The Torah is Still Binding and We Must Obey It

[jamessb]

In Jeremiah 31:33, it says that the New. Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts. In Titus 2:14, it does say that Jesus gave himself to free us from the Torah, but in order to free us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from is the way to say that he died for nothing. Our salvation is from sin, which is the transgression of the Torah (Romans 3:20), so the position that Jesus did away with the Mosaic Law is the position that he did away with our salvation.

Romans 3:19-24 makes everything clear. I suggest that you read it!!!

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For no one is declared righteous before him by the works of the law, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin. But now apart from the law the righteousness of God (although it is attested by the law and the prophets) has been disclosed— namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ[aa] for all who believe. For there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But they are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

How can you not understand this??? APART FROM THE LAW!!!

 

[jamessb]

Who cares…

Every Christian should care if another believer lacks understanding!

 

[Burn1986]

Every Christian should care if another believer lacks understanding!

How do you guys keep on and on? We could argue this for days on end, and our friends and family will still be in the same situation. This arguing accomplishes nothing. So you win the stupid intellectual argument. Big deal. You’ve absolutely no impact on anything. What has it changed? But go ahead. Y’all just hammer it out.

 

[Soyeong]

You’re trying to nail it down intellectually. You don’t have to win the argument. Okay, you’re right. Now, moving on.

It's not about wining an argument, but about spreading the Gospel.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

How do you guys keep on and on? We could argue this for days on end, and our friends and family will still be in the same situation. This arguing accomplishes nothing. So you win the stupid intellectual argument. Big deal. You’ve absolutely no impact on anything. What has it changed? But go ahead. Y’all just hammer it out.

Jesus said only way to the Father is through Him. This means there is "only one way" to get to the Father. So many discussions on this forum are as simple as that but people have these weird ideas and next thing you are talking to someone saying something not found in the Bible. So for that purpose alone, and in case someone not saved is reading, you must get to the place where the Biblical fact is established.

If it's the truth either way and it's just how I see it versus how you see it, yes indeed, stop the discussion.

But in the matter of absolute Godly Truth versus human reasoning, the truth must be established and the wrong idealism must be squashed.

 

[Magenta]

I don't know why my name is attached to the above, as it was clearly written by Soyeong! (I wrote the last sentence only.)

The quote tags were messed with... it is a fixable mistake if caught within the 5 minute edit window...

 

[Magenta]

Two members here are making assumptions that you are not saved-I wouldn't dare to make such a assumption.
Have a good day.
Johann.

You did not answer my question. I wonder if you assumed I was one of those two people. Whoa. How dare you.

Another question for you: do you disagree with Paul? Was he wrong to speak against Judaizers?

 

[Dino246]

It's not about wining an argument, but about spreading the Gospel.

The only “gospel” you’re spreading is false, unfortunately.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I agree but when we sin, that sin's original definition comes from the Law. So when we sin, the Law defines it is a sin we committed. So each time we sin, the Law is there saying this is what you just did. And why the Apostle John in 1 John told us to to be faithful to confess our sins to be forgiven. Even Jesus tells us that if we say the Prayer Jesus taught us to pray (forgive us of our sins as we forgive those who have sinned against us).

right brother the law proves this it’s a prerequisite knowledge


“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

under the law this was true

“The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, And seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭14:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The law and prophets prove this that all have sinned and fallen short therefore the only salvstion is to believe the gospel that promises salvation to believers

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; ( until Christ came )and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

M Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, ( that’s what the ot law does ) that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It isn’t our law this is our law

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Not Moses word that can’t be ours understsnding of God what Jesus said needs to be how we believe about God

“Ye have heard that it hath been said, ( in Moses law ) An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

but I say unto you, ( this is our faith it’s the opposite of what Moses taught ) That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We need the mediation of Christ not the mediation of Moses is my only point they are different teo dofferent covenants we belong to God through and in Christ not Moses teo dofferent mediations of gods word for two dofferent times and peoples and purposes

and christians we have to hear and follow Jesus he will never lead us into sin if we do that which leaves the law behind he will teach us in the gospel how to live upright lives and please him who died for us

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

right brother the law proves this it’s a prerequisite knowledge


“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

under the law this was true

“The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, And seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭14:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The law and prophets prove this that all have sinned and fallen short therefore the only salvstion is to believe the gospel that promises salvation to believers

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; ( until Christ came )and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

M Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, ( that’s what the ot law does ) that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It isn’t our law this is our law

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Not Moses word that can’t be ours understsnding of God what Jesus said needs to be how we believe about God

“Ye have heard that it hath been said, ( in Moses law ) An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

but I say unto you, ( this is our faith it’s the opposite of what Moses taught ) That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We need the mediation of Christ not the mediation of Moses is my only point they are different teo dofferent covenants we belong to God through and in Christ not Moses teo dofferent mediations of gods word for two dofferent times and peoples and purposes

and christians we have to hear and follow Jesus he will never lead us into sin if we do that which leaves the law behind he will teach us in the gospel how to live upright lives and please him who died for us

Very deep, insightful, and well thought out post

 

[DRobinson]

We are still obligated to obey the Torah. It was never abolished.

Do you obey the Torah?
Be careful now!!
If you believe you do you are deceiving yourself.
To condemn others for not obeying the Torah when you do no/can not, what does that say about you?

 

[vassal]

just a general comment on this thread, not targeting anyone.

Mrk 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mrk 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

 

[Soyeong]

just a general comment on this thread, not targeting anyone.

Mrk 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mrk 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

The position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey all of the commandments than hang on them. For example, if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, murder, idolatry, kidnapping, favoritism, rape, and so forth for the rest of the Mosaic Law. It is contradictory for someone to want to follow just God's command to love while not wanting to follow His other laws for how to love.

 

[DRobinson]

The position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey all of the commandments than hang on them. For example, if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, murder, idolatry, kidnapping, favoritism, rape, and so forth for the rest of the Mosaic Law. It is contradictory for someone to want to follow just God's command to love while not wanting to follow His other laws for how to love.

Here is your misunderstanding.
It is not LAWS, but THE LAW.
If you violate any portion, you violate THE LAW.
Now tell us you do not violate THE LAW.

 

[Soyeong]

Do you obey the Torah?
Be careful now!!
If you believe you do you are deceiving yourself.
To condemn others for not obeying the Torah when you do no/can not, what does that say about you?

In Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life, so believing that we can obey the Torah is a matter of putting our faith in God's word, but that is the word of faith that you are denying.

Furthermore, the issue of whether followers of God should follow what God has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow is independent of the issue of what I am personally doing. Even if I were the biggest hypocrite in the world who was actively trying to sin as much as I could, then that would just mean that I would need to repent, but it wouldn't change the fact that followers of Christ ought to follow His example of obedience to the Torah (1 Peter 2:21-22).

 

[DRobinson]

In Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life, so believing that we can obey the Torah is a matter of putting our faith in God's word, but that is the word of faith that you are denying.

Furthermore, the issue of whether followers of God should follow what God has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow is independent of the issue of what I am personally doing. Even if I were the biggest hypocrite in the world who was actively trying to sin as much as I could, then that would just mean that I would need to repent, but it wouldn't change the fact that followers of Christ ought to follow His example of obedience to the Torah (1 Peter 2:21-22).

BUT the truth is you nor I nor anyone can keep THE LAW.

 

[montana123]

We are still obligated to obey the Torah. It was never abolished.

We are always to obey the moral laws, and laws of love, nothing wavering, for they are spiritual laws, and spiritual laws never pass away.

Jesus told the rich man he had to obey the laws of the 10 commandments that have to do with loving people to be able to enter heaven, for love is the fulfilling of the law.

The Bible points out we have to obey the laws to not offend people, and not to be a drunkard, or fornicator, for if people do that they shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul said we do not void out the law through faith, but we establish the law, which means we live up to the law by obeying the law.

Paul said the law is spiritual, holy, just, and good, so they are always to be obeyed for they are spiritual laws.

The Bible says a Spirit led person will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, for they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, and show the ways of the Spirit and not the flesh.

When the Bible says a Spirit led person is not under the law it means their sins are forgiven, and they are abstaining from sin, so the law cannot touch them for prosecution.

If we are led of the Spirit and we sin we are back under the law until it is forgiven.

Also love is the fulfilling of the law which charity does not think an evil thought, and does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth to abstain from sin led by the Spirit.

So a person led by the Spirit will obey the moral laws, laws of love.

If they do not obey the moral laws, laws of love, then that is not love so their faith is no good, for love is greater than faith and faith works by love.

Love will not sin and if a person holds unto sin then that is not love then their faith does not count for salvation.

Love will obey the law and not make an excuse they are alright despite their sins.

Jesus took the physical ordinances of Israel out of the way nailing them to His cross for they were contrary to us for they had no bearing on salvation which let no person judge you in the physical ordinances.

So we do not have to obey the physical laws of Israel, but we always have to obey the spiritual laws of Israel, moral laws, laws of love.

For to not obey those laws is not love then no faith.

Paul, James. and John, all point this out which Paul said without charity he is nothing, and people erred from the faith, and James said without charity their faith is dead, and John said without charity the love of God does not dwell in them.

Which John said do not love in word, neither in tongue, but by deeds, works, and truth, which is why James said a person is justified by works and not faith alone.

For love can only be valid if it is done in works, which no works of love no faith.

Love will not sin, and will have works of love, and will obey the law that is spiritual.

 

[Soyeong]

Here is your misunderstanding.
It is not LAWS, but THE LAW.
If you violate any portion, you violate THE LAW.
Now tell us you do not violate THE LAW.

The Mosaic Law contains 613 laws. If we violate any portion of the law, then we become a lawbreaker and need to repent and return to obedience through faith. God's law came with instructions for what to His children sinned, so it never required us to have perfect obedience. The fact that we can repent after we have sinned and still be saved even when we have not had perfect obedience again demonstrates that it was not a requirement for us. It is only a requirement for someone to have perfect obedience if they are going to give themselves to pay the penalty for the sins of the world, otherwise the rest of us are able to have our sins forgiven.

BUT the truth is you nor I nor anyone can keep THE LAW.

The truth is that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and that is the word of faith that I proclaim. There are many examples in the Bible of people who did keep God's law, such as with those in Joshua 22:5, Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14.

 

[timemeddler]

Galations 3:19-20 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

The law was made as a rulebook to prevent sins. It's more like guidelines than actual rules for us, we should be concerned with the sinfully behavior the law was written to prevent, not cling to it verbatim.

 

[DRobinson]

The Mosaic Law contains 613 laws. If we violate any portion of the law, then we become a lawbreaker and need to repent and return to obedience through faith. God's law came with instructions for what to His children sinned, so it never required us to have perfect obedience. The fact that we can repent after we have sinned and still be saved even when we have not had perfect obedience again demonstrates that it was not a requirement for us. It is only a requirement for someone to have perfect obedience if they are going to give themselves to pay the penalty for the sins of the world, otherwise the rest of us are able to have our sins forgiven.


The truth is that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and that is the word of faith that I proclaim. There are many examples in the Bible of people who did keep God's law, such as with those in Joshua 22:5, Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14.

Question---
Do you keep the Sabbath as required in the Torah?