The Secrets of Infallibility

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Mar 28, 2016
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#61
Then what is the essence of the striving in the first place?

For your second point I don't have a problem with that. whether heaven on or New Jerusalem we are still talking about paradise or eternity with Christ.That's not the bone of our discussion here. At the appropriate thread, we'll deliberate on that.

then for your last comment, don't be in a haste to make conclusion we are still discussing we'll soon see who is in error or not.

I think we strive because as new creatures he freely gives us a desire to do His will as it works in us with us to both know His will we are strengthened to do it.

We do not strive to receive it but rather we work it out as "new creatures" that previously had no faith. (not little none)

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Philipiains 1:6

Having a confidence not of our own self we then can then work it out .Again not for to gain but work out to show who is doing the work of making our hearts soft . He is of one mind and always does whatsoever His soul desires

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.: For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.Philipiains 2:12-13
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
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#62
So my Fellow Christians if you hear anyone preaching that they have no sin you can know the truth is not in them..
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Well, it is written that whosoever commits is of the devil. And that those who are of the devil will do the lusts of their father who was a liar from the beginning abode not in the truth. But whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So in brief, whosoever abideth in him sinneth not:

I challenge anyone to come forward and make the claim they have achieved a sinless life...
LOL, so are you tempting them to turn stone into bread? It is written, man doth not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeded from the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#63
Not "down to the New Earth" but simply above the earth as a heavenly body. The New Jerusalem is not an ordinary city but practically a *continent* in its dimensions. Furthermore, it will be the source of light for the New Earth.
The city will be landing because the Book of Revelation says that people will be going into the city and outside it..
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#64
Then what is the essence of the striving in the first place?
I do not understand this question.. essence???

We should strive to do good because we agree with Jesus that doing good is good.. We should strive agains evil because we agree with Jesus that doing evil is evil.. We should love what is good and hate what is evil.. It takes no ""essence"" what ever that is to try and do what you know is good and try to avoid doing what you know is bad.. Our striving is simply an outward sign of our agreement with the teachings of God..

But again no one ever achieves perfection in their striving..



then for your last comment, don't be in a haste to make conclusion we are still discussing we'll soon see who is in error or not.
You have not even made a counter to my last posts points... So until you do then my job here is finished..
 

Adstar

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Jul 24, 2016
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#65
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Well, it is written that whosoever commits is of the devil. And that those who are of the devil will do the lusts of their father who was a liar from the beginning abode not in the truth. But whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So in brief, whosoever abideth in him sinneth not:



LOL, so are you tempting them to turn stone into bread? It is written, man doth not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeded from the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
Another one who will not declare he has achieved a sinless life..
 

emekrus

Senior Member
Jun 1, 2015
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#66
Fall from salvation.. fall away into Apostasy, false beliefs that do not save.. That's why i believe it is very important to believe the true Gospel and not to mix in our attempts at being righteous in this flesh... That's why i am very firm to say that it is by being justly forgiven our sins that we shall be deemed perfect to enter into the eternal kingdom of God...
Dear Brother,

Concerning the highlighted part of your post, it's obvious you agree with me that one can fall from salvation.

Of course, falling away into Apostasy and false beliefs that do not save can easily be coined into " falling into errors".

So your exegesis agrees with my belief that falling into errors can make us lose our salvation.

If I am getting you wrong...

I want to know how one can actually fall from salvation when their righteousness in the flesh is not actually an hindrance to their salvation.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#67
Dear Brother,

Concerning the highlighted part of your post, it's obvious you agree with me that one can fall from salvation.

Of course, falling away into Apostasy and false beliefs that do not save can easily be coined into " falling into errors".

So your exegesis agrees with my belief that falling into errors can make us lose our salvation.

If I am getting you wrong...

I want to know how one can actually fall from salvation when their righteousness in the flesh is not actually an hindrance to their salvation.
Falling away from salvation has nothing to do with sinning.. except for one sin.. Jesus declared blasphemy of the Holy Spirit to be the only sin that will never be forgiven.. But apart from that sin all other sins are forgiven through the atoning blood of the LORD Jesus Christ..

Falling away from salvation is caused by coming to disbelieve Jesus or ending up no longer trusting that the atonement that the LORD Jesus Christ secured for pays the penalty for our sins..

So the errors are not sin errors but the error of disbelieving Jesus and no longer trusting in the Atonement..
 

emekrus

Senior Member
Jun 1, 2015
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#68
I do not understand this question.. essence???

We should strive to do good because we agree with Jesus that doing good is good.. We should strive agains evil because we agree with Jesus that doing evil is evil.. We should love what is good and hate what is evil.. It takes no ""essence"" what ever that is to try and do what you know is good and try to avoid doing what you know is bad.. Our striving is simply an outward sign of our agreement with the teachings of God..

But again no one ever achieves perfection in their striving..





You have not even made a counter to my last posts points... So until you do then my job here is finished..
Well, with your explanation don't you think one might as well choose not to strive at all to do good or strive against evil. After all it has no significant essence. After all, the person already believes. And according to your position, believing is just sufficient without the strives for righteousness.

Then for the last part, your job here is just starting.
 

emekrus

Senior Member
Jun 1, 2015
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#69
Falling away from salvation has nothing to do with sinning.. except for one sin.. Jesus declared blasphemy of the Holy Spirit to be the only sin that will never be forgiven.. But apart from that sin all other sins are forgiven through the atoning blood of the LORD Jesus Christ..

Falling away from salvation is caused by coming to disbelieve Jesus or ending up no longer trusting that the atonement that the LORD Jesus Christ secured for pays the penalty for our sins..

So the errors are not sin errors but the error of disbelieving Jesus and no longer trusting in the Atonement..
So in other words, apart from disbelieving Jesus, even if the person dies while fornicating, committing adultery or commits suicide he is still well on his way to paradise regardless.

I am deducing that from your exegesis.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#70
Well, with your explanation don't you think one might as well choose not to strive at all to do good or strive against evil. After all it has no significant essence. After all, the person already believes. And according to your position, believing is just sufficient without the strives for righteousness.

Then for the last part, your job here is just starting.
Ok lets bounce this back at you.. If a person is striving to avoid sin out of a desire to enter into Gods perfect eternal existence do they have the right spirit.. Or are they simply striving out of a desire for a material reward snd striving to avoid punishment for failure to succeed in their striving...

Now if someone is striving to avoid sin because they believe that sin is wrong and they hate it is this a better spirit .. Doing good because they love what is good resisting evil because they hate it.. Not out of a desire to enter into an eternal paradise...

I think the second spirit is far and away better then the first..

For instance is it better for a person to give food to a starving person because they care for that person and love to do good for another.. Or is it better for a person to give food to a starving person because they want God to see them doing it so they can get a reward from God..

Works salvation is people striving to do something for a reward,, eternity with God. Or to avoid punishment,,eternity in the lake of fire..

Grace salvation people strive to do something because it is good to do it.. Their salvation is already secured by their belief and Faith in Jesus.. There is no fear of punishment or fear of loss of Gods loving Gift of salvation for a grace believer..

Grace salvation is NOT a license to sin for those who believe the teachings of God.. No one who loves and agrees with the truth of the standards of God will go out and use the Grace Gift of salvation as a license to engage enthusiastically in sinful lifestyle.....


Let me say something about myself.. I became a Christian in my early 20's because a friend at work gifted me a Bible and i read it.. Often as i read it i came to feel very guilty of my sins when those sins where revealed through the scriptures.. Now why does a person feel guilty? What must be present in the mind of a person to read a message from someone else and feel guilty?

Answer:: Agreement with what has been revealedin that message.... People do not feel guilt and remorse when they disagree with the Law / standard being revealed..

For instance..

If i told you that it was a terrible sin to drink water.. Would you feel convicted in your heart and have remorse for drinking water ? Nooo.... More likely you would be moved to laughter at such a statement and you would be rolling your eyes.. Why,,, because you would have no agreement with that standard/law. So it's power to convict you would be Zero..

What i am getting at with this is that part of the salvation process for any Christian to agree with the standards of God,, that they are true and good,, Before they will embrace the Way of salvation which is to be forgiven all their failings to live up to the standards of the LAW...
 

Adstar

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Jul 24, 2016
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#71
So in other words, apart from disbelieving Jesus, even if the person dies while fornicating, committing adultery or commits suicide he is still well on his way to paradise regardless.

I am deducing that from your exegesis.
Not willfully committing adultery.. Not willfully committing suicide.. Not willfully fornicating.. But as a result of the weakness of their fallen human state..

Sinning willfully is sinning with pride and an in your face attitude of rebellion against God and His standards..

Hebrews 10 KJV
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

So yes a person will be forgiven their failings after they accept the Way of Salvation of the LORD Jesus Christ even if those failings include suicide fornication and adultery.. If they continue believing that the Laws against such sinning is true and good and if they continue to trust 100% in the atonement of the LORD Jesus to cover their failings....

That's why it is called Amazing Grace..
 

emekrus

Senior Member
Jun 1, 2015
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#72
Ok lets bounce this back at you.. If a person is striving to avoid sin out of a desire to enter into Gods perfect eternal existence do they have the right spirit.. Or are they simply striving out of a desire for a material reward snd striving to avoid punishment for failure to succeed in their striving...

Now if someone is striving to avoid sin because they believe that sin is wrong and they hate it is this a better spirit .. Doing good because they love what is good resisting evil because they hate it.. Not out of a desire to enter into an eternal paradise...

I think the second spirit is far and away better then the first..

For instance is it better for a person to give food to a starving person because they care for that person and love to do good for another.. Or is it better for a person to give food to a starving person because they want God to see them doing it so they can get a reward from God..

Works salvation is people striving to do something for a reward,, eternity with God. Or to avoid punishment,,eternity in the lake of fire..

Grace salvation people strive to do something because it is good to do it.. Their salvation is already secured by their belief and Faith in Jesus.. There is no fear of punishment or fear of loss of Gods loving Gift of salvation for a grace believer..

Grace salvation is NOT a license to sin for those who believe the teachings of God.. No one who loves and agrees with the truth of the standards of God will go out and use the Grace Gift of salvation as a license to engage enthusiastically in sinful lifestyle.....


Let me say something about myself.. I became a Christian in my early 20's because a friend at work gifted me a Bible and i read it.. Often as i read it i came to feel very guilty of my sins when those sins where revealed through the scriptures.. Now why does a person feel guilty? What must be present in the mind of a person to read a message from someone else and feel guilty?

Answer:: Agreement with what has been revealedin that message.... People do not feel guilt and remorse when they disagree with the Law / standard being revealed..

For instance..

If i told you that it was a terrible sin to drink water.. Would you feel convicted in your heart and have remorse for drinking water ? Nooo.... More likely you would be moved to laughter at such a statement and you would be rolling your eyes.. Why,,, because you would have no agreement with that standard/law. So it's power to convict you would be Zero..

What i am getting at with this is that part of the salvation process for any Christian to agree with the standards of God,, that they are true and good,, Before they will embrace the Way of salvation which is to be forgiven all their failings to live up to the standards of the LAW...
Now let's go back to the scriptures:

Below is a statement direct from scriptures:
Hebrews 12:

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

The above scripture is self-explanatory. It clearly gives two conditions for seeing God. And these are:
1) Following Peace with all men

2) Following Holiness

The above scripture clearly says without the above two requirements, no man shall see the Lord. how do you harmonise this with your position?
 
Apr 15, 2017
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#73
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: for so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ”—2Peter 1:10-11

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: for so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ”—2Peter 1:1-11
The same as these scriptures.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

But there are so many people that say they cannot abstain from sin, even though the Bible says if a person hates sin, and does not want sin, by the Spirit they can abstain from sin, and they sin daily, and sin does not affect their relationship with God, even though the Bible says different.

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

They are relaxed in their walk with God and think they cannot fall so many of them hold unto sin and think they are alright with God.

2Co 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed.

That is why many people do not like Christianity, and say they are hypocritical, because of the people that think that they are alright even when they hold unto sin, so they are mingling with the world caring about worldly things, and loving money and material things for their wants and neglecting the poor and needy.

Pro 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Pro 23:17 Let not thine heart envy sinners: but be thou in the fear of the LORD all the day long.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

People who hold unto sin do not fear the Lord like they should.

And when you say anything about it how they should behave, and that they have to abstain from sin to be right with God they mention that you are saying you never sin, as a holier than thou attitude, but it does not mean they might not sin, but they have the proper attitude that sin does affect their relationship with God, and they will repent of the sin and keep moving forward, not hang unto it, and many with that attitude do a good job at abstaining from sin for that is what they want, and it is usually small sins they engage in like calling someone an idiot.
 

emekrus

Senior Member
Jun 1, 2015
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#74
Not willfully committing adultery.. Not willfully committing suicide.. Not willfully fornicating.. But as a result of the weakness of their fallen human state..

Sinning willfully is sinning with pride and an in your face attitude of rebellion against God and His standards..

Hebrews 10 KJV
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

So yes a person will be forgiven their failings after they accept the Way of Salvation of the LORD Jesus Christ even if those failings include suicide fornication and adultery.. If they continue believing that the Laws against such sinning is true and good and if they continue to trust 100% in the atonement of the LORD Jesus to cover their failings....

That's why it is called Amazing Grace..
So in other words, you mean all the believers who committed suicide and died while in sinful acts are with Jesus right now...

Because they did them still believing that the laws against such acts is true and good.And Because they continued to trust 100% in the atonement of the LORD Jesus to cover their failings.
And this is the great truth you want me and others to accept?
 
Apr 15, 2017
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#75
So in other words, you mean all the believers who committed suicide and died while in sinful acts are with Jesus right now...

Because they did them still believing that the laws against such acts is true and good.And Because they continued to trust 100% in the atonement of the LORD Jesus to cover their failings.
And this is the great truth you want me and others to accept?
If a person commits suicide they cannot be saved for there is no way to repent of it after they have died, and we cannot get right with God if we die with sin on our record.

Jesus gives us joy that no man can take away from us, and your wife's name is Joy, so it is true God gave you Joy, lol.
 

emekrus

Senior Member
Jun 1, 2015
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#76
If a person commits suicide they cannot be saved for there is no way to repent of it after they have died, and we cannot get right with God if we die with sin on our record.

Jesus gives us joy that no man can take away from us, and your wife's name is Joy, so it is true God gave you Joy, lol.
Amen Brother. God bless.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#77
Now let's go back to the scriptures:

Below is a statement direct from scriptures:
Hebrews 12:

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

The above scripture is self-explanatory. It clearly gives two conditions for seeing God. And these are:
1) Following Peace with all men

2) Following Holiness

The above scripture clearly says without the above two requirements, no man shall see the Lord. how do you harmonise this with your position?
I follow holiness by believing Jesus and trusting in the atonement He secured for me.. Once we believe and trust Jesus we are deemed to be Holy By God because all our transgressions are forgiven and forgotten..

And yes it is good to seek to be at peace with all men we should strive to to be at peace with all men..

I do not see how my beliefs are in conflict with this scripture..
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#78
So in other words, you mean all the believers who committed suicide and died while in sinful acts are with Jesus right now...

Because they did them still believing that the laws against such acts is true and good.And Because they continued to trust 100% in the atonement of the LORD Jesus to cover their failings.
And this is the great truth you want me and others to accept?
Yes...
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#79
Of course, falling away into Apostasy and false beliefs that do not save can easily be coined into " falling into errors".

So your exegesis agrees with my belief that falling into errors can make us lose our salvation.
That kind of falling in error that you say can make us lose our salvation. For how long in between? Long enough to crucify Christ again and again exposing Him to public shame that somehow or other more than one demonstration of work of His faith was not enough to satisfy the just demands of the Father?.

To the other group he insures us better things accompany salvation called the "redemption of our soul". We have no worries. He promises us he will not forget the hard work we have performed towards His name .as He worked in us to both will and do the good pleasure of His will.(imputed righteousness)

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.Hebrews 6:9-10
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#80
So in other words, you mean all the believers who committed suicide and died while in sinful acts are with Jesus right now...

Because they did them still believing that the laws against such acts is true and good.And Because they continued to trust 100% in the atonement of the LORD Jesus to cover their failings.
And this is the great truth you want me and others to accept?
I am not promoting suicide And anything that is not of the faith of Christ that comes from hearing God through the scripture. It does not say suicide is not forgivable.

What is not forgivable is to blaspheme the Holy name of God by which we are called heavenward.This is in respect to the unseen Spirit of Christ .When the Son of man Jesus was here in the flesh it was forgivable

How would that work with Jesus as the Son of man? His death was not attributed to the Satan inspired crowd . Of His own violation he gave up the Spirit of Christ returning to the father who bruised the Son who cried out to the father and the father worked to strengthen him to finish the work .

Isaiah 53:4-6 King James Version (KJV)Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

The work of salvation was performed between the Son and the father working together in perfect harmony and mutual submission as one work that brought us the "peace of God" as a dynamic duel a peace that surpasses all human understanding?