The theif on the cross misconceptions
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I would like to add a little to the topic. The baptism according to the Bible started in the days of Moses, not Jesus Christ. Let's take a look in 1 Corinthians 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Let's dig in these verse, because we see a few things in here. We see the baptism in the days of Moses and this is because Moses was was the intercessor, between the children of Israel and God. We also see that Christ was the God back in those days and not the Father. We also should see that Jesus is now our intercessor between us and the Father, like Moses was in those days. Concerning the thief on the cross, the Bible didn't say if he was baptize or not. Jesus judge the thief on the cross according to the word of God from Genesis to himself. The thief good in life must have out weighted the bad.
I know the Word is the truth and personal experience can be coincidence and holds no doctrinal weight.
My wife and I became Christians but live in an area with no other Christians and illness prevents all travel. We were asking a brother in Christ online about baptism and the thief on the cross came up as well as death bed conversions. My wife and I both knew we had faith and the Holy Spirit and were saved by grace yet felt a desire to be baptized. After months of our human efforts, the conclusion in writing was:
"So far efforts to get a pastor to travel to us have failed. If the father needs it to happen it will eventually succeed."
Four days after putting it into the Father's hands we were both baptized. Our dog ran away and was missing several hours. Driving around everywhere we eventually heard barking deep in the woods. The nearest house occupant helped my wife to go seek out the dog who was caught by his leash on bushes deep in the woods while ill me waited in the car.
My wife shared her faith with the stranger who said you've got to meet my friends so and so. They turned out to be missionaries briefly back home going back abroad days later. They inquired if we were baptized and performed it.
My take from this is to do our best to study the Word to the best of our understanding but above all put our faith and trust in Him.
Praise and glory to Jesus!
My wife and I became Christians but live in an area with no other Christians and illness prevents all travel. We were asking a brother in Christ online about baptism and the thief on the cross came up as well as death bed conversions. My wife and I both knew we had faith and the Holy Spirit and were saved by grace yet felt a desire to be baptized. After months of our human efforts, the conclusion in writing was:
"So far efforts to get a pastor to travel to us have failed. If the father needs it to happen it will eventually succeed."
Four days after putting it into the Father's hands we were both baptized. Our dog ran away and was missing several hours. Driving around everywhere we eventually heard barking deep in the woods. The nearest house occupant helped my wife to go seek out the dog who was caught by his leash on bushes deep in the woods while ill me waited in the car.
My wife shared her faith with the stranger who said you've got to meet my friends so and so. They turned out to be missionaries briefly back home going back abroad days later. They inquired if we were baptized and performed it.
My take from this is to do our best to study the Word to the best of our understanding but above all put our faith and trust in Him.
Praise and glory to Jesus!
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I'm going to make this short. The thief was saved on that cross because (1) he repented by saying we deserve the consequences of our sins. Also, Jesus in so many words forgave the thief's sins at Luke 23:43. "And He said to him. Truly I say to you , today you shall be with Me in Paradise." In short, he was declared righteous.
Secondly, in the New Testament we are all saved by grace through faith without works according to Ephesians 2:8-9. Since the thief was saved without works, why would God make it harder in the New Testament to get water baptized in order to be saved? Finally, and this shoots a giant hole in your reasoning is at Acts 10. Starting at vs43, Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins. Vs44, While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
Vs45, And all the circumcised BELIEVERS who had come with Peter were amazed, (Why?) because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. vs46, For (or because) they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, vs47, Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have (past tense) received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" Vs48, And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ."
So here you have a model of Cornelius receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were ordered to be water baptized by Peter. And btw, it does not matter whether or not the thief was or was not water baptized under the old covenant, we simply do not know which means this argument in logic is an argument from silence.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Secondly, in the New Testament we are all saved by grace through faith without works according to Ephesians 2:8-9. Since the thief was saved without works, why would God make it harder in the New Testament to get water baptized in order to be saved? Finally, and this shoots a giant hole in your reasoning is at Acts 10. Starting at vs43, Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins. Vs44, While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
Vs45, And all the circumcised BELIEVERS who had come with Peter were amazed, (Why?) because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. vs46, For (or because) they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, vs47, Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have (past tense) received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" Vs48, And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ."
So here you have a model of Cornelius receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were ordered to be water baptized by Peter. And btw, it does not matter whether or not the thief was or was not water baptized under the old covenant, we simply do not know which means this argument in logic is an argument from silence.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
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Here's another interesting passage regarding Baptism:
1 Corinthians 12:13 NIV - "For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body--whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."
I was baptized by the Holy Spirit? Really? I thought my Baptizing pastor's name was Lynton Elwell.
Clearly, the passage above is regarding a Spiritual Baptism that could take place anywhere even if there isn't physical, bacteria-filled water available for water baptism. The Holy Spirit is Pure, thus the Spirit has the ability to make "us" Pure. Corrupt, physical water, however, is just that . . . corrupt. How can the corrupt physical world (which remains under the Adamic Curse) Purify anyone? If water Purifies, then of what use is there for Jesus? If dead water causes Spiritual Life, then why would Jesus need to be pinned to a cross to die?
Have a good day, Snacks!
1 Corinthians 12:13 NIV - "For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body--whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."
I was baptized by the Holy Spirit? Really? I thought my Baptizing pastor's name was Lynton Elwell.
Clearly, the passage above is regarding a Spiritual Baptism that could take place anywhere even if there isn't physical, bacteria-filled water available for water baptism. The Holy Spirit is Pure, thus the Spirit has the ability to make "us" Pure. Corrupt, physical water, however, is just that . . . corrupt. How can the corrupt physical world (which remains under the Adamic Curse) Purify anyone? If water Purifies, then of what use is there for Jesus? If dead water causes Spiritual Life, then why would Jesus need to be pinned to a cross to die?
Have a good day, Snacks!
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This question comes up here in various forms and each time, lines are drawn scriptural armaments are lobbed from one side to another with neither side budging.
If you really want to know what is necessary for salvation, ask yourself what you might say to Jesus when you stand before Him nose to nose and toes to toes.
Thankfully He told us what that will be like in Matthew 7:21-23. The only thing that mattered was knowing and being known of Him. According to John 17:3 this is the essence of the eternal life spoken of in John 3:16 and the reason the gospel was written according to John 20:31.
We are all cautioned to make our own calling and election sure lest having preached to others we ourselves be cast away.
If you really want to know what is necessary for salvation, ask yourself what you might say to Jesus when you stand before Him nose to nose and toes to toes.
Thankfully He told us what that will be like in Matthew 7:21-23. The only thing that mattered was knowing and being known of Him. According to John 17:3 this is the essence of the eternal life spoken of in John 3:16 and the reason the gospel was written according to John 20:31.
We are all cautioned to make our own calling and election sure lest having preached to others we ourselves be cast away.
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Gal 3:26-27 shows that by Grace through Faith, and in Baptism, we have become children of God in Christ Jesus and been clothed with Christ. Grace, Faith, Baptism, all go together. Baptism is not a Human Work, but a Divine Gift, which Christ Our Lord left to His Church, just like Holy Communion etc, which derives its efficacy from the Passion, Death and Resurrection of Christ.
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
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biblically there’s no evidence that he wasn’t baptized in fact the evidence would lean towards he had been because of this
“Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judæa, and all the region round about Jordan, and were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.”
Matthew 3:5-6
there’s no proof he was among them at the time but there’s no evidence whatsoever that he wasn’t baptized or really that he was. We know he had heard Jesus preaching the kingdom and he believed because he asks to be part of the kingdom when Jesus received his glory
so the thought would be he’s a conscious man who fears god and most likely would have been among those baptized when it says “ ll Jerusalem and the region and Jude’s went and got baptized by John
unless he came along later which again we don’t have any evidence in any way for he was likely among those baptized at the first but there’s simply no conclusive evidence either way certainly nothing to even suggest he wasn’t baptized all we can say is he wasn’t baptized while he was on the cross nothing says he couldn’t have been beforehand nd most likely he was because the whole region was getting baptized
“Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judæa, and all the region round about Jordan, and were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.”
Matthew 3:5-6
there’s no proof he was among them at the time but there’s no evidence whatsoever that he wasn’t baptized or really that he was. We know he had heard Jesus preaching the kingdom and he believed because he asks to be part of the kingdom when Jesus received his glory
so the thought would be he’s a conscious man who fears god and most likely would have been among those baptized when it says “ ll Jerusalem and the region and Jude’s went and got baptized by John
unless he came along later which again we don’t have any evidence in any way for he was likely among those baptized at the first but there’s simply no conclusive evidence either way certainly nothing to even suggest he wasn’t baptized all we can say is he wasn’t baptized while he was on the cross nothing says he couldn’t have been beforehand nd most likely he was because the whole region was getting baptized
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St. Augustine says that the Good Thief, if not already Baptized, could very well have been Baptized/Washed in that Blood and Water which flowed forth from the Lord Jesus Christ's Pierced Sacred Heart on the Cross. Whether that was the case or not, in a sense that is what happens in every baptism. As the water flows on us, the Blood is mystically applied to us, and our sins as washed away, as Acts 22:16 clearly shows.
St. Augustine: "For, to say nothing of the opinion that he might have been sprinkled with the water which gushed at the same time with the blood out of the Lord’s side,2445 as he hung on the cross next to Him, and thus have been washed with a baptism of the most sacred kind, what if he had been baptized in prison, as in after times some under persecution were enabled privately to obtain? or what if he had been baptized previous to his imprisonment? If, indeed, he had been, the remission of his sins which he would have received in that case from God would not have protected him from the sentence of public law, so far as appertained to the death of the body. What if, being already baptized, he had committed the crime and incurred the punishment of robbery and lawlessness, but yet received, by virtue of repentance added to his baptism, forgiveness of the sins which, though baptized, he had committed? For beyond doubt his faith and piety appeared to the Lord clearly in his heart, as they do to us in his words. If, indeed, we were to conclude that all those who have quitted life without a record of their baptism died unbaptized, we should calumniate the very apostles themselves; for we are ignorant when they were, any of them, baptized, except the Apostle Paul.2446 If, however, we could regard as an evidence that they were really baptized the circumstance of the Lord’s saying to St. Peter, “He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet,”2447 what are we to think of the others, of whom we do not read even so much as this,—Barnabas, Timothy, Titus, Silas, Philemon, the very evangelists Mark and Luke, and innumerable others, about whose baptism God forbid that we should entertain any doubt, although we read no record of it?" https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf105.xvii.vi.xii.html
St. Augustine: "For, to say nothing of the opinion that he might have been sprinkled with the water which gushed at the same time with the blood out of the Lord’s side,2445 as he hung on the cross next to Him, and thus have been washed with a baptism of the most sacred kind, what if he had been baptized in prison, as in after times some under persecution were enabled privately to obtain? or what if he had been baptized previous to his imprisonment? If, indeed, he had been, the remission of his sins which he would have received in that case from God would not have protected him from the sentence of public law, so far as appertained to the death of the body. What if, being already baptized, he had committed the crime and incurred the punishment of robbery and lawlessness, but yet received, by virtue of repentance added to his baptism, forgiveness of the sins which, though baptized, he had committed? For beyond doubt his faith and piety appeared to the Lord clearly in his heart, as they do to us in his words. If, indeed, we were to conclude that all those who have quitted life without a record of their baptism died unbaptized, we should calumniate the very apostles themselves; for we are ignorant when they were, any of them, baptized, except the Apostle Paul.2446 If, however, we could regard as an evidence that they were really baptized the circumstance of the Lord’s saying to St. Peter, “He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet,”2447 what are we to think of the others, of whom we do not read even so much as this,—Barnabas, Timothy, Titus, Silas, Philemon, the very evangelists Mark and Luke, and innumerable others, about whose baptism God forbid that we should entertain any doubt, although we read no record of it?" https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf105.xvii.vi.xii.html
“Baptism did not become a requirement as part of salvation until the new testament began which was after the death of Christ.”
didn’t baptism begin with John brother ?
“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
Luke 16:16
That transition happened here
“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
Mark 1:14-15
what your missing is Jesus had to first preach the gospel baptism for remission of sins is where it began
“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”
Mark 1:4 KJV
Jesus had to preach the gospel word and then after he preached he had to shed his blood for that remission of sins they were baptized into
“for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
Matthew 26:28 KJV
What I’m saying is it’s when Jesus does and rose that everything he had said and established first was put into effect it had to first be established that’s what John was about earabliskeong baptism for remission of sins preceding the messiah and the gospel being preached when he shed his blood it remitted one testament and enforced the other
so baptism hasn’t changed it’s just that the gospel has now been made known and his name is declared baptism is the same John established and for the same purpose now the name of Jesus is known
“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
Acts 2:38 KJV
Israel was waiting for the messiah to come John was saying he is about to show himself repent and get baptized for remission they were getting baptized because of what the ot said about the messiah and remission of sins and the coming gospel beforehand , we get baptized because we heard the gospel afterwards
But baptism began just before Jesus arrived to preach the word don e New Testament johns ministry is in prophecy as preparation for the messiah and his ministry his covenant see Malachi 3-4
didn’t baptism begin with John brother ?
“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
Luke 16:16
That transition happened here
“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
Mark 1:14-15
what your missing is Jesus had to first preach the gospel baptism for remission of sins is where it began
“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”
Mark 1:4 KJV
Jesus had to preach the gospel word and then after he preached he had to shed his blood for that remission of sins they were baptized into
“for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
Matthew 26:28 KJV
What I’m saying is it’s when Jesus does and rose that everything he had said and established first was put into effect it had to first be established that’s what John was about earabliskeong baptism for remission of sins preceding the messiah and the gospel being preached when he shed his blood it remitted one testament and enforced the other
so baptism hasn’t changed it’s just that the gospel has now been made known and his name is declared baptism is the same John established and for the same purpose now the name of Jesus is known
“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
Acts 2:38 KJV
Israel was waiting for the messiah to come John was saying he is about to show himself repent and get baptized for remission they were getting baptized because of what the ot said about the messiah and remission of sins and the coming gospel beforehand , we get baptized because we heard the gospel afterwards
But baptism began just before Jesus arrived to preach the word don e New Testament johns ministry is in prophecy as preparation for the messiah and his ministry his covenant see Malachi 3-4
Yes, if you cherrypick scripture and only use 1 or a few and disregard the others thst say something different or more. Scripture must be read cumulatively by considering all related scriptures pertaining to the subject at hand, otherwise, scripture would appear to conflict with itself which is mot possible. No different than if you read only one of the four gospels and disregard the rest. You read all four to get the entire message.
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