The Saving results of the Death of Christ !
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Christs death ensures for all whom He died, deliverance from this present evil world[Salvation] according to the Will of God !
Gal 1:4-5
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
That fact Glorifies God the Father ! 52
Gal 1:4-5
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
That fact Glorifies God the Father ! 52
So your view is that 1 John 2:2 is speaking of sufficiency and not application?
I won't argue about sufficiency. The Lord is absolutely sufficient in all ways.
But I just can't wrap my mind around the Lord being the propitiation for the whole world yet some don't get propitiated for.
It would make more sense (in my head) to say only the world of believers receive this propitiation since unbelievers in fact don't receive this propitiation.
Otherwise, you are inadvertently stating an impossibility. A person who has had their sins atoned for by Christ dying in their sins. Will not compute. The equation won't balance. It has to simplify down to (Die in sins = not atoned for)
That is the simplicity that I try to show. I don't think it is against what scripture says. It just doesn't describe the sufficiency of what God does. Which we can't really do anyway. Or what we would say would be insufficient...
I won't argue about sufficiency. The Lord is absolutely sufficient in all ways.
But I just can't wrap my mind around the Lord being the propitiation for the whole world yet some don't get propitiated for.
It would make more sense (in my head) to say only the world of believers receive this propitiation since unbelievers in fact don't receive this propitiation.
Otherwise, you are inadvertently stating an impossibility. A person who has had their sins atoned for by Christ dying in their sins. Will not compute. The equation won't balance. It has to simplify down to (Die in sins = not atoned for)
That is the simplicity that I try to show. I don't think it is against what scripture says. It just doesn't describe the sufficiency of what God does. Which we can't really do anyway. Or what we would say would be insufficient...
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well what i think it's saying is that it's there and available to them but because they refuse to believe it's not applied to them.
like, whosoever is hungry, let him eat -- whosoever is thirsty, let him drink freely, but many won't come to Him to eat or to drink. as though in the wedding banquet parable the invitation went out but was refused. the man found not wearing the proper garment, is like someone who rejects the propitiation but thinks he can still enjoy the feast -- maybe his garment is at the door still, but he snuck in some other way like a murderer or a thief.
yes, those are my thoughts on it too -- i think John 8:24 is clear enough showing that without belief one's sins remain un-atoned-for. even though there was a seat at the table the man without the wedding garment was cast out when it was discovered he wasn't properly dressed. it's like, what 1 John 2:2 is telling us is that there was a garment available to that man, but he didn't put it on; he didn't come through The Door.
on the other hand it doesn't seem right to me that in heaven / on the new earth there will be rows and rows of empty houses. i think when this Carpenter went to prepare a place for us, He knew exactly how many rooms to build.
it's like the Bible is designed to humble us, isn't it? it never lets us sit back and say 'ah now i know everything about God's ways' - there is always something about these great questions pointing out that His ways are higher than ours, and unsearchable
the atheist can come along now and say i'm copping out and covering up inconsistency and paradox. but he'd be vastly oversimplifying in order to accuse. nature is this way -- here we are at quantum mechanics again. if creation is testifying of its Creator, well i guess i ought to expect that there are marvelous things which look paradoxical to me in my ignorance of the things underlying them.
like, whosoever is hungry, let him eat -- whosoever is thirsty, let him drink freely, but many won't come to Him to eat or to drink. as though in the wedding banquet parable the invitation went out but was refused. the man found not wearing the proper garment, is like someone who rejects the propitiation but thinks he can still enjoy the feast -- maybe his garment is at the door still, but he snuck in some other way like a murderer or a thief.
yes, those are my thoughts on it too -- i think John 8:24 is clear enough showing that without belief one's sins remain un-atoned-for. even though there was a seat at the table the man without the wedding garment was cast out when it was discovered he wasn't properly dressed. it's like, what 1 John 2:2 is telling us is that there was a garment available to that man, but he didn't put it on; he didn't come through The Door.
on the other hand it doesn't seem right to me that in heaven / on the new earth there will be rows and rows of empty houses. i think when this Carpenter went to prepare a place for us, He knew exactly how many rooms to build.
it's like the Bible is designed to humble us, isn't it? it never lets us sit back and say 'ah now i know everything about God's ways' - there is always something about these great questions pointing out that His ways are higher than ours, and unsearchable
the atheist can come along now and say i'm copping out and covering up inconsistency and paradox. but he'd be vastly oversimplifying in order to accuse. nature is this way -- here we are at quantum mechanics again. if creation is testifying of its Creator, well i guess i ought to expect that there are marvelous things which look paradoxical to me in my ignorance of the things underlying them.
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable His judgments and His ways past finding out!
How unsearchable His judgments and His ways past finding out!
(Romans 11:33)
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If we truly know that Jesus is God, then we see
that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them 2Cor.5:19
We see how Jesus held back his anger on people who sinned against him. He did not destroy even those who spit on him, who beat him wthout mercy. He placated his judgement against this world....until a later time.
that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them 2Cor.5:19
We see how Jesus held back his anger on people who sinned against him. He did not destroy even those who spit on him, who beat him wthout mercy. He placated his judgement against this world....until a later time.
So your view is that 1 John 2:2 is speaking of sufficiency and not application?
I won't argue about sufficiency. The Lord is absolutely sufficient in all ways.
But I just can't wrap my mind around the Lord being the propitiation for the whole world yet some don't get propitiated for.
It would make more sense (in my head) to say only the world of believers receive this propitiation since unbelievers in fact don't receive this propitiation.
Otherwise, you are inadvertently stating an impossibility. A person who has had their sins atoned for by Christ dying in their sins. Will not compute. The equation won't balance. It has to simplify down to (Die in sins = not atoned for)
That is the simplicity that I try to show. I don't think it is against what scripture says. It just doesn't describe the sufficiency of what God does. Which we can't really do anyway. Or what we would say would be insufficient...
I won't argue about sufficiency. The Lord is absolutely sufficient in all ways.
But I just can't wrap my mind around the Lord being the propitiation for the whole world yet some don't get propitiated for.
It would make more sense (in my head) to say only the world of believers receive this propitiation since unbelievers in fact don't receive this propitiation.
Otherwise, you are inadvertently stating an impossibility. A person who has had their sins atoned for by Christ dying in their sins. Will not compute. The equation won't balance. It has to simplify down to (Die in sins = not atoned for)
That is the simplicity that I try to show. I don't think it is against what scripture says. It just doesn't describe the sufficiency of what God does. Which we can't really do anyway. Or what we would say would be insufficient...
Everyone has always been saved by faith. In the OT, and in the book of Revelation, people were (and will be) required to demonstrate their faith. In the OT they were required to keep the law. In Revelation it explicitly states that they must "endure to the end". Saul lost the Holy Spirit, and did evil in the sight of the Lord. After David sinned, he prayed to God not to take the Holy Spirit from him.
Throughfaith is right. Christians are sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit. People in the OT, and people who will be going through the tribulation, were not sealed with the Holy Spirit.
First post, gotta jump in somewhere..
Throughfaith is right. Christians are sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit. People in the OT, and people who will be going through the tribulation, were not sealed with the Holy Spirit.
First post, gotta jump in somewhere..
Salvation according to Greek definition = a deliverance. The elect are delivered eternally, and they are delivered many times as they sojourn here in this world.
There will be no 1000 year reign after the last day. The last day means the last day. Christ has been reigning in his Kingdom, the church, ever sense the day that he set it up in the Apostles days, and will raise it up to heaven at the last day.
When we chose to believe, yes.
Our faith in Jesus Christ is precisely what delivers us eternally. When a person hears the Gospel, and decides to believe it, THEN he is sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit, he guarantee of salvation (Eph 1:13-14).
The elect are people who freely chose to believe the Gospel. Nobody's destiny is predetermined.
That depends on what you mean by the "last day". Christ will return for the Christian church (AKA the rapture), then the tribulation, then Christ will return TO earth to fight Armageddon and set up the millennial kingdom.
Again, please define it. There are several "stages" to the last day.
The kingdom is not here yet. The kingdom will be here when Christ returns and sets it up.
Our faith in Jesus Christ is precisely what delivers us eternally. When a person hears the Gospel, and decides to believe it, THEN he is sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit, he guarantee of salvation (Eph 1:13-14).
The elect are people who freely chose to believe the Gospel. Nobody's destiny is predetermined.
That depends on what you mean by the "last day". Christ will return for the Christian church (AKA the rapture), then the tribulation, then Christ will return TO earth to fight Armageddon and set up the millennial kingdom.
Again, please define it. There are several "stages" to the last day.
The kingdom is not here yet. The kingdom will be here when Christ returns and sets it up.
It is not what anyone believes or disbelieves but what God says:
And He [Christ] is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2).
This verse is found in every bible, and in both the Received and the Critical texts.
Since you do not believe this, you do not believe God and Christ. You have put your faith in the doctrines of men.
And He [Christ] is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2).
This verse is found in every bible, and in both the Received and the Critical texts.
Since you do not believe this, you do not believe God and Christ. You have put your faith in the doctrines of men.