The Security Of The Believer
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You didn’t even appear to know about what the verse said since our last conversation, and now you want to move the goal posts to make it fit OSAS when nothing is even the context to support that idea. This is why it is hard to take OSAS believers seriously. They are not playing fair with the text. Filthiness of the flesh and naughtiness is sin. It’s not working for your salvation. That is about as bad of an interpretation one guy gave me on Galatians 5:19-21 in that he said it is talking about recruitment of believers and not salvation. There is real no point of continuing if you are going to employ such bad hermeneutics.
Okay, Isaiah slipping up in a certain area of his life does not mean he was so corrupt that he could not change. See, your viewpoint is here is just silly. You have just eliminated a verse (verse 5) in the Isaiah 64 in order to defend the wrong interpretation. God is not going to criticize you for doing what He says. That is insane and moronic. If you create your own righteous deeds that God did not tell you to do in His Word, then that would be another matter. Ever heard of the verse, be ye holy as I am holy? Ever read Hebrews 12:14 before?
So let me get this straight. Are you saying Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23 applies to the present day walk of the Christian?
I believe these verses only apply to only our past life of sin before we accepted Christ as our Savior and not after.
Why? Because if you are claiming you must sin again as per Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23, then you must also believe you have no understanding and you don’t seek after God according to Romans 3:11.
Okay, Isaiah slipping up in a certain area of his life does not mean he was so corrupt that he could not change. See, your viewpoint is here is just silly. You have just eliminated a verse (verse 5) in the Isaiah 64 in order to defend the wrong interpretation. God is not going to criticize you for doing what He says. That is insane and moronic. If you create your own righteous deeds that God did not tell you to do in His Word, then that would be another matter. Ever heard of the verse, be ye holy as I am holy? Ever read Hebrews 12:14 before?
So let me get this straight. Are you saying Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23 applies to the present day walk of the Christian?
I believe these verses only apply to only our past life of sin before we accepted Christ as our Savior and not after.
Why? Because if you are claiming you must sin again as per Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23, then you must also believe you have no understanding and you don’t seek after God according to Romans 3:11.
I ignored nothing, and I understand that the word "if" sets up a condition, yet I also understand that "if" also sets up a contrast in 1 John 1:6 and 1 John 1:7 between children of the devil and children of God, followed by a confirmation. We also see this same condition, contrast and confirmation in 1 John 3:10, yet this does not align with your NOSAS belief, so you ignore that.
Once again, children of the devil walk in darkness and not in the light and children of God walk in the light and not in darkness. "If" confirms these two separate positions in verses 6 and 7.
1 John 1:6 - If we say (key word) that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. Confirmed child of the devil.
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Confirmed child of God.
Elsewhere John sets up another condition, contrast, confirmation. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9) (descriptive of a child of God) is in contrast to - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10) - descriptive of a child of the devil.
Also, in 1 John 3:7-10, we see the same condition, contrast, confirmation. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin continually, because he has been born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. *Also see 1 John 2:9-11.
Furthermore, in 1 John 4:7-8, we also see this same condition, contrast, confirmation. Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. We love Him because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19) The love of God has been poured out in the hearts of believers by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:5) Are you seeing the light yet?
Once again, children of the devil walk in darkness and not in the light and children of God walk in the light and not in darkness. "If" confirms these two separate positions in verses 6 and 7.
1 John 1:6 - If we say (key word) that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. Confirmed child of the devil.
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Confirmed child of God.
Elsewhere John sets up another condition, contrast, confirmation. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9) (descriptive of a child of God) is in contrast to - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10) - descriptive of a child of the devil.
Also, in 1 John 3:7-10, we see the same condition, contrast, confirmation. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin continually, because he has been born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. *Also see 1 John 2:9-11.
Furthermore, in 1 John 4:7-8, we also see this same condition, contrast, confirmation. Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. We love Him because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19) The love of God has been poured out in the hearts of believers by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:5) Are you seeing the light yet?
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Excellent question and the answer to your question is becoming more and more obvious. Speaking of helping Jesus save us, I was once in a discussion on a Christian forum with someone who also taught salvation by works and he once made this statement to me below in blue:
"It is works of obedience and not works of the law or works of merit that help save us."
Of course, that is an oxymoron and Christ does not need our help in saving us. Jesus Christ is an ALL-sufficient Savior. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed.
"It is works of obedience and not works of the law or works of merit that help save us."
Of course, that is an oxymoron and Christ does not need our help in saving us. Jesus Christ is an ALL-sufficient Savior. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed.
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The apostle John said a born again one can not live in sin. Whoever does live in sin has never seen or known God.
I am just stating what he said..
I was a prodigal son for 5 years.. I walked away from the church.. But even then, I did not LIVE IN (practice) Habitual sin. And the sins I did commit.. The lord chastened me of.. So even then, it was difficult if not impossible to continue in even those sins..
I am just stating what he said..
I was a prodigal son for 5 years.. I walked away from the church.. But even then, I did not LIVE IN (practice) Habitual sin. And the sins I did commit.. The lord chastened me of.. So even then, it was difficult if not impossible to continue in even those sins..
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So, you infallibly know this to be true? Only God infallibly knows the hearts of others. Does killing a bunch of people then taking your own life come from a regenerate heart? (1 John 3:7-10)
I have no contradiction. You just don't understand.
What kind of faith would that be? No works ever produced in one's lifetime from it?
That would not be genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. (James 2:14)
If works were a necessary part of the salvation equation, then Paul would have said that by grace we are saved through faith AND works in Ephesians 2:8,9 but that is NOT what Paul said. We are saved through faith at its origin and not at some time later, after we produce works. Works give evidence to our faith and are produced out of an already established faith. We simply show our faith by our works (James 2:18) after we have been saved through faith. (Ephesians 2:8-10)
There are no contradictions in my belief system. You just don't understand for the same reason that Roman Catholics don't understand.
That is the same excuse Roman Catholics use as well in order to "get around" the truth and accommodate their "works based" false gospel.
Your Achilles heel is not believing certain parts of the Bible. You are trying to change certain words in the Bible to fit OSAS. Just let the text speak for itself and put OSAS aside. OSAS is darkness. Only Conditional Eternal Security is true.[/QUOTE] I believe all parts of the Bible and it's not about changing certain words to fit a biased belief but about properly harmonizing scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine.
You need to put your anti-OSAS derangement syndrome aside and allow the text (in context and in harmony with the rest of scripture) to speak for itself. Works salvation is darkness. Eternal security is conditional on believing the gospel. (Ephesians 1:13-14) The true gospel which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and not a "works based" false gospel. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4; Galatians 1:6-9)
I have no contradiction. You just don't understand.
What kind of faith would that be? No works ever produced in one's lifetime from it?
That would not be genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. (James 2:14)If works were a necessary part of the salvation equation, then Paul would have said that by grace we are saved through faith AND works in Ephesians 2:8,9 but that is NOT what Paul said. We are saved through faith at its origin and not at some time later, after we produce works. Works give evidence to our faith and are produced out of an already established faith. We simply show our faith by our works (James 2:18) after we have been saved through faith. (Ephesians 2:8-10)
There are no contradictions in my belief system. You just don't understand for the same reason that Roman Catholics don't understand.
That is the same excuse Roman Catholics use as well in order to "get around" the truth and accommodate their "works based" false gospel.
Your Achilles heel is not believing certain parts of the Bible. You are trying to change certain words in the Bible to fit OSAS. Just let the text speak for itself and put OSAS aside. OSAS is darkness. Only Conditional Eternal Security is true.[/QUOTE] I believe all parts of the Bible and it's not about changing certain words to fit a biased belief but about properly harmonizing scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine.
You need to put your anti-OSAS derangement syndrome aside and allow the text (in context and in harmony with the rest of scripture) to speak for itself. Works salvation is darkness. Eternal security is conditional on believing the gospel. (Ephesians 1:13-14) The true gospel which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and not a "works based" false gospel. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4; Galatians 1:6-9)
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We are not missing it.
John 15 is about producing fruit. Its not about getting to heaven.
We should not think God is going to answer our prayers to help us produce fruit. If we are not willing to go do what he asked us to do.
Our children can be our friend if they are obeying us. And we will want to do what they ask. It they do not do what we ask they are not our friends. And good luck getting us to do what they ask
but they are still our children.
Once again. If obeying God is required to get to heaven, we are under law not grace. How many times does scripture tells us this?
John 15 is about producing fruit. Its not about getting to heaven.
We should not think God is going to answer our prayers to help us produce fruit. If we are not willing to go do what he asked us to do.
Our children can be our friend if they are obeying us. And we will want to do what they ask. It they do not do what we ask they are not our friends. And good luck getting us to do what they ask
but they are still our children.
Once again. If obeying God is required to get to heaven, we are under law not grace. How many times does scripture tells us this?
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Faith is needed for salvation. It's not about we must produce works in order to become saved but that we will produce works if we truly are saved. You put the cart before the horse, so we are not in agreement here.
What I said is not contradictory. So, is that what really bothers you? Salvation is a free gift and is received through faith in Jesus Christ alone apart from works (Romans 4:5-6) yet you seem determined to somehow want to earn eternal life based on the merits of your performance (at least in part). You want credit.
We must not be like the Pharisee in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector who trusted in himself and was confident of his own righteousness and looked down on everyone else. Remember, it was the tax collector who said, "God, have mercy on me a sinner" that went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.
Wow! You really just don't get it at all and there is a reason for that.
False. It's you who just doesn't have eyes to see.
What I said is not contradictory. So, is that what really bothers you? Salvation is a free gift and is received through faith in Jesus Christ alone apart from works (Romans 4:5-6) yet you seem determined to somehow want to earn eternal life based on the merits of your performance (at least in part). You want credit.
We must not be like the Pharisee in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector who trusted in himself and was confident of his own righteousness and looked down on everyone else. Remember, it was the tax collector who said, "God, have mercy on me a sinner" that went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.
Wow! You really just don't get it at all and there is a reason for that.
False. It's you who just doesn't have eyes to see.
Here, you make reference to James 1:21.
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.- James 1:21-22 (KJV)
We are saved solely by the engrafted Word of God, which is Jesus Christ. We cannot be saved by any other means. —selah
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.- James 1:21-22 (KJV)
We are saved solely by the engrafted Word of God, which is Jesus Christ. We cannot be saved by any other means. —selah
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- Reformed Perspective on Eternal Security:
- In Calvinism, the doctrine of eternal security, often referred to as the perseverance of the saints, is a key element. It asserts that those who are truly regenerated and have genuine faith in Christ will be preserved by God's grace and will ultimately persevere until the end. The sealing of the Holy Spirit is seen as a guarantee of this perseverance.
- Early Church Views on Eternal Security:
- While it's true that some elements of the doctrine of eternal security can be traced in the writings of certain early Christians, the formal articulation and systematic development of the doctrine, as seen in Reformed theology, became more prominent in the post-Reformation period. Augustine, an influential figure in early Christianity, did contribute to the development of certain theological concepts related to grace and predestination, but the full-fledged Calvinistic understanding of eternal security took shape later.
- Authority of Scripture:
- Calvinism, like many Protestant traditions, emphasizes the authority of Scripture as the ultimate guide for doctrine and practice. The Reformers, including John Calvin, sought to return to the primacy of biblical teachings and relied on the Scriptures as the primary source of theological understanding. The doctrine of eternal security, as formulated in Reformed theology, is derived from the interpretation of various biblical passages.
- Historical Development of Doctrines:
- The historical context is crucial in understanding the development of theological doctrines. Different theological concepts may have roots in earlier periods, but the formalization and systematic articulation often occur in response to specific theological controversies or developments.