The tithe.

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B

Blackpowderduelist

Guest
#81
From what has been given to my understanding, true tithing would be akin to the tax system of the first Israel, and it amounted to ten per cent of your profit at the end of a year, not of your earnings.

Let me know how you come to think tithing is for a Christian theocracy? You responses will be welcome, and they will be interesting.

A collection plate in the assembly is for supporting the assembly at all levels, nothing more, nothing less.
I don't know where you are from, but here in America it has been very common practice to use very sketchy tactics. I have heard preachers use Joel to apply to church giving. Saying basically that of you don't give 1/10th of your gross income that you are cursed by God, but if you do God will open the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing on you. I have heard of you aren't a tither you aren't a Christian. I have also been to churches where they want you to sign a statement saying how much money you make and pledging the 10th. Those of course are the most egregious. For the most part I have just heard the law of the tithe preached as if it pertained to money and the church today.
Ironically it was a preacher who gave me his written message about tithing that caused me to have the revelation about what is going on. He wasn't refuting the tithing practice of today but he shined a bright light on what the tithe really is. He even called the church offering a fellowship offering, saying that is what the old tithe of the law actually was, because the whole feasting thing. He said the curse isn't that God is going to curse you but that if you don't give into the church eventually it won't be there, and the blessing was that the church was there for fellowship because the giving made it possible. Which is fair enough.
Anyway I like the fellowship offering concept with out the demands or the percentage tax. Just give what you can into the fellowship, and be honest about it.
This coercion into giving a 10th even if you live on a shoe string budget is just wrong.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
18,907
10,440
113
#83
If you tell people that tithing is not a law but a good way to support the church and the ministries of the church in spreading the Gospel then you have not twisted any scripture. If people don't want to do that then they don't have to.

The fact still remains that those members who believe in tithing tithe. MOST of the members who don't believe in tithing don't give squat. So with all their excellent talk about better methods of giving than tithing, they still don't give. Which means their talk is useless, and they themselves should adopt some sort of structure and budget of giving. Call it a proportion if they want, but do something.

Of course this whole conversation would not be important to the mind of the person who has given up meeting with the local church as God's method. Why would they care?
There's a simple, non-legalistic way to encourage people to give: show them the budget.

Show people how much money it takes to keep the lights on and the doors open. Show them what the total salary budget is, the expenses for power, insurance, mortgage, and various ministry costs.

Explain the value of the ministry to the individual, the family, the community, and the Kingdom.

Explain for yourself that you support the ministry of the church, and because of that choice, you support it financially by giving several (hundred, or thousand) dollars each year, as your personal budget allows. Explain that if others value the ministry, they will naturally want to do their part to support it.

Don't even mention tithing unless someone asks, then explain that it is an old covenant concept, not a Church concept.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
18,907
10,440
113
#84
If the pastor says "give as the Lord leads" and people want to give 10% that is their business. It is between them and God.
I agree completely.

People who are faithful tithers with their paychecks do so because they believe God wants them too. It is an age old tradition that they understand and that is how they plan to do it. It is not for anyone to tell them they are doing it wrong.
Nobody is a "faithful tither"; to claim such is to misunderstand what tithing is, according to the Law. People may give 10% of their income to the church, and believe that God wants them too; that is fine and, as you say, between them and God. However, it is incorrect to call it "tithing".

Especially if they say that they know that it is not a law but they want to do it that way, it would be a sin to tell them they are wrong. If they prayed and asked God what they should give and they believe that the Lord lead them to give 10% no one has a right to tell them differently.
It would not be a sin to tell them the biblical truth! The sin would be in telling them something that is not true or, for a leader, allowing people to continue believing something that is not true.

And the fact is no one who faithfully gives would ever tell another giver how to give. Only the people who don't give have advice about how not to tithe. No faithful consistent giver supporting the local assembly would ever discourage another giver from tithing.
You are simply incorrect on this matter. I generously support my local church, and I am quite willing to tell people not to "tithe" because I know that it is not a biblically sound practice.

Here's the core problem with calling the practice "tithing": confusion. Many Christians don't have the inclination to dig in Scripture and find out what it really says on the subject. They may have a general knowledge about tithing under the Law, and assume, usually because of ignorance and bad teaching, that the requirement is for Christians as well. They don't understand that tithing under the Law had almost nothing to do with money, but was essentially an income tax payable in farm products. They are unaware that there is not a single verse in Scripture telling Christians to "tithe". They conflate "giving" with "tithing", even saying things like "tithing 5%" (which is an oxymoron). Finally, they are fearful, thinking that the curse in Malachi 3 applies to them; it doesn't.

To paraphrase Jesus Himself, tradition be damned! Learn what Scripture says and do what it teaches. There is no excuse.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
19,059
5,061
113
#87
I don't know where you are from, but here in America it has been very common practice to use very sketchy tactics. I have heard preachers use Joel to apply to church giving. Saying basically that of you don't give 1/10th of your gross income that you are cursed by God, but if you do God will open the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing on you. I have heard of you aren't a tither you aren't a Christian. I have also been to churches where they want you to sign a statement saying how much money you make and pledging the 10th. Those of course are the most egregious. For the most part I have just heard the law of the tithe preached as if it pertained to money and the church today.
Ironically it was a preacher who gave me his written message about tithing that caused me to have the revelation about what is going on. He wasn't refuting the tithing practice of today but he shined a bright light on what the tithe really is. He even called the church offering a fellowship offering, saying that is what the old tithe of the law actually was, because the whole feasting thing. He said the curse isn't that God is going to curse you but that if you don't give into the church eventually it won't be there, and the blessing was that the church was there for fellowship because the giving made it possible. Which is fair enough.
Anyway I like the fellowship offering concept with out the demands or the percentage tax. Just give what you can into the fellowship, and be honest about it.
This coercion into giving a 10th even if you live on a shoe string budget is just wrong.
Thank you. All you have shared is most rasonalbe. With my experience the collection plate is strictly to give what you believe you should in order to support the assembly and its director. No specific amounts with giving according to what we are able, and if we are not we should be helped by the assembly..........
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#89
I agree completely.


Nobody is a "faithful tither"; to claim such is to misunderstand what tithing is, according to the Law. People may give 10% of their income to the church, and believe that God wants them too; that is fine and, as you say, between them and God. However, it is incorrect to call it "tithing".


It would not be a sin to tell them the biblical truth! The sin would be in telling them something that is not true or, for a leader, allowing people to continue believing something that is not true.


You are simply incorrect on this matter. I generously support my local church, and I am quite willing to tell people not to "tithe" because I know that it is not a biblically sound practice.

Here's the core problem with calling the practice "tithing": confusion. Many Christians don't have the inclination to dig in Scripture and find out what it really says on the subject. They may have a general knowledge about tithing under the Law, and assume, usually because of ignorance and bad teaching, that the requirement is for Christians as well. They don't understand that tithing under the Law had almost nothing to do with money, but was essentially an income tax payable in farm products. They are unaware that there is not a single verse in Scripture telling Christians to "tithe". They conflate "giving" with "tithing", even saying things like "tithing 5%" (which is an oxymoron). Finally, they are fearful, thinking that the curse in Malachi 3 applies to them; it doesn't.

To paraphrase Jesus Himself, tradition be damned! Learn what Scripture says and do what it teaches. There is no excuse.
I agree completely.


Nobody is a "faithful tither"; to claim such is to misunderstand what tithing is, according to the Law. People may give 10% of their income to the church, and believe that God wants them too; that is fine and, as you say, between them and God. However, it is incorrect to call it "tithing".


It would not be a sin to tell them the biblical truth! The sin would be in telling them something that is not true or, for a leader, allowing people to continue believing something that is not true.


You are simply incorrect on this matter. I generously support my local church, and I am quite willing to tell people not to "tithe" because I know that it is not a biblically sound practice.

Here's the core problem with calling the practice "tithing": confusion. Many Christians don't have the inclination to dig in Scripture and find out what it really says on the subject. They may have a general knowledge about tithing under the Law, and assume, usually because of ignorance and bad teaching, that the requirement is for Christians as well. They don't understand that tithing under the Law had almost nothing to do with money, but was essentially an income tax payable in farm products. They are unaware that there is not a single verse in Scripture telling Christians to "tithe". They conflate "giving" with "tithing", even saying things like "tithing 5%" (which is an oxymoron). Finally, they are fearful, thinking that the curse in Malachi 3 applies to them; it doesn't.

To paraphrase Jesus Himself, tradition be damned! Learn what Scripture says and do what it teaches. There is no excuse.
Though I agree with most of your previous posts on this topic my opinion is that principles in the old testament can be applied without it being an effort to earn righteousness. The economy was different and it does not matter if your a farmer that does not deal in cash or you get money you can tithe either one. Many principles can be adopted from Old Testament scriptures and applied to our present daily lives. People who believe God wants them to do something can say they are being faithful.
 
B

Blackpowderduelist

Guest
#90
There's a simple, non-legalistic way to encourage people to give: show them the budget.

Show people how much money it takes to keep the lights on and the doors open. Show them what the total salary budget is, the expenses for power, insurance, mortgage, and various ministry costs.

Explain the value of the ministry to the individual, the family, the community, and the Kingdom.

Explain for yourself that you support the ministry of the church, and because of that choice, you support it financially by giving several (hundred, or thousand) dollars each year, as your personal budget allows. Explain that if others value the ministry, they will naturally want to do their part to support it.

Don't even mention tithing unless someone asks, then explain that it is an old covenant concept, not a Church concept.
This reminds me of a church I was going to that had an ac unit stolen and it was going to cost like $10000 to replace. They held a business meeting and invited the whole church, and laid the budget right out for everyone to see. It was agreed to finance the replacement and pay it off over one year. Because people knew the need it was paid that month. Honesty works.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
18,907
10,440
113
#91
Though I agree with most of your previous posts on this topic my opinion is that principles in the old testament can be applied without it being an effort to earn righteousness. The economy was different and it does not matter if your a farmer that does not deal in cash or you get money you can tithe either one. Many principles can be adopted from Old Testament scriptures and applied to our present daily lives. People who believe God wants them to do something can say they are being faithful.
Generally, applying principles from the OT isn't a problem. Respectfully though, this one is ripped from its context. The tithe was the income tax of the day, supporting the religious system, which also served as the government, the judiciary, and the medical establishment. Consider that a significant portion of one's income is taken by (not given to!) modern-day governments for functions for which the tithe provided in ancient Israel.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#92
Generally, applying principles from the OT isn't a problem. Respectfully though, this one is ripped from its context. The tithe was the income tax of the day, supporting the religious system, which also served as the government, the judiciary, and the medical establishment. Consider that a significant portion of one's income is taken by (not given to!) modern-day governments for functions for which the tithe provided in ancient Israel.
I can see it as having a New Testament application in the spirit and from the heart when applied to our responsibility to support the work of God and the church of God. I can see the principle taught in the OT as a type or shadow of how we should support the church by each individual giving a proportion as God has prospered him.

The more we talk about it the more I believe giving 10% is an amazing principle.

I wish the IRS were to make that the rule. 10% of income, rich or poor. It would probably bring in more money to the IRS than it has ever seen and be less of a burden to every taxpayer.
 
Sep 3, 2016
6,335
527
113
#93
I do not agree, especially with last statement.
We haven't 'tithed' to a congregation for years. We remain generous to those in need as we encounter them. I will not say anymore as our works is between us and God.
A couple of weeks ago whilst at the bank sorting out some financial matters. The banker was shocked as to how our accounts looked so healthy given our current financial situation... And it's all thanks God, no curse of barrenous here, what kind of good Father would curse their own child!
Let the world do what the world does. And let the Faithful Believers place Christ and Him Crucified first in all things!! Few are found in the second one!! Matthew 7:14
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
18,907
10,440
113
#94
Let the world do what the world does. And let the Faithful Believers place Christ and Him Crucified first in all things!! Few are found in the second one!! Matthew 7:14
This response doesn't even begin to connect to the quoted post.