The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

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Dec 21, 2020
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how do you know? isn't it possible all will or none will?
Do you think it's possible that all people living today will be saved?
Do you think it's possible that no people living today will be saved?

Really?

Why did you ask this question?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Do you think it's possible that all people living today will be saved?
Do you think it's possible that no people living today will be saved?

Really?

Why did you ask this question?
because i want to point out that we know this of a certainty, because God Himself told us, ahead of time.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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Christs death ensures for all whom He died, deliverance from this present evil world[Salvation] according to the Will of God !

Gal 1:4-5

4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

That fact Glorifies God the Father ! 52
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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well, 1 John 2:2 doesn't let me conclude that 'the whole world' refers to believers. John writes, not only ours, but all theirs also. in that letter he defines who 'ours' is -- those that believe. so i can't escape that His propitiation is sufficient for all, His blood given for all.

when John the Baptist says that He is the Lamb taking away the sin of the world, he doesn't say 'all the world' like John does in his little letter. so it think scripture is making a distinction between the sufficiency and the application of atonement.

something that came to mind last night while i was talking to @brightfame52 was how Christ wept over Jerusalem saying 'all day long I have held out my hands' to them. i thought, this is like the topic of the atonement being limited or unlimited. it's not as though He is unwilling; if they would turn, He would save them -- but many won't turn.

we're going to have to get into quantum physics eventually with this topic. superposition of states & the observer effect -- that's where nature testifies of free will & predestination; it's something not intuitive to us as humans living in our macro-world, but the cat in the box is both alive & not, and the photon is both particle-like & wave-like ---- or maybe we ought to say, it's something else entirely outside our ability to describe..

His omniscience demands that He has known for all time who it is that believes and who it is that doesn't. even among the disciples He Himself chose -- but He didn't turn them away, rather let them turn away themselves, and His willingness to let them sit at His feet and learn from Him even while He knew they would eventually reject & abandon Him is a testimony against them & a testimony of His great love, isn't it?
So your view is that 1 John 2:2 is speaking of sufficiency and not application?

I won't argue about sufficiency. The Lord is absolutely sufficient in all ways.

But I just can't wrap my mind around the Lord being the propitiation for the whole world yet some don't get propitiated for.

It would make more sense (in my head) to say only the world of believers receive this propitiation since unbelievers in fact don't receive this propitiation.



Otherwise, you are inadvertently stating an impossibility. A person who has had their sins atoned for by Christ dying in their sins. Will not compute. The equation won't balance. It has to simplify down to (Die in sins = not atoned for)

That is the simplicity that I try to show. I don't think it is against what scripture says. It just doesn't describe the sufficiency of what God does. Which we can't really do anyway. Or what we would say would be insufficient...:ROFL:
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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But I just can't wrap my mind around the Lord being the propitiation for the whole world yet some don't get propitiated for.

It would make more sense (in my head) to say only the world of believers receive this propitiation since unbelievers in fact don't receive this propitiation.
well what i think it's saying is that it's there and available to them but because they refuse to believe it's not applied to them.
like, whosoever is hungry, let him eat -- whosoever is thirsty, let him drink freely, but many won't come to Him to eat or to drink. as though in the wedding banquet parable the invitation went out but was refused. the man found not wearing the proper garment, is like someone who rejects the propitiation but thinks he can still enjoy the feast -- maybe his garment is at the door still, but he snuck in some other way like a murderer or a thief.


Otherwise, you are inadvertently stating an impossibility. A person who has had their sins atoned for by Christ dying in their sins. Will not compute. The equation won't balance. It has to simplify down to (Die in sins = not atoned for)
yes, those are my thoughts on it too -- i think John 8:24 is clear enough showing that without belief one's sins remain un-atoned-for. even though there was a seat at the table the man without the wedding garment was cast out when it was discovered he wasn't properly dressed. it's like, what 1 John 2:2 is telling us is that there was a garment available to that man, but he didn't put it on; he didn't come through The Door.

on the other hand it doesn't seem right to me that in heaven / on the new earth there will be rows and rows of empty houses. i think when this Carpenter went to prepare a place for us, He knew exactly how many rooms to build.

it's like the Bible is designed to humble us, isn't it? it never lets us sit back and say '
ah now i know everything about God's ways' - there is always something about these great questions pointing out that His ways are higher than ours, and unsearchable :)

the atheist can come along now and say i'm copping out and covering up inconsistency and paradox. but he'd be vastly oversimplifying in order to accuse. nature is this way -- here we are at quantum mechanics again. if creation is testifying of its Creator, well i guess i ought to expect that there are marvelous things which look paradoxical to me in my ignorance of the things underlying them.

Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable His judgments and His ways past finding out!
(Romans 11:33)​
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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But I just can't wrap my mind around the Lord being the propitiation for the whole world yet some don't get propitiated for.
If we truly know that Jesus is God, then we see

that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them 2Cor.5:19

We see how Jesus held back his anger on people who sinned against him. He did not destroy even those who spit on him, who beat him wthout mercy. He placated his judgement against this world....until a later time.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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So your view is that 1 John 2:2 is speaking of sufficiency and not application?

I won't argue about sufficiency. The Lord is absolutely sufficient in all ways.

But I just can't wrap my mind around the Lord being the propitiation for the whole world yet some don't get propitiated for.

It would make more sense (in my head) to say only the world of believers receive this propitiation since unbelievers in fact don't receive this propitiation.



Otherwise, you are inadvertently stating an impossibility. A person who has had their sins atoned for by Christ dying in their sins. Will not compute. The equation won't balance. It has to simplify down to (Die in sins = not atoned for)

That is the simplicity that I try to show. I don't think it is against what scripture says. It just doesn't describe the sufficiency of what God does. Which we can't really do anyway. Or what we would say would be insufficient...:ROFL:
Do you believe those who never become believers had their sins propitiated for ?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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Everyone has always been saved by faith. In the OT, and in the book of Revelation, people were (and will be) required to demonstrate their faith. In the OT they were required to keep the law. In Revelation it explicitly states that they must "endure to the end". Saul lost the Holy Spirit, and did evil in the sight of the Lord. After David sinned, he prayed to God not to take the Holy Spirit from him.

Throughfaith is right. Christians are sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit. People in the OT, and people who will be going through the tribulation, were not sealed with the Holy Spirit.

First post, gotta jump in somewhere.. :)
Christ's faith justifies us eternally. Gal 2:16, Our faith, which is a fruit of the Holy Spirit that is given in the new birth, can deliver us as we sojourn here in this world, through keeping the law in the old testament, and enduring to the end in the new testament, but our faith will not deliver us eternally.

Salvation according to Greek definition = a deliverance. The elect are delivered eternally, and they are delivered many times as they sojourn here in this world.

There will be no 1000 year reign after the last day. The last day means the last day. Christ has been reigning in his Kingdom, the church, ever sense the day that he set it up in the Apostles days, and will raise it up to heaven at the last day.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Not through our faith but through Christ's faith, Gal 2:16.
Nope

his faith could not save me, his faith would save everyone, because that’s why he went to the cross

him bringing me to faith so that I recieve freely his gift, is the means by which by grace I have been saved (eph 1-2)
 
Dec 21, 2020
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Christ's faith justifies us eternally. Gal 2:16
When we chose to believe, yes.

Our faith, which is a fruit of the Holy Spirit that is given in the new birth, can deliver us as we sojourn here in this world, through keeping the law in the old testament, and enduring to the end in the new testament, but our faith will not deliver us eternally.
Our faith in Jesus Christ is precisely what delivers us eternally. When a person hears the Gospel, and decides to believe it, THEN he is sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit, he guarantee of salvation (Eph 1:13-14).

Salvation according to Greek definition = a deliverance. The elect are delivered eternally, and they are delivered many times as they sojourn here in this world.
The elect are people who freely chose to believe the Gospel. Nobody's destiny is predetermined.

There will be no 1000 year reign after the last day.
That depends on what you mean by the "last day". Christ will return for the Christian church (AKA the rapture), then the tribulation, then Christ will return TO earth to fight Armageddon and set up the millennial kingdom.

The last day means the last day.
Again, please define it. There are several "stages" to the last day.

Christ has been reigning in his Kingdom, the church, ever sense the day that he set it up in the Apostles days, and will raise it up to heaven at the last day.
The kingdom is not here yet. The kingdom will be here when Christ returns and sets it up.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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Do you believe those who never become believers had their sins propitiated for ?
It is not what anyone believes or disbelieves but what God says:

And He [Christ] is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2).

This verse is found in every bible, and in both the Received and the Critical texts.

Since you do not believe this, you do not believe God and Christ. You have put your faith in the doctrines of men.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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It is not what anyone believes or disbelieves but what God says:

And He [Christ] is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2).

This verse is found in every bible, and in both the Received and the Critical texts.

Since you do not believe this, you do not believe God and Christ. You have put your faith in the doctrines of men.
Do you believe those who never become believers had their sins propitiated for ? Simple yes or no please.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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Eternal life is the word Jesus used

it means once a person is made alive who was dead, their life is eternal. And since it is based on Gods work and his promise, and not based on our work, we can be secure in our destination for all eternity
Every one that he died for are, at sometime in their life, made alive, which is God's elect people.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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Just to be clear: Are you claiming God chooses people to send to hell without any chance for them to be saved? They could literally beg and plead for salvation and God will not hear them?
The unregenerate natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, will not ever beg and plead to be spiritually saved, until God quickens him to a new spiritual life.