else entirely outside our ability to describe..
His omniscience demands that He has known for all time who it is that believes and who it is that doesn't. even among the disciples He Himself chose -- but He didn't turn them away, rather let them turn away themselves, and His willingness to let them sit at His feet and learn from Him even while He knew they would eventually reject & abandon Him is a testimony against them & a testimony of His great love, isn't it?
when John the Baptist says that He is the Lamb taking away the sin of the world, he doesn't say 'all the world' like John does in his little letter. so it think scripture is making a distinction between the sufficiency and the application of atonement.
something that came to mind last night while i was talking to @brightfame52 was how Christ wept over Jerusalem saying 'all day long I have held out my hands' to them. i thought, this is like the topic of the atonement being limited or unlimited. it's not as though He is unwilling; if they would turn, He would save them -- but many won't turn.
we're going to have to get into quantum physics eventually with this topic. superposition of states & the observer effect -- that's where nature testifies of free will & predestination; it's something not intuitive to us as humans living in our macro-world, but the cat in the box is both alive & not, and the photon is both particle-like & wave-like ---- or maybe we ought to say, it's something else entirely outside our ability to describe..
His omniscience demands that He has known for all time who it is that believes and who it is that doesn't. even among the disciples He Himself chose -- but He didn't turn them away, rather let them turn away themselves, and His willingness to let them sit at His feet and learn from Him even while He knew they would eventually reject & abandon Him is a testimony against them & a testimony of His great love, isn't it?
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